Bush Administration aggressively attacks freedom of press

[Diedel]

After the two recent masterpieces of investigative journalism presented by the New York Times, representatives of the Republican party and high administration members are attacking the NYT with remarkable and unheard of aggressivity.

Americans, haven't you still noticed that this government is totally Anti-American, unpatriotic and doing great harm to your nation? These people are abusing the loyalty and patriotism of many Americans by disguising their immoral and unlawful actions as being patriotic to cover up their disgraceful deeds.

Listen people, these people are not patriots, they are liars and thieves, robbing your nation!

[Cuda68]

I guess is sucks to be American. You just stay in the country you are in and we will both be happy.

[Will Robinson]

After the two recent masterpieces of investigative journalism presented by the New York Times,...

Wow, critical thinking skills left you or are you actually a mindless democrat sycophant?

The recent N.Y. Times article on the banking transaction tracing being done by the Bush administration should have you concerned about ever relying on them for anything!

By their own admission spelled out in the article itself they describe the program as being legal beyond any doubt...and as having been effective in catching terrorists and intercepting their funds and discovering other terrorists....

They also say that they got the information by way of someone leaking classified information...

When pressed by an interviewer on why they would expose a legal effective program that was classified and that the government specifically asked them to not publicized they responded by saying that although it was legal it was possible that it could be abused and so they had a responsibility to expose it.

WTF?!?

So I guess the N.Y. Times has usurped the legal authority of american laws and their will supercedes the constitution and they will next be publicizing all sorts of classified information. Like the identity of undercover policemen who are infiltrating criminal orginazations...publicizing the locations of hidden legal wiretaps...and any other number of legal effective law enforcement tools since there certainly is a chance that they can be abused!

Although it seems they have refrained from doing something so completely stupid and harmful to the security of our citizens in all cases *except* where the operator of such legal and effective law enforcement tools is the Bush administration? Hmmm?

And now I have to read the rantings of some airheaded german scolding me on my support for using such legal and effective law enforcement tools because he thinks he knows what's best for americans!

Tell me Diedel, did you know that just after 9/11/2001 the same N.Y. Times was on it's high horse demanding the Bush administration track down the terrorists funding?
Basically they were scolding the Bush administration for not having this very program up and running right after 9/11 and now they find it politically advantageous to turn an about face and try to spin the same program they were crying for as something Bush shouldn't be doing!?!?!

Tell me Diedel, how does it feel to have Nancy Pelosi and Howard Deans arm all the way up your rectum as they manipulate your flapping gums from the inside of your empty head like some little loudmouthed puppet?

[Diedel]

Rob,

you just cannot keep himself from becoming insultive when facing opinions you don't like (be they right or wrong).

You could have said exactly the same in a lets say more neutral tone.

Having an opinion (even a wrong one) doesn't qualify for being an a$$hole, but your behaviour does.

#1 Article was about the spying on millions of Americans
#2 Article was about sniffing around in international financial data, which definitely was not legal in quite some countries outside the U.S.
You don't want to tell me the NYT is to blame for the Bush admin breaking laws, do you?

I don't give a flyin' fk if a stoopid retard like you doesn't mind being butt raped by your government. So much about having something up the rectum. You must have a pretty big ass, because everything going in there must first pass your head. Oops, pardon me, you must have a pretty small head. My bad.

OMG, isn't it possible to issue an opinion, and be it a controversial one, w/o being attacked by a lame coward sitting far away in the safety of his computer chair and having the intelligence of a mouse, only undercut by his character?

You are a dumb, aggressive, ill-behaved troll and not worth the air you breathe.

Cuda,

most definitely!

[Grendel]

And now I have to read the rantings of some airheaded german scolding me on my support for using such legal and effective law enforcement tools because he thinks he knows what's best for americans!

[..]

Tell me Diedel, how does it feel to have Nancy Pelosi and Howard Deans arm all the way up your rectum as they manipulate your flapping gums from the inside of your empty head like some little loudmouthed puppet?

Fine example of how wars are started. Arguing by insulting ppl -- pretty cheap & uncalled for IMO. Wonder why you take it that personal ? I would have thought the opinion of an "airheaded german" voiced on a BB about Descent wouldn't hit that hard.. Sounds almost like PMS to me

Edit: let the war begin..

[Diedel]

Edit: let the war begin..

Oh well ...

I think I am going on manual ignore now.

[Zuruck]

Who cares? Let the NY times say what they want. When Bush & Co want to be accountable for what they are doing then maybe the leaks will stop. Obviously some people in the CIA, NSA, FBI, do not like what they are doing to the ordinary American and they are telling the press about it. Fine by me.

