Muslims

[Avder]

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/698

Hmm.

[Shoku]

It should not surprise anyone that when people are taught the following edicts from childhood there is going to be problems:

“Fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight against you. . . .Kill them wherever they confront you in combat and drive them out. . . Fight against them until there is no more disorder and Allah's supremacy is established. “ Surah 2: 190 -193

“What is the matter with you, why are you divided into two groups concerning the hypocrites, while Allah has cast them off on account of their misdeeds? Do you wish to guide those, whom Allah has left to stray? Whomever Allah lets go astray, you cannot find a way for them to be guided. Their real wish is to see that you become a disbeliever, as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may become equal to them. So, you should not take friends from their ranks unless they immigrate in the way of Allah; and if they do not, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take any of them as protectors or helpers (friends).” Surah 4: 88,89

“O Prophet! Tell the unbelievers that if they desist from unbelief, their past shall be forgiven; but if they persist in sin, let them reflect upon the fate of their forefathers. O believers, fight them until there is no more mischief and the Deen of Allah (way of life prescribed by Allah) is established completely.” Surah 8:38,39

“”Let not the unbelievers think that they have won the game; surely they can never frustrate the believers. Muster against them all military strength and Calvary that you can afford so that you may strike terror into the hearts of your enemy and the enemy of Allah, and others besides them who are unknown to you but known to Allah.” Surah 8: 59, 60

“I will cast panic into the hearts of the unbelievers, therefore, smite their necks and beat every joint of their bodies. This is because they defied Allah and His Rasool. Whoever defies Allah and His Rasool should know that Allah is strict in retribution, that is the reality, so taste it, and there will also be the torture of hellfire for the unbelievers. O believers! When you encounter the unbelievers in battle, never turn your backs to them, and whoever turns his back to them on such an occasion – unless it be a strategy of war, or to join towards a detachment – shall incur the wrath of Allah and his abode shall be hell, and how awful shall be that dwelling! In fact, it was not you who killed them, but it was Allah Who killed them; it was not you who threw the handful of sand, but it was Allah Who threw it so that He might pass the believers successfully through this excellent trial.” Surah 8: 12-17

“O Prophet! Rouse the believers to prepare for combat.” Surah 8:65

“When the forbidden months (10,11,12 &1 of the Islamic calendar) are over, then fight the mushrikeen (unbelievers, idolaters) wherever you find them, seize them, besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.” Surah 9:5

“Fight those people of the Book (Jews and Christians) who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, do not refrain from what has been prohibited by Allah and his Rasool, and do not embrace the religion of truth (Al-Islam), until they pay Jizyah (protection tax) with their own hands and feel themselves subdued.” Surah 9:29

“O Prophet! Make Jihad against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be firm against them.” Surah 9:73

O believers! Fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them know how strong you are; you should know that Allah is on the side of the God-fearing.” Surah 9:123

I know there is nothing comparable in the Bible to this deliberate insistence on hatred and retaliation.
Which may be why the West is so different from the Middle East.

[Will Robinson]

There's been considerable progress made in western cultures in recent centuries in reigning in their fundamentalist whacko's.

An important change that the followers of Islam have failed to implement and I'm tired of making excuses for them. My patience for that line of thinking ran out completely on Sept. 11 2001.

I wonder...

How do you reconcile your stance with the fact that in WWII we waged wholesale warfare against civilian populations? We killed more innocent civilians in any given boming run on a major city than all terrorists of all time combined. no shiz.

Now, I am not saying we shouldn't fight terrorists with military force. I'm just supporting Kilarin's position that we don't exactly have the right to call foul. I mean after all, if Rummy himself admits that you go to war with the army you've got, not the one you want - how can we blame them for waging war the most effective way they can?

what do you expect them to do - array their guys in neat little rows so we can mow them down from 10,000 feet before they can fire a shot?

you should try reading Saul Alinsky's Rule's for Radicals. One doesn't always have much of choice when picking tactics.

I've made similar comments here in the past but your stance in this thread makes me think it's worth restating. This seems to me like more of grey area than you'd like to admit.

Once we go to war all bets are off, war is war so comparing our behavior in war to their behavior day to day isn't the same...and if they want to rationalize that they are always at war then I'd say they have no right to complain about anything the enemy has done during their perpetual war!

