How to evacuate a city....NOT

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:57 am

All I'm saying is that it took too long to get food and water to two large groups of people. I find it unacceptable.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:40 am

Vander wrote:All I'm saying is that it took too long to get food and water to two large groups of people. I find it unacceptable.

Exactly, I'm in South Carolina and can't fly a helocopter and yet I was probably closer to airlifting porta potty's, tents, food and water to those people than any government agency was for at least a couple of days!! How ★■◆●ing hard can it be?!?!

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:58 am

It is funny, through recorded history, that the first thing a military operation did when setting up camp was to dig latrines. So knowing you were going to set up "camp" in a facility that was going to house 25,000 people, wouldn't one make sure there was a backup plan for the latrines?
I don't know who was in charge of the Super Dome, but it damn sure wasn't someone with field experience in military campaigns.

TheCope · Post by **TheCope** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:00 am

Vertigo 99 wrote:for the record, kayne west isn't pop music, quite the contrary. right or wrong, i really think he's just expressing his opinion - he gives a minimal **** about capitalizing off of it.

Yea right.
Anyone who would pull that ★■◆● during a national crisis is a kunt. The fact that he is a computer dependant talk a lot wanker just makes it 50,000 times worse. He canâ??t actually do anything with his hands.

He is a slob ★■◆● criticizing a rescue effort that he could never pilot. He canâ??t play a piano, yet, he can run a rescue operation on a destroyed American city? Right. He is an opportunistic kuntâ?¦ say it to yourself.. and say it loud. ★■◆● ass piece of ★■◆●ing garbage.

I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror if I pulled that ★■◆●.

Palzon · Post by **Palzon** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:38 pm

it's funny how around here a thread about taunt profanity must be locked down at five pages but this thread is languishing.

considering this is probably the largest domestic crisis in any of our lifetimes it's a bit disappointing that you all don't have more to say.

in the interest of keeping this discussion alive I'll throw you this:

The sign on Truman's desk read: "The buck stops here."

I think the sign on Bush's desk reads: "The buck stops anywhere but here."

By this, I'm not saying that this is all Bush's fault or even the fault of his adminstration. But when you are the commander-in-chief, leadership means taking responsiblity for what happens on your watch.

Brown should be fired. Period. I will lose my mind if Brown gets some kind of Medal of Freedom.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:55 pm

I fear you will lose your mind, Palzon. With history as a guide, we can hypothesize that Brown will fail upward, and be promoted to head of DHS.

What else is to be expected when the Bush administration appoints people with no disaster response/recovery experience to head the disaster response/recovery agency. It shows an utter lack of understanding how good government can be achieved.

The Bush administration will never take responsibility. It's their major political tactic. They only talk in white (positive) language about their actions. Black (negative) language is reserved solely for opponents. This, of course, is a guiding principle of public relations, not singularly applicable to the Bush administration. They just taken the art to a whole new level.

*edit -

And wtf is this?

The president of Jefferson Parish in New Orleans, Aaron Broussard on Meet the Press Sunday Morning:

Three quick examples. We had Wal-Mart deliver three trucks of water. FEMA turned them back. They said we didnâ??t need them. This was a week ago. FEMA, we had 1,000 gallons of diesel fuel on a Coast Guard vessel docked in my parish. When we got there with our trucks, FEMA says donâ??t give you the fuel. Yesterday â?? yesterday â?? FEMA comes in and cuts all of our emergency communication lines. They cut them without notice. Our sheriff, Harry Lee, goes back in, he reconnects the line. He posts armed guards and said no one is getting near these linesâ?¦

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Meet-t ... ussard.mov

I can think of logical, if wrong, reasons why FEMA may have done the first two examples, but the third? Why the ★■◆● would they cut communication lines?

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:13 pm

DCrazy wrote:Hindsight would have also dictated that cutting corners on the WTC construction was a bad idea (the Port Authority of NY and NJ, which built the buildings, exempted itself from NYC building codes which would have required them to better fireproof the building -- their argument was that they were a bi-state agency and above local zoning laws).