Bush had no problem leaking info from to the NIE to try and discredit Wilson. Only after Libby spilled the beans did Bush say he had the right to declassify as he saw fit.

[Shadowfury333]

Americans, haven't you still noticed that this government is totally Anti-American, unpatriotic and doing great harm to your nation? These people are abusing the loyalty and patriotism of many Americans by disguising their immoral and unlawful actions as being patriotic to cover up their disgraceful deeds.

How do you think us Canadians have felt. Our Liberal government(in power from 1992 to 2005) had about 1 major illegal scandal every term, and several laws, registries, and branches of government that should be considered scandals, for wasting taxpayer money. Thankfully they've been voted out by a party that will actually keep its promises.

Also, when Pierre Trudeau(Liberal, 1968-1979, 1980-84) was in power, Canada became extremely socialist, statist, and bureaucratic, and we are still suffering because of it today.

[Will Robinson]

That's funny, I've been reading Diedels insults in almost every post he makes lately, I've seen the moderator warn him so now he was dished up a little bit of what he has been serving, big deal.

Notice he doesn't have a damn thing of substance to refute my position on any of this. Declaring that \"some countries\" have laws against what we do means nothing to me and more important is totally irrelevant to the substance of discussion we were having.
bin Laden has declared we are in violation of numerous laws according to his book...so what? Should we give up womens rights, banking, eating with our left hands and freedom of religion or freedom to live without it? I think not and I think we won't be too worried about any foriegn law that says we can't gather information about who is funding al Queda either!

The point still stands, the N.Y. Times itself found the program to be legal and effective yet they disclosed classified information simply to stir up the political opposition and by doing so hampered our legal and effective efforts to track al queda funding....
They say it's because there is a chance of abuse. Well that's quite an interesting standard don't you think?
Hardly an example of objective journalism however it's the epitome of polical hackdom.

[Ferno]

That's funny, I've been reading Diedels insults in almost every post he makes lately, I've seen the moderator warn him so now he was dished up a little bit of what he has been serving, big deal.

Just because he does it, doens't give you the right to.

I love the excuses that came out after this.. "national security".. "aiding the enemy".. "treason"... I would refute it, but it's just really not worth the effort.

[Xamindar]

Diedel, are you another mindless drone of the media?

[Will Robinson]

....I love the excuses that came out after this.. "national security".. "aiding the enemy".. "treason"... I would refute it, but it's just really not worth the effort.

how about just point to where it is so I'll know what the heck you're talking about

[Diedel]

Xamindar,

are you another case of the famous three monkeys who do not want to see, hear and say anything?

Yeah Will,

I know I have been going pretty far lately, but you really ticked me off with your insults, and even more with the open lies you are spreading. You don't like my language? Learn to watch yours! At least now you feel that it isn't pleasant at all to be talked to like that.

[Xamindar]

Xamindar,

are you another case of the famous three monkeys who do not want to see, hear and say anything?

Yeah, I like those monkeys. A lot more fun than wearing a tin-foil hat all day and never going out for fear of the world. The news simply twists things way out of proportion so that they can get the most viewers, who tend to be mindless drones.

[Will Robinson]

...Yeah Will,

I know I have been going pretty far lately, but you really ticked me off with your insults, and even more with the open lies you are spreading....

How about you at least back up the claim that I'm spreading lies. You can't hide behind being afraid to travel here to back up your words like you did when asked to back up your threats.

Just pick a "lie" and start typing the specifics and back it up with some sources.

[Ferno]

a basic google search would turn up what I said.

[Will Robinson]

a basic google search would turn up what I said.

Well you quoted me and then listed these funny things as if they applied to this thread. Apparntly you just wanted to muddy the waters instead of engage in the conversation.
Why not tell us what you meant and how it applies to my words you quoted?

[Ferno]

I was referring to the shots that were taken after the NYT published the story.

[Dakatsu]

Hmmmm...

leaking info about someone's wife whom may never return to her job because of the fact they had information against the war that all of the major reasons to go to war were later found non-existant is okay...

but publishing an article about bank transactions and even praising the program that still will work and will just make terrorists avoid making bank transactions isn't?

I can see the logic in that one for sure, I should join the Republican party to fight that bastard called freedom of speech. I mean, WTF did freedom of speech do for me?

[Lothar]

Rob,

you just cannot keep himself from becoming insultive when facing opinions you don't like (be they right or wrong).

You could have said exactly the same in a lets say more neutral tone.

Absolutely rich.

But, yes, Will, you could have said it in a more neutral tone. Please do so in the future.

[Diedel]

leaking info about someone's wife whom may never return to her job because of the fact they had information against the war that all of the major reasons to go to war were later found non-existant is okay...