I'm indicting their culture as a whole and holding them to what I would call modern global community standards. Those standards would say that if you raise your kids to be beligerants then we will treat your whole culture as a beligerent entity...

The big difference between our two cultures is what do you teach the children during peace time, what do you aspire to in your relationships with your global neighbors, etc.
Western cultures try to make room for all religions and allow every person to speak out. The very laws we live by specify tolerance of all views. Nazi's are allowed to set up shop and march on our streets!

Islam teaches their children they should never stop fighting against the infidels. I believe I've posted links to the school books used in Saudi Arabia here before so this isn't just my opinion of what they do.
Just because you can find a few Imams living safely in the west who preach a gentler kinder version and will denounce their counterparts in the middle east doesn't mean that the majority of Muslims aren't brought up learning to accept the role East
It's not the radicals over there that keep the whole culture down, it's the whole culture that has decided to stay where they were and that leads to the radicals having a much more important voice over there.
Here Timothy McViegh or Eric Rudolph don't gather much of a following because the observers of their lessons see the U.S. and realize that those guys are whacko's!
Over there in the middle east the islamo-fascist whacko message isn't so foreign to what the observers know to be the way things are. Their culture is a fertile foundation for a whacko to raise his crops in.

Where the king of england failed to keep the people down by controlling the message in the church the king's and warlords in the middle east succeeded in stifling progress by allowing the clerics to write the laws and set the standards for education and societal behavior etc..
The religious leaders and the warlords/shieks/political leaders have kept the culture from advancing. You can't completely absolve the people from the blame in enabling them to do that unless you think western people are somehow superior and the middle eastern people are in capable of seeking to advance. I don't think we are inherently superior so I blame the middle eastern people for becoming what they are. Now that the world is no longer seperated by the logistics of travel and language and economies they are a problem to us all.

[CUDA]

is not an embassy soveriegn ground to what ever nation holds it. so is this an act of war, I understand it wasnt the syrian Government that did this but OMG over a cartoon?

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Rage against caricatures of Islam's revered prophet poured out across the Muslim world Saturday, with aggrieved believers calling for executions, storming European buildings and setting European flags afire.

Hundreds of Syrian demonstrators have stormed the Danish Embassy in Damascus, and they've set fire to the building.

The building that's been set on fire in the Syrian capital also houses the embassies of Chile and Sweden.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183812,00.html

[Mobius]

This is symptomatic of a religion in crisis. Bearing placards which confidently say \"Behead those who insult Islam\" is a barbaric and medieval response to a newspaper cartoon.

Holy Shiz, thank goodness the Christian faith got over itself a long time ago. Church dogma and doctrine had to change with the times, or become obsolete.

Islam simply didn't change, and and the effect has been to make its followers obsolete. Obsolete, stupid, and violent. Yeah.

I guess I'm due a beheading now.

[Dedman]

Hmmmm, let's see. I will protest your political satire cartoon implying that I am violent by setting fire to your embassy. Yeah, that's the ticket.

And so many wonder why we here in the west don't view Islam as a peacefull religion.

[roid]

...Islam teaches their children they should never stop fighting against the infidels...

Just WHO is telling you these rediculously incorrect blanket statements?

If i travel north into Indonesia (population is 88% Muslim) i know that i will be treated well. How is this possible if everyone is taught to fight against me? It's not possible. Because your blanket statement is wrong!

[Weyrman]

A bit of food for thought.
Western civilization has, basically, seperated church from state. Today, in the west, religion is considered to be an \"option extra\" to life, while in Islamic countries, relgion IS life. For the most, they consider that to be arabic is to be moslem, one and the same in their eyes.

In the same way, they consider that to be western is to be Christian. On the whole they do not understand the concept of life without religion. From this viewpoint, they then look at the worst of decadence, (often what hollywood/media shows them) and connot reconcile what they see with what they believe that the Christianity teaches and therefore often despise us, not only for not being Moslem, and therefore considered Infidels, but also for not living the \"Christian\" life. Not practicing what we preach!

This was told to me by a christian missionary who works in Egypt. He said this is the most common veiwpoint held about the west.

[Shoku]

Just WHO is telling you these rediculously incorrect blanket statements?

The Quran is telling them to have the above mentioned attitude, just read the quotes I posted above.

[Kilarin]

Islam slaughtered everything in it's path that would not convert.

So did Christianity during much of it's reign.