For the record DCrazy: I sat in on a 2-hour lecture by the NY State Chief Civil Engineer's department (forget his name sorry) and these are the facts:

1) The concrete core of the WTC **WAS** well protected against fire.
2) Concrete simply burns when it reaches 1500 degrees C.
3) Steel loses more than 70% of its strength at 1700 degrees C. It doesn't melt, but the pins and plates which attached the floors to the double-skinned walls simply give up their structural duty.
4) The tower's design was never intended to withstand the intense avgas-fuelled fire, coupled with the support-destroying impacts. (The impacts themselves didn't overload the building: it was less than 5% of the pressure-loading the towers were built to withstand.)
5) 60,000 litres of avgas in the building created temperatures in excess of 1700 degrees C.
6) The initial impact and explosion striped the fire-proofing from the concrete core at the impact site.
7) Even if the fireproofing had not been stripped the outcome would have remained the same: both buildings would have fallen.

The construction technique used on the WTC was extraordinarily strong. The fact the buildings survived the initial hit - the destruction of vast amounts of the double-skinned bracing exterior walls is a fantastic tribute to its robust design.
9) The fact the buildings remained standing as long as they did is yet another tribute to the design and construction of the towers.
10) There's no sky-scarper in the world that would survive what the WTC went through. Many would collapse within just a handful of minutes.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 4:56 pm

Palzon wrote:leadership means taking responsiblity for what happens on your watch.

Well said!

Vander, I have that video hosted on my webspace if you would like to see it.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:16 pm

Vander wrote:I can think of logical, if wrong, reasons why FEMA may have done the first two examples, but the third? Why the **** would they cut communication lines?

They didn't cut them as in, lets disconnect these locals...they cut them to tie in their own system. Not that that was the right thing to do but just trying to keep it in perspective. They weren't sabatours, they were dumbass feds barging in like bulls.

FEMA hasn't shown much to be happy with here, in fact nothing is more like it.

But I wonder, since the mayors evacuation plan didn't even include using public transportation to move the poor people out, did he even have a plan to move them at all?
Did he even really try to get them out?
If so what did he plan to move them with?

And since every model and paper written since the '80's on the subject of a Cat.5 storm making a direct hit specifically foretold of thousands trapped for days without food or water by floodwaters, including those at the superdome, why the ★■◆● did he not have public transportation in his evacuation plan?!?! Or, better yet, why the ★■◆● didn't they have a plan to get to the people they knew they were going to be leaving behind?!?

I'd love to see someone ask him and the governor a few questions like that!

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:18 pm

'cut them to tie in their own system'

o_0

why?

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:46 pm

"They didn't cut them as in, lets disconnect these locals.."

Where did you hear this? I haven't found anything more about it than what that guy said. I'd love to see.

I agree. They should've had a plan to use public transportation, and if they did have a plan, they should've used it. It's either a failure of planning, or a failure of action. Maybe even both.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:22 pm

Ferno wrote:'cut them to tie in their own system'

o_0

why?

Logic was probably so that citizens jamming the phone grid didn't make it impossible for authorities to contact each other.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:24 am

the authorities would only use the phone?

uhm, don't they have VHF radios and other ways of doing that?

something doesn't add up.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:51 am

Palzon wrote:considering this is probably the largest domestic crisis in any of our lifetimes it's a bit disappointing that you all don't have more to say.

I think people are still in shock, even here on this board as to whats developing in the gulf. I hope the the States sets up some kind of commission to find out what went wrong over the last week or so. If they don't we'll see a repeat performance when the next one strikes, or when LA and San Fransisco fall down a big hole.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:19 am

Vander wrote:"They didn't cut them as in, lets disconnect these locals.."

Where did you hear this? I haven't found anything more about it than what that guy said. I'd love to see.

I agree. They should've had a plan to use public transportation, and if they did have a plan, they should've used it. It's either a failure of planning, or a failure of action. Maybe even both.