[Will Robinson]

I was referring to the shots that were taken after the NYT published the story.

Shots that I took? I don't recall saying those things, why attribute it to me?

[Will Robinson]

Hmmmm...

leaking info about someone's wife whom may never return to her job because of the fact they had information against the war that all of the major reasons to go to war were later found non-existant is okay...

Nevermind that she had been removed from covert op's years earlier because her name was already exposed to the enemy when an FBI agent sold that info to the russians and because she was having a baby and wanted to be home with her family so she was publically working a desk job, something no covert agent would ever do....
And your assertion that all the reasons for going to the war were non-existant is complete crap!
I wonder if you can actually list the real reasons given as opposed to the leftwing talking points?

but publishing an article about bank transactions and even praising the program that still will work and will just make terrorists avoid making bank transactions isn't?

If they now avoid using those banking methods because the program is exposed don't you think the effectiveness of the program has been..oh, shall we say completely destroyed ?!?!?
Where the program was bringing us arrests and discovery of more terrorists and leads it now will bring in nothing except the knowledge that they are now avoiding the bank!! There's some really fine logic for you

[Mobius]

aggressivity.

I think you were searching for "agressiveness" or "agression". No need to invent non-euphonious words when we already have ones which sound good, and have some history.

[Ferno]

I was referring to the shots that were taken after the NYT published the story.

Shots that I took? I don't recall saying those things, why attribute it to me?

no, you didn't take any shots at NYT.. you must be confused.

I am talking about the shots that the administration and it's supporters took at the NYT..

Google NYT +treason

[FunkyStickman]

As far as I see it, selective objectivity is NO objectivity at all. The NYT has *very* selective objectivity, therefore I don't trust most of what they \"report\" on.

They need a healthy dose of their own medicine.

[Sir Sam II]

Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis

[TIGERassault]

If they now avoid using those banking methods because the program is exposed don't you think the effectiveness of the program has been..oh, shall we say completely destroyed ?!?!?

Well, yes!
You make it sound like a bad thing.

As far as I see it, selective objectivity is NO objectivity at all. The NYT has *very* selective objectivity, therefore I don't trust most of what they "report" on.
They need a healthy dose of their own medicine.

It's a bad idea to judge an article by the newspaper.

[Will Robinson]

If they now avoid using those banking methods because the program is exposed don't you think the effectiveness of the program has been..oh, shall we say completely destroyed ?!?!?

Well, yes!
You make it sound like a bad thing.

Because it is a bad thing to destroy that program.

Well, unless you happen to be one of the terrorists who could have been discovered by the program.
Or if you are a democrat who has no platform to run his campaign on except one of "Bush sucks so vote for us"!
In the case of the latter you might be willing to throw away an effective and legal law enforcement program that tracks and discovers the activities of terrorists as long as you can gain some political ground by doing so!

But other than that, yea, it is a bad thing!

[Grendel]

Well, unless you happen to be one of the terrorists who could have been discovered by the program.
Or if you are a democrat who has no platform to run his campaign on except one of "Bush sucks so vote for us"!
In the case of the latter you might be willing to throw away an effective and legal law enforcement program that tracks and discovers the activities of terrorists as long as you can gain some political ground by doing so!

But other than that, yea, it is a bad thing!

Nope. I'd rather know what's going on w/ my information. This kind of secrecy leads to power abuse if unchecked (in this case industrial espionage). And the outcome is the same (!) -- your "terrorists" can't transfer money w/o being exposed.

[Zuruck]

They didn't stop 9/11 when they had field officers bluntly saying that something smelled bad about the muslims learning how to fly commercial jets. What good are these programs when all they're doing is spying on American citizens?

The Republicans (and those that vote for them) would rape Jesus while reading your financial records.

[Will Robinson]

Nope. I'd rather know what's going on w/ my information. This kind of secrecy leads to power abuse if unchecked (in this case industrial espionage). And the outcome is the same (!) -- your "terrorists" can't transfer money w/o being exposed.

Tell me what's the difference between this programs tracking finances of al Queda suspects and the way the FBI traced the finances of Ken Lay and his Ennron cronies...or Al Capone...or every other Mafioso or Drug Cartel member we ever busted?

Oh wait, I know!!! In this case G.W. Bush might look like he was doing a good thing because obviously you never raised one bit of concern that those other programs could lead to "power abuse" did you?!

[Will Robinson]

They didn't stop 9/11 when they had field officers bluntly saying that something smelled bad about the muslims learning how to fly commercial jets. What good are these programs when all they're doing is spying on American citizens?...