I'm just supporting Kilarin's position that we don't exactly have the right to call foul.

I'd like to clarify my point. I think militant Islam is WRONG. Dead wrong. On just about every level. They are morally wrong, obviously, but even ignoring that, they are doing the wrong thing to achieve their political goals. If you keep bopping a tiger on the nose with a microphone, someday he's going to get tired of it and drag you off the stage by the neck. SMALL time terrorism might have worked, civilized nations are cowardly and don't like conflict. They will tend to just back out when it gets ugly. But BIG terrorism, like 9-11, anything that makes the people feel that they are not safe at home, can ONLY result in them eventually exterminating you. We HAVE the ability to make them extinct. The only thing stopping us is morality and civilization. Keep scratching at that veneer and there won't be any morality or civilization left. Only a frightened superpower with nukes.

BUT:

Don't give me this "we are simply superior" crap
Islam was the multicultural meltingpot center of intercultural trade, Science, Medicine, Mathematics, and cultural liberalism. While Christianity was busy burning heretics and running from it's own shadows in the dark ages.

Which is what I was trying to get at. YES we must stop them, but we shouldn't be feeling that we are "superior", or especially that the reason we are superior is because we are "Christians" and they are "Muslims". Christians have done the same and worse at other times in history.

YES I believe that Christianity is right and Islam is wrong, but we are not immune to the exact same kind of fanaticism that is running rampant in the Islamic world. And, here I'm going to get into trouble. I think we are heading back that way. People are willing to give up more and more personal freedoms and liberties, and to give our government more and more power, because they are frightened of the terrorist. I've personally talked to Americans, people whom I had previously thought quite rational and normal, who recommended massive nuclear bombardment of all arab nations. I've heard conservative talk show hosts who thought all those muslims dying in that stampede a while back was actually pretty funny. Conservative Christians in the US are openly advocating that this be declared a "Christian" nation and that all people who don't fit in just go home (because, obviously, this is NOT their home). They say that our government needs to come back to God and that we need more government support of Christianity. I caught Michael Savage saying on his show that "America will never be safe until we get rid of this insane Religious Liberty idea". True, he's not exactly main stream, but the idea is starting on the fringes and working it's way into the center.

The current state of Islam is not something Christianity has evolved outof - it's something that will more likely emerge from it's ashes after it has been decimated.

And actually, this makes a lot of sense to me, although I don't think it requires that Christianity be decimated, just that we get very frightened. When we look at Militant Islam, remember, we MUST fight them, but we must do it in a way that doesn't let us BECOME them.

I know there is nothing comparable in the Bible to this deliberate insistence on hatred and retaliation. Which may be why the West is so different from the Middle East.

I LOVE the Bible, and I'm not trying to drive people away from it, but I DO feel that this position is not complete. Christians who wanted to be violent have found PLENTY of texts to take out of context that would support their evil deeds. The texts DO have to be taken out of context and misinterpreted, but there are LOTS of them there that are EASILY vulnerable to that. And that HAVE BEEN MISUSED for exactly that. The Conquistadors used the Bible to support conversion at gun point. The Inquisition used the Bible to support torturing people to death. And I've spoken to too many contemporary people who read the Bible without fully understanding it and found nothing but violence and hatred there, so I'm a bit hesitant to accuse the Koran of the same.

[Will Robinson]

...Islam teaches their children they should never stop fighting against the infidels...

Just WHO is telling you these rediculously incorrect blanket statements?

If i travel north into Indonesia (population is 88% Muslim) i know that i will be treated well. How is this possible if everyone is taught to fight against me? It's not possible. Because your blanket statement is wrong!

Ok, I'll give any place outside the middle east the benefit of the doubt but I know I'm dead right about the middle eastern followers and it is quite evident from my posts that I was focusing on them.
Considering al Queda has a strong following in Indonesia I think my sweeping commments may be on track there as well.

[Shoku]

. . . so I'm a bit hesitant to accuse the Koran of the same.

Just read the quotes - they are not out of context - they are straight forward and specific. Read the history of Islam. Read the Quran. Read the other Islamic "holy" books, and you will find that Islam turned from a once peaceful ideology, into a spiteful, bloddthirsty religion while Muhammed was still alive. It was steered down the road of bloodshed by its founder, for a number of reasons. This hypocritical turn of events was what the "Satanic Verses" was all about. Truth hurts sometimes, and unfortunately good Muslims prefer to kill the messenger to remove that hurt, instead of recognizing the flaws in their beliefs, and abandoning a religion based on falsehood.