I wish I could link to it but it was just the way I heard the incident reported on TV, that the reason they cut into the lines was to connect their own system. I'm not sure if the person reporting it even knew if the fed's intent was to merge their capabilities and leave the locals line intact and failed or that they just intended to replace the locals system with their own...either way they just barged in and screwed up.

I also saw the Louisiana state plan for evacuation and it specifically stated that public transportation (specifically buses) should be used to move those without means. It even said that cities, towns and parishes that have an evacuation plan are required to make that provision a part of their plan!
Yet a few weeks before the storm I also read that the mayor announced that their was not enough money to move the citizens out of harms way in event of a storm and that "everyone was on their own" if a storm comes their way!

I can't help but wonder, if there is no money to move the people, how much money will it cost to repair or replace the hundreds of buses and police vehicles that were left in the parking lots to be flooded that could have been used to move at least some, if not all, the sick and elderly out of town and thus saved the buses and police vehicles from the flood because one would think they wouldn't have parked them back in the flood zone once the evacuation procedures had to stop due to weather!!!!

It's no surprise to me that the guilty parties are screaming race as the reason because it's the only shiney object they can muster that might deflect the blame they know they deserve.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:57 am

Will Robinson wrote:It's no surprise to me that the guilty parties are screaming race as the reason because it's the only shiney object they can muster that might deflect the blame they know they deserve.

Sadly enough, your right. IMME, the whole thing reeks of political agendas with not a care for the Americans involved...friggin' bastards!

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:45 am

Will Robinson wrote:It's no surprise to me that the guilty parties are screaming race as the reason because it's the only shiney object they can muster that might deflect the blame they know they deserve.

x2, Will. It's frosting the hell out of me that the media is trying to lay all of this on GWB's doorstep. Yeah, I'll bet we can eventually find fault with some of the federal activities here, but I'm betting that an honest evaluation of the failings in this area will fall (and should fall)much more heavily on the shoulders of the commissions and omissions of the governor of Louisiana and the mayor of New Orleans and other local officials for their failure to plan effectively when the shtf finally. People's expectations in this situation have been all out of proportion with the facts and the law. This is one thing that the news media has failed to report on and is at least a dereliction of their ethical responsibilty to inform the public of the facts.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:56 am

From what I've seen so far it looks like FEMA, under Bush's new appointee's direction, had them use old boiler plate tactics and that caused them to ignore specific plans that they had recently put together to deal with a storm in that particular location.
FEMA, and Bush by chain of command, caused the federal response to stumble out of the gate.
However, the locals put far too many of their people and resources at risk by basically deciding they just couldn't do anything! Then the governor decided she needed 24 hours to think about it when Bush asked if she wanted him to take over...

Now consider that the New Orleans police chief was complaining that when the hand held police radio batteries went dead they had "no juice to charge them back up with" !!! WTF?!? Hey Chief!! Can you say generator?!
Local Plan = Wait for Fed's to notice bodies piling up.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:01 am

I thought the American media were doing quite nicely actually. Usually they come across as though they're scared of asking the government tough questions. Not so in the last week.

EDIT: and then i came across this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4214516.stm

Iceman · Post by **Iceman** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:25 am

Birdseye wrote:It looks like everyone was caught with their pants down, including bush. The cities themselves weren't prepared, the counties weren't, states weren't, and the feds weren't.

Like the Tsunami, it took a disaster of this proportion to wake up the affected region. Sad but true. I don't think the blame game solves much, we should send money to the poor and figure out how to clean this up... then we can figure out how to prevent it.

Birdseye [again] hit the nail on the head. What happened is worse than if an American city had been hit by a nuclear bomb. It is an unprecedented event of scope so large that we had no clue what to do when it happened. Now I see so many people [including several on this BBS] trying to use these poor victims as ammunition for their own political agendas. That disappoints me so much.