Do you know why the intel wasn't shared between the different government agencies? Do you know anything about Able Danger?

Mr. Speaker, I rise because information has come to my attention over the past several months that is very disturbing. I have learned that, in fact, one of our Federal agencies had, in fact, identified the major New York cell of Mohamed Atta prior to 9/11; and I have learned, Mr. Speaker, that in September of 2000, that Federal agency actually was prepared to bring the FBI in and prepared to work with the FBI to take down the cell that Mohamed Atta was involved in New York City, along with two of the other terrorists. I have also learned, Mr. Speaker, that when that recommendation was discussed within that Federal agency, the lawyers in the administration at that time said, you cannot pursue contact with the FBI against that cell. Mohamed Atta is in the U.S. on a green card, and we are fearful of the fallout from the Waco incident. So we did not allow that Federal agency to proceed.

"Do you remember Bush saying that 9/11 was a wake up call and we need to loose the pre-9/11 mentality that allowed that intel to go unused? Do you remember the New York Times, right after 9/11, scolding Bush for not tracking the finances of al Queda??!!??
No, of course not, you only jumped in after they changed their tune and started complaining that he did what they had scolded him for not doing...

[Dedman]

Tell me what's the difference between this programs tracking finances of al Queda suspects and the way the FBI traced the finances of Ken Lay and his Ennron cronies...or Al Capone...or every other Mafioso or Drug Cartel member we ever busted?

A court order?

[Grendel]

Tell me what's the difference between this programs tracking finances of al Queda suspects and the way the FBI traced the finances of Ken Lay and his Ennron cronies...or Al Capone...or every other Mafioso or Drug Cartel member we ever busted?

A court order?

Yep.

Oh wait, I know!!! In this case G.W. Bush might look like he was doing a good thing because obviously you never raised one bit of concern that those other programs could lead to "power abuse" did you?!

I did and still do. I don't let a government decide what's best for me unquestioned as long I can think and act on my own will. I just don't do it a lot in the internet. All I do in places like this is voicing my opinion. Trying to actively convince anyone in this environment is pretty much futile -- most ppl are always right and have to have the last word. Quite some are flat out rude if you try to argue -- where's the fun in that ? Face to face conversations result in much more enjoyable discussions, TYVM.

[Will Robinson]

Tell me what's the difference between this programs tracking finances of al Queda suspects and the way the FBI traced the finances of Ken Lay and his Ennron cronies...or Al Capone...or every other Mafioso or Drug Cartel member we ever busted?

A court order?

I believe I read that the details learned in the money tracking program are legally attained and don't require a court order. This isn't the same as the NSA wiretapping thing.

[Kilarin]

I believe I read that the details learned in the money tracking program are legally attained and don't require a court order. This isn't the same as the NSA wiretapping thing.

I hate to find myself defending G. W. But as far as I can tell, there was no question of illegality with the money tracking program.

[Will Robinson]

I believe I read that the details learned in the money tracking program are legally attained and don't require a court order. This isn't the same as the NSA wiretapping thing.

I hate to find myself defending G. W. But as far as I can tell, there was no question of illegality with the money tracking program.

Then don't defend G.W., defend common sense!
If the program was legal, effective and the details were classified then it shouldn't have been leaked or publicized!
Certainly the excuse that "it could be abused" isn't a high enough standard for disrupting a legal and effective law enforcement program! There are countless legal effective law enforcement programs/techniques/weapons/etc. that "can be abused" yet the N.Y. times doesn't tip off the criminals as to how those methods are being used....

[snoopy]

#2 Article was about sniffing around in international financial data, which definitely was not legal in quite some countries outside the U.S.
You don't want to tell me the NYT is to blame for the Bush admin breaking laws, do you?

I don't know about that statement. Is there some international body that the U.S. is a member of that says it's illegal (or at least unethical) to do such snooping? It isn't fair to say that something the U.S. did is illegal because some country somewhere has a law against it. I mean, if I buy an island and make my own nation, and then make a law saying it's illegal to post on BB's, would that make us all law breakers? I guess what I'm saying is, so long as the U.S. persons didn't do such snooping within the jurisdiction of the entities that say it's illegal, they never broke any laws. The question of if it *should* be illegal withing U.S. laws is a different one entirely.

[Zuruck]

snoopy, it's a law that the US made and our own govt is breaking it. I hope the NY Times continues to do actual journalism, and not spewing out crap like Fox News. It's all fine by me, this administration will be known for a long time as a complete failure and horrendous judgement by the American people to elect him, twice. If you think you're safety and well being are at the forefront on this White House's thinking, then you're just a complete idiot, otherwise known as a Republican.