The Christian message has been twisted by many, and the violence because of that is without God's favor. You do not have to twist what the Quran says to justify the violence being done today by Muslims - the Quran orders them to do it - it's what good Muslims are suppose to do.

[Duper]

Islam slaughtered everything in it's path that would not convert.

So did Christianity during much of it's reign.

As I did state in the rest of that post. Or rather illuded to. I didn't feel the need to expound on that as everyone seems to be very well educated on the Churche's atrosities and won't miss an opportunity to point it out.

Good post Weyrman.

[roid]

You do not have to twist what the Quran says to justify the violence being done today by Muslims - the Quran orders them to do it - it's what good Muslims are suppose to do.

the good Muslims i know disagree with you.

I don't know about you Shoku. But Will Robinson (edit: woops), are you telling me that non-Muslims should be afraid to walk the streets in Arabic Muslim nations? It sounds like that's what you are saying. Because if they are all taught that we have to be killed - then obviously they would want to kill us... so we should be afraid! eeek!

Yet you'd be perfectly safe walking around the streets of Egypt. There's nothing to fear man. This "they are all taught to kill us!" stuff is obviously wrong, travel through these nations and you will note that the local townsfolk do NOT run out of houses with AK-47s screaming "Kill the Infadels!" at you.
(So i ask you again... just WHERE ARE you getting your news from man?)

But don't let reality get in the way of your fear eh?
Maybe the USA Terror Alert Level been raised to "Zenophobicly Petrified", i dunno.


Shoku, since reality does not quite line up with your interpretation of the Quaran (i can travel freely in most Muslim countrys), do you think perhaps you yourself have misinterpreted it?

[Tricord]

...Islam teaches their children they should never stop fighting against the infidels...

Just WHO is telling you these rediculously incorrect blanket statements?

If i travel north into Indonesia (population is 88% Muslim) i know that i will be treated well. How is this possible if everyone is taught to fight against me? It's not possible. Because your blanket statement is wrong!

I think the fact that there *is* opportunity for such indoctrination within the Islam, is already too much. Of course they aren't all like that, but some of them are. Leaving people to their own good judgement and interpretation is always a bad idea.

[Shoku]

Shoku, since reality does not quite line up with your interpretation of the Quran (i can travel freely in most Muslim countrys), do you think perhaps you yourself have misinterpreted it?

I never said all Muslims want to kill us. I said that the Quran tells them to kill us. The above quotes are not an interpretation. They are taken directly from the translation of the Al-Quran by Muhammad Farooq-i-Azam Malik, the Director of The Institute of Islamic Knowledge. If I say to you, "seize them and kill them wherever you find them," how should you take my meaning? In any language I think the meaning is quite clear, and not open to "interpretation."

In every religion there exists believers who demonstrate different degrees of belief, different degrees of adherence to the religious doctrine. Most people want to live peaceful lives, most people are not fanatics. The problem with Islam, however, is if you want to be a fanatic, the Quran tells you it's OK, and that to be a good Muslim you should "seize and kill" all unbelievers and Allah will reward you.
And you do not need to twist what the book says to come to that conclusion - just read the quotes!

[Lothar]

just read the quotes!

You talk a lot about context when reading the Bible. I thought you'd at least be consistant on this point.

When reading any text, everything you read has to be interpreted as it fits within layer upon layer of context. In particular, with a religious-historical text, each sentence has to be read as it fits in to the immediate story, and the immediate story has to be read as it fits in to the overall themes of the book. Even if the immediate meaning of the text is clear, you *must* interpret how it fits into the context. You *must* figure out what the scope of the statement is.

Are the above quotes within a specific story about a specific set of infidels, like the Old Testament quotes about driving people out of the promised land? Or are they about killing all infidels everywhere?

In order to understand the quotes, we have to have a firm understanding of what the overall story of the Quran is, what individual stories those quotes came up in, and how they fit together. Now, I happen to think the quotes probably *do* mean to kill all infidels everywhere because I know the Quran is the story of Muhammed's life and the guy was a serious militant, but I haven't read the book so I can't be sure.

On the other hand...

since reality does not quite line up with your interpretation of the Quaran (i can travel freely in most Muslim countrys), do you think perhaps you yourself have misinterpreted it?