Let me ask those of you that are trying to play this political blame game this ... How many of you have gotten off your @$$ and done something to help? How many of you have taken the time to donate your money (or better yet, your TIME) to help these desparate folks instead of bitching and whining about how its your political opponent's fault?

Our government cannot possibly fix this problem by itself. The only way for these people to recover and find any sense of normalcy in their lives is for THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA to band together to help. That means packing trucks full of supplies, taking leave from work, and transporting the stuff down there. That means we take our vacation time and go down there with construction crews to repair damaged homes and the like. That means that we host individuals or families in our own homes, feed them, clothe them, all with our own personal entertainment budget money. That means we help those that have lost everything assimilate into our own economies by helping them find jobs in our own towns.

Really guys, quit using these people for your own gain. Get off your whining @$$e$ and do something constructive. Don't tell me you don't have the money or the time to do this. You certainly can afford a PC and you certainly have time to play games and post on BBSes. Those are all cop-out answers. The only way this problem is going to go away is if we QUIT BEING SO SELFISH, GET OUT OF OURSELVES, and GET PROACTIVE IN HELPING THESE POOR FOLKS.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:38 am

The local authorities dropped the ball, perhaps criminally. It's plain enough to see. That does NOT lessen the Federal government's responsibility to deliver aid as quickly as possible.

By Monday night - Tuesday morning, everyone watching CNN knew this was a disaster of epic proportions. Yet it was another two to three days before real relief started to arrive.

This is FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security. They're charged with responding to catastrophic disasters. If this had been a terrorist attack with no warning, would anyone find it acceptable that it took two to three days for real relief efforts to arrive?

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:43 am

Flabby Chick wrote:I thought the American media were doing quite nicely actually. Usually they come across as though they're scared of asking the government tough questions. Not so in the last week.
EDIT: and then i came across this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4214516.stm

ahh...American media...

hey, would that be the same news thats aired nightly thats always leaning heavily toward the left?...hmmm, wonder who owns those news twisting companies anyways?

I have donated all the money from my link card this month($150 worth of beans, cereal, and can goods) as well as started a small drive within the apartment complex that I take care of. Every time I think of the severity of this I get a soul-shiver...my sadness grows each day as my eyes grow weary of the bitterness I see within the human race. At times I feel that the only solution would be the perfect practice of perfected eugenics, worldwide.

Iceman · Post by **Iceman** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:56 am

Sigh @ Vander ...

Will : Good for you. It may seem insignificant only being able to contribute $150 but ... If every person in America would do what you did that would add up to 45 billion dollars. From what I am hearing on the news that would cover roughly half of the cleanup effort.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:05 pm

"Usually they come across as though they're scared of asking the government tough questions. Not so in the last week."

I was so surprised last week. A couple notables I saw from last week:

Anderson Cooper - he gave the back of his hand to LA's Senator Landreau(D) who was cheerily praising the relief response which clearly hadn't arrived. Cooper than got uppity with Trent Lott, after Lott tried to call bull★■◆● on a question Cooper said he was passing on from a survivor. Cooper wasn't having any of it.

Sheppard Smith (and I guess, sigh, Geraldo) - Smith and Rivara were reporting for Hannity and Combs. Hannity tried to interject a hair of positive spin, and Smith just cut him off and basically said 'look behind me, do you see any relief efforts?' This was on Friday I think. It was shocking to see Fox personalities not in complete lockstep with on another.

As far as the media as a whole is concerned, I think they got an up close look at the difference between reality and what they're told by spinners in government, and they didn't like it.

Why sigh, Ice? Is my thinking wrong?

*edit - Oh, n/m. I see that I'm selfishly using these poor people to advance my... whatever.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:23 pm

It does seem insignificant Ice, but the overwhelming thought is..."If I don't do it, who will?"

A few posts ago I asked who where the Southerners...now I'm asking..who are the humans among you?