Reality also doesn't line up with my interpretation of the Bible. If you travel around in areas filled with people who call themselves "Christian" (or "Jew") you don't find them treating you as the Bible says they should. The problem isn't my interpretation, it's the fact that many people who take the religious label upon themselves don't really follow what the religious book says, but instead they do what they want and selectively quote their religious book to support it.

I think people who call themselves Muslim but *don't* fight against us "infidels" probably aren't true Muslims. (But I may be wrong here; as I said above, I don't really *know* what the Quran actually commands.)

[roid]

yeah, i'm assuming the opposite.
Both of us are basing our assumptions (i assume) on what we hear from other people. I'm trusting the statements i'm getting from various Muslim communitys that "militants do not represent true modern Islam".


PS, to those who have somewhat illinformed views:

Just WHO is telling you these rediculously incorrect blanket statements?

*eerie silence*

(So i ask you again... just WHERE ARE you getting your news from man?)

*sound of crickets chirping*

[Shoku]

You talk a lot about context when reading the Bible. I thought you'd at least be consistant on this point.

I am being consistant. Get a Quran. Read it.

yeah, i'm assuming the opposite.

I like to give people the benefit of doubt as well, and like I said, most Muslims today probably want to live peaceful lives like most other people. But the fact remains that Islam has always encouraged militantcy - how do you think the religion spread? As the Islamic horde invaded country after country they gave the conquered people three choices:

1. Serve Allah and accept his Rasool.
2. Pay a protection tax (which amounted to almost everything they earned).
3. Die.

[De Rigueur]

Both of us are basing our assumptions (i assume) on what we hear from other people.

@Roid: Why do assume Shoku is basing his "assumptions on what [he] hear from other people"? He has repeteadly referred to the Quran. Do you think the Quran is not relevant, or is less important than your anecdotal evidence, in determining the nature of "true modern Islam"?

[Lothar]

Get a Quran. Read it.

Are you saying your understanding of the Quran comes from reading it, then, and not from websites that list the quotes without context? And that you understand the Quran well enough to be reasonably sure of your interpretations?

If so, please give me the following:
1) a rough 1-2 paragraph overview of the story of the whole book.
2) a list of major themes found throughout the whole book
3) a statement of the context of, say, the first 3 quotes you gave above. What individual story do the quotes take place in? What evidence is there for and against them being taken as universal commands?

I'm fairly convinced that Islam does, and always has, encouraged militant behavior based on the studies of history I've done. But I don't actually know the way the Quran itself reads, and I'm hesitant to trust anyone who can't answer the above questions to interpret it properly (just like I'm hesitant to trust anyone who can't answer those questions with respect to the Bible to interpret it properly.) Can you answer those questions?

[El Ka Bong]

Holy Jeebus !

Homer Simson gets away with the cartoonish statements he makes.. ! Ironically or seriously !

...personally, regarding the set of cartoons, I liked the one about having run out of virgins... ! ... (and does the Quran actually specify \"virgins\" ... wtf ..?) ...

To quote a few of us here ... \"Evolve\" people ! and \"Get over yourselves\" ... I add: it's 2006 AD ! Grow up ! (..as a species)... Hatch out of your thousand year old larval consciousness ! Wipe the slime of history off your eyes ! Look at what else there is, all the time renewing every instant !And laugh !... even a sense of Humour is allowed in Heaven !

Let's take it from here, no more recanting history of anybody's dogmatic interpretation of any Frikkin' text. Were way beyond the Crusades and WWII; been there, done that.

Starting HERE and NOW: those who will constitute the future of our species will NOT be the confused, unenlightened, intollerant, close-minded, people who we see performing idiotically everywhere in the world.

Watch them all 'cull themselves' from the gene pool by having such twisted world views ! Watch them go be intollerant, inbreed in some way, ignore modern medicine and planetary issues, let them go suicide bomb themselves, watch them get 'stuck' under the baggage of their 'society'. And They will not be contributing to the future of mankind or the planet.

I bet with Iran, in a short time, out will come the nose-cam equipped cruise missles... hundreds of them !

I look for signs of a modern self-culling, self-regulating effect in population; is it famine, diease, literal interpretaions of the doctrine ..? or Cruise missles..?

Wasn't it Sartre who said \"Hell is other people\" .. ?

[roid]

Both of us are basing our assumptions (i assume) on what we hear from other people.

@Roid: Why do assume Shoku is basing his "assumptions on what [he] hear from other people"? He has repeteadly referred to the Quran. Do you think the Quran is not relevant, or is less important than your anecdotal evidence, in determining the nature of "true modern Islam"?

I trust what Muslims have to say about their own religion in this regard more than i trust a Christian. The Christian - if improperly motivated - will be likely just looking for any sound-bite to discredit Islam with no care for accuracy, context, or common Islamic interpretation (<- my main source).
Lothar touched on my view, i think Shoku and other people's understanding of the Quran is not only incomplete but also dripping with vested religious bias - i would also lean towards adding "inaccurate" if it wasn't already strongly inferred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Islam_by_country.png <-- just to show how many countrys we are actually talking about here, it's quite a few.

As you will read - most Muslims are a religiously tollerant people, but there is a contemporary fundamentalist movement which preaches intollerance.
An internal religious debate which doesn't sound too different from religious debates within Christianity, no? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism

[Lothar]

I trust what Muslims have to say about their own religion in this regard more than i trust a Christian.

How do you decide which Muslims to trust? How do you decide which are the "true" Muslims and which are the apostate Muslims?

IMO, the only way to tell is to go back to the original text -- go back to the Quran and see what it says. Read it and take it seriously -- try to understand what the major themes are, what it seems intended to communicate, what it says about God and people and whatever else. And if it turns out the Muslims you know are the "true" Muslims, then good for them. If it turns out Osama is true to what the book actually says and the people you know are practicing a watered down fake Islam, good for them as well. But if that's the case, understand that they are practicing something that's not really Islam.

i think Shoku and other people's understanding of the Quran is not only incomplete but also dripping with vested religious bias

I don't know if it is or not. That's why I asked him to share what he sees as the major themes of the book, and so forth.

Similarly with fundamentalist Christianity... the only way to tell whether my version of Christianity or Pat Robertson's version of Christianity is "true" Christianity is to read and understand what the Bible is all about.

There are two issues at play here:
1) Are most people who call themselves Muslim good, tolerant people? (Most of the ones I know are, but I've also encountered quite a few who aren't.)
2) Are they practicing real Islam, or is Osama practicing the real thing? (The only way to know this is to read the book and try to understand what it's all about.)

[roid]

edit: oops doublepost

[roid]

I trust what Muslims have to say about their own religion in this regard more than i trust a Christian.

How do you decide which Muslims to trust? How do you decide which are the "true" Muslims and which are the apostate Muslims?

i'll run the numbers. i don't really care for the definition of true Islam - let the Islamists figure that one out. All i want is the rediculous "Muslims are dangerous people" blanket statements to be seen as what they truly are - Biggoted lies from people who either:
a) themselves have a vested religious interest in making Islam look bad; and/or
b) are manipulated by those who do; and/or
c) to just generally promote a "omg close the boarders!" culture of fear.
The simplest way to tell this crap from reality is to test it, walk around in Muslim countrys and tell me how many times you are attacked - by what i'm hearing here you would be lucky to make it out alive, which is of course false.

IMO, the only way to tell is to go back to the original text -- go back to the Quran and see what it says. Read it and take it seriously -- try to understand what the major themes are, what it seems intended to communicate, what it says about God and people and whatever else. And if it turns out the Muslims you know are the "true" Muslims, then good for them. If it turns out Osama is true to what the book actually says and the people you know are practicing a watered down fake Islam, good for them as well. But if that's the case, understand that they are practicing something that's not really Islam.

i think Shoku and other people's understanding of the Quran is not only incomplete but also dripping with vested religious bias

I don't know if it is or not. That's why I asked him to share what he sees as the major themes of the book, and so forth.

hehe come on, i could tell you knew the answer before you asked . *nudge nudge*. But you're a more patient man than i, willing to wait for proof and all that.

Similarly with fundamentalist Christianity... the only way to tell whether my version of Christianity or Pat Robertson's version of Christianity is "true" Christianity is to read and understand what the Bible is all about.

There are two issues at play here:
1) Are most people who call themselves Muslim good, tolerant people? (Most of the ones I know are, but I've also encountered quite a few who aren't.)
2) Are they practicing real Islam, or is Osama practicing the real thing? (The only way to know this is to read the book and try to understand what it's all about.)