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:42 pm

Even if every American donated a mere $10, that would be $300 million going to relief efforts. My guess is that almost every American, no matter how "downtrodden" and "oppressed" will be able to donate $10. This is America's chance to show that hitting one part of the country, whether by terrorism, natural disaster, or combination thereof, is futile, as the rest of the country will pick up the people affected by the tragedy and put them back on their feet.

Let me state this once, in the clearest possible manner: SCREW THE POLITICS. Right now, it doesn't really matter whether Bush, Gore, Bin Laden, the mayor of NO, global warming, or small furry rodents trying to erect wind tunnels in the middle of the Atlantic are responsible for this disaster. What matters is helping the people down there.

When this is all over, sure, by all means, play the blame game. Until everyone has been reestablished, preferably in a new city in a new, safer location, I think we could at least shut up about the politics and help the people affected by this. I'm donating money. I'm donating a lot more than $10, despite having absolutely no income. And I'm not going to start pointing fingers at politicians until these people are out of the refugee camps.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:50 pm

I'm multi-tasking. In addition to sending cash and orginizing material donations (mostly clothing and stuff for kids) I'm also venting my frustration at the officials who are supposed to be responsible for the evacuation of their constituents.

I've lived through numerous hurricanes and if my city/state officials did to my neighbors what these bozo's did to the people in New Orleans I would be mad at them a hell of a lot more than at FEMA if it was also day late with the recovery efforts. That distinction isn't being made in the press and I can't imagine any other motive than partisan politics on a national level and for that I've got a few moments to spare. I'm bi-sensative, I can give to the needy and give hell to the asshats at the same time

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:56 pm

If you don't want to read about politics and such, you have my permission to stop reading my posts.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:56 pm

Stryker and Will Rob'....you both are giants among men.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:58 pm

oh, and Vander, I believe he is referring to political agendas of the press or what have you...

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:08 pm

Well, I think the press should have the political agenda of the people, and last week, I was fairly impressed.

Palzon · Post by **Palzon** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:21 pm

Unless, at this moment, you hold political office, are a relief worker, or are volunteering time - i'm pretty sure that right now in the E/C forum is the time and place to discuss the politics of this.

sorry there is no way to whitewash this so that the federal government looks good. sorry there is no way to make this is a grey issue. sorry that there is sand in you pu$$y.

sorry if your city is next to wait five days for the federal government to even come close to adequate relief.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:26 pm

Vander wrote:Well, I think the press should have the political agenda of the people, and last week, I was fairly impressed.

they were only doing that to make his admin look bad bro', those harpees were basically dogs of the leash @ the approval of their owners....and I hate Bush BTW.

edit: Hate is such a strong and sometimes offensive word, how 'bout we just say I don't care for his type..

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:56 pm

"they were only doing that to make his admin look bad bro'"

If you want to hang your hat on the "liberal media" canard to explain negative reaction to the Federal response, I suppose that's your prerogative. I won't waste my time with it.

Sirian · Post by **Sirian** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:58 pm

"What went wrong" is pretty obvious: RECORD storm surge. No storm has ever pushed that much water up on to the land in our recorded history.

People who thought their first floor would flood drowned in their attics. People who thought their three story apartment building would still be there were smashed to pieces. People who thought this would be a wind event like Andrew or Camille were overwhelmed. ... Then the levees broke in New Orleans and the pumps failed, ensuring the waters there could not recede or be removed.

The criminal element in there somehow managed to STOP many of the responders by firing a few shots at them. Like... we ain't willing to shoot back at ****ing PSYCHOPATHIC CRIMINALS because that would violate their civil rights (or some other BS) so let's all sit on our ashes for two days, pointing fingers.

The fact that the storm "dropped" to a Cat4 at the last minute lulled people in to a false sense of security. I was cursing my TV at reporters who were reporting that New Orleans "got lucky again". Stupid ***holes. NOBODY WAS LISTENING TO THE WEATHER PEOPLE. They -told- these dopes and everybody in the city, BEFORE the storm hit, that the area would "uninhabitable for weeks", that "all wooden structures will fail", and that even some skyscrapers may collapse.