If the scriptures themselves are important to you, yeah. But at the end of it what is important to the issue here is not the scriptures, but how the Muslim people as a whole interpret it. At the end of the day if we end up going to war over this, it won't be because of a book - it will be because of interpretation.

The book is irrelevant to War, only people are relevant - A book cannot itself fight a war. People (Muslims) must interpret the book to decide how they will act. Since the vast majority of Muslims do not seem to want to kill me, i assume this view is easily justified in the Quran. But really it doesn't matter... all that really matters is that there's a whole lot of people out there who DON'T want to kill me.

and i'm able to soundly sleep and travel without a gun under my pillow

[*JBOMB*]

Religion has done wonders for this world...way to get along everybody!

People should put things into perspective...
Teach your children not about a god...but about this:




Its not THAT big...

[Suncho]

That's what our parents did. When we found out about \"God\" from our friends, we asked our parents about it. They took us to church a few times and exposed us to various religious beliefs to educate us about religion. In the end, they allowed us to make our own decisions.

So that's what we did. =)

I renounced God at the age of seven. It wasn't because I hated religion. It was because the concept of God did not make any sense to me as it led to several paradoxes in my line of thinking.

At the same time, I respect religion for all the things it has done to help improve people's lives. What I don't like is when religion gets to the point where it causes people to hurt or kill other people.

[Kilarin]

i'll run the numbers. i don't really care for the definition of true Islam - let the Islamists figure that one out.

Roid is more interested in whats inside peoples heads than whats inside "holy" books? Wow! We never would have guessed!

IMO, the only way to tell is to go back to the original text -- go back to the Quran and see what it says.

Absolutely. Shoku has always proven to be quite a scholar. I won't be a bit surprised if he comes back with detailed answers to your questions.

What I don't like is when religion gets to the point where it causes people to hurt or kill other people.

Religion was also a motivator for the people who stopped Hitler. Religion was certainly a motivator for John Brown who thought slavery was so abhorrent it needed to be stopped by violence. I DO want people who believe in their religion strongly enough to fight, and even die by it's principles. I just want them to do it RIGHT instead of WRONG.

An unplugged power saw is not very dangerous. You might trip over it, or whack someone on the head with it, but overall, despite some sharp pointy bits, it's just not much of a threat. It's also not very useful. Plug that power saw in, and suddenly you have a tool that can do all kinds of great things! But you've also increased the threat if the tool is misused (accidentally or on purpose). In order to be powerful enough to be useful, it MUST be powerful enough to be dangerous.

Religion is DANGEROUS. Apathetic people, like unplugged power tools, aren't very useful for anything. Plug those people in to something they really BELIEVE in, and those people become POWERFUL. Almost EVERYTHING that has been accomplished in this world has been done by people who believed strongly in something. But just like the saw, once plugged in, the potential for MISUSE skyrockets as well. If you want powerful plugged in people, you are going to sometime see that power misused. You can't have the one without the possibility of other.

[Suncho]

An unplugged power saw is not very dangerous. You might trip over it, or whack someone on the head with it, but overall, despite some sharp pointy bits, it's just not much of a threat. It's also not very useful. Plug that power saw in, and suddenly you have a tool that can do all kinds of great things! But you've also increased the threat if the tool is misused (accidentally or on purpose). In order to be powerful enough to be useful, it MUST be powerful enough to be dangerous.

I like your analogy. =) I agree with it. I think religion has motivated many people to do many great things.

Religion is DANGEROUS. Apathetic people, like unplugged power tools, aren't very useful for anything. Plug those people in to something they really BELIEVE in, and those people become POWERFUL.

I agree with you here, too. But I also wouldn't say that a non-religious person is necessarily apathetic. I do not consider myself apathetic. I do really believe in things. I believe in people. I believe in the ingenuity of the human mind. I believe in myself.

Almost EVERYTHING that has been accomplished in this world has been done by people who believed strongly in something.

Yes. It's important to believe in something. It's important to feel a sense of purpose.

But just like the saw, once plugged in, the potential for MISUSE skyrockets as well. If you want powerful plugged in people, you are going to sometime see that power misused. You can't have the one without the possibility of other.

I disagree. Not all tools are dangerous when plugged in. I would argue that the most powerful tool is the human mind, and it's at its most dangerous when not plugged in. =)

[Suncho]

Oops. I forgot a part.

Religion was also a motivator for the people who stopped Hitler. Religion was certainly a motivator for John Brown who thought slavery was so abhorrent it needed to be stopped by violence.

Many things have happened because of strong beliefs. But these beliefs can exist independently of religion.

I DO want people who believe in their religion strongly enough to fight, and even die by it's principles. I just want them to do it RIGHT instead of WRONG.

I don't. I think it's ok for people to fight for what they believe in. I think it's ok for people to fight for religious teachings they believe in. But I only think it's ok if they're fighting because the things they're fighting for have a real-world manifestation.

Each person has his or her own perception of the supernatural. People think they're right whenever they fight for something. When they fight for things that do not exist in our physical reality, that's when we run into problems. Nobody can ever win.

[Zuruck]

I wonder if the Christians in this world would be offended if there was a cartoon depicting Christ or God giving a blowjob to a priest. Just kinda making fun of the abuse scandal, don't you think there would be an outcry?

[Suncho]

There probably already *IS* a picture like that.

[Will Robinson]

I wonder if the Christians in this world would be offended if there was a cartoon depicting Christ or God giving a blowjob to a priest. Just kinda making fun of the abuse scandal, don't you think there would be an outcry?

There have been countless pictures like that done and not only do we not burn peoples property we demand that the government continue to use our tax dollars to fund the artists and museums that put them on display!!

Remember jesus on a cross displayed in a glass of the artists urine....the virgin mary sculpted out of feces....
The islmo-crybabies need to get the f#@k over themselves in a big way! They are in deep denial, not worthy of their membership card to the real world!!

[Kilarin]

Many things have happened because of strong beliefs. But these beliefs can exist independently of religion.

Yep, thats why I was careful to say "Belief" not religion. The Communist system was one that required strong belief, but it wasn't based on religion. There are, of course, many other examples. (Including more positive ones!)

[dissent]

...People should put things into perspective...
Its not THAT big...

As a matter of perspective, I challenge you to get dropped off in a dinghy about a couple hundred miles south of Diego Garcia. As the chopper leaves into the distance, look around you and tell me that the place is "not that big".

(ps - yes I get your point, and I also agree with you)

As for Suncho and Kilarin's discussion, I agree. Any tool, religious or secular can have a way found for it to be abused by some creative soul. That's why there is no hope for a utopia - existance will always be on a razor's edge where people will have to balance their choices.

[Sirius]

Christianity doesn't exactly seem to encourage intolerance - Rev 22:11: \"Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does good continue to do good; let him who is holy continue to be holy\"

Of course, there is always the context issue, but this was in the middle of the \"the time is near, do not seal up these words\" deal. Effectively discussing how to treat the prophecies contained in the book.

[Zuruck]

If you put the picture I described on the front page of the New York Times or the Washington Post today, you don't think there would be an uproar?

On a side note, not to hijack a thread, anyone see the video of that cop shooting that airman? That was terrible.

[Kilarin]

If you put the picture I described on the front page of the New York Times or the Washington Post today, you don't think there would be an uproar?

Uproar, yes, but violence would be unlikely. And in the unlikely event that some unstable or misguided individual DID respond with violence, the full force of our legal system would be brought down upon them.

As has been pointed out, this has been tested MULTIPLE times. There is a VERY big difference between people who protest and boycot, and people who burn and bomb.

No, I'm not swapping sides, I still don't think we can feel "superior" for not currently being in the stage where we do those kinds of things. We HAVE done the same in the recent past. But that doesn't change the fact that responding to offensive images with violence is completely unacceptable. Yes, they certainly must be stopped, but we should have the attitude of an acholic who is currently on the wagon trying to dry up a wino. We detest what they are doing, but we know we have been there in the past.

[lars]

I wonder if the Christians in this world would be offended ....would be an outcry?

(Sorry had to cut the qoute because the BB complained about some of the words)

Be aware that nothing anything like that was on the drawings in "Jyllands Posten".

There where no naked Muhammad or him having sex with anything or anybody.
Nor where there pictures of him with a pigs nose.

Those pictures are just rumors (or at least they never came from Denmark). Alas, those, none existent, pictures are the reason for most of the violent demonstrations we see these days.

To come closer to the original drawings, try to figure something more like Jesus with a Crusader outfit. (Picturing Jesus as a violent person is kind of offensive). Nothing worse that that.

Lars