People just weren't listening. They couldn't wrap their minds around the concept of a 30 foot storm surge, even though they were told it was coming.

The failure here was cultural more than anything else. Arrogance, hubris -- insufficient respect for the power of the storm, from top to bottom, the government, the local authorities, and the residents.

How ****ing intelligent do you have to be to realize that it doesn't matter how many "near misses" your regions has had. If you evacuate your sorry ash out of there nineteen times and they are all false alarms, you better git your ash on up out of there the twentieth time, too, because you only get to gamble and lose once. Then you are dead.

People were warned. They just didn't take it seriously. Now they all want to blame the government, but they need to get a grip. No government can save you from your own stupidity.

There could have been a mob of poor people, or at least their elected representatives, beating down the doors in the halls of power, shouting about how ain't nobody cares about the poor and the sick because there's no organized evacuation plan to get them all out of danger. ... Nobody saw the need, or those who did were shunted aside by others competing for the money.

Live and learn. We as a culture screwed this one up. We blew it. Let's make sure we don't blow it again.

It's the same as the Chicago Fire, which burnt down most of that city. The SanFran quake. The factory fire that killed a thousand. Bridges that collapsed under too much weight. Train wrecks. Lawnmowers that chopped off somebody's foot when they slipped and fell. Household cleaners and prescription drugs that killed babies who got in to them.

Mistakes get made. We learn from them. We try to do better next time.

Lay off the partisanship and finger pointing and just resolve to insist from our leadership that they learn all the lessons of this catastrophe and not let it happen again.

- Sirian

Palzon · Post by **Palzon** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:08 pm

look sirian, the only partisanship occurring here is the people trying to blatantly ignore responsibility of the federal government. The only thing that people on this board "can't wrap their mind around" is that the federal government is not perfect under the control of bush.

The only political "fallout" I have suggested is that Brown be fired. He is ABSOLUTELY responsible for the federal government's failure to provide rescue/relief in a timely fashion. I am not blaming bush personally for the failure.

And the biggest message i have tried to convey is getting the current job done and learning from the mistakes.

Vander has been even less vocal than i. So who exactly here has is the partisan one?

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:57 pm

"The only political "fallout" I have suggested is that Brown be fired. He is ABSOLUTELY responsible for the federal government's failure to provide rescue/relief in a timely fashion. I am not blaming bush personally for the failure."

I'll plead guilty to playing the partisan card. I think Bush is absolutely responsible for Brown being head of FEMA. What qualifications did he have to be the head of FEMA? A loyal Republican? A friend of the old head of FEMA? It certainly wasn't his history as an effective manager of natural disasters.

I'll gladly be the a$$hole that points this out.

Iceman · Post by **Iceman** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:20 pm

Let me clarify my point ... If you were truly concerned about the welfare of the people involved then you would be proactive and doing everything you could to help them. I believe that this is simply a partisian bickering match. Otherwise you guys would be trying to help.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:47 pm

will_kill wrote:I have donated all the money from my link card this month($150 worth of beans, cereal, and can goods) as well as started a small drive within the apartment complex that I take care of[and live in].

I'm really too poor to do anymore without jeopardizing my own family...

on second thought I could give up my internet connect for a year or so...hmmm

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:21 pm

Vander I hope you are taking a more pre-ponderant view of LA's governor as she was responsible for the welfare of her citizens and for calling out the national guard. Compare LA's Super Dome debacle to the Huston Astro Dome's orderliness and you can see a case study in how things can be run. As the Texas Governor said for the well order regimen at the Astro Dome, "Corpus Christi is on the Gulf also and we had a plan for evacuating it".

Here's one for you Ice. How do we know how well and where will our donated money go. Will it go mostly to the poor citizens or is it going to go to building and repairing commercial interests and the more well to do...both of which are probably covered by some sort of insurance. I'd like to see some kind of proposed breakdown as to how all this money will be spent.