What M$ is *really* up to with Vista - a must read!

TIGERassault · Post by **TIGERassault** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:38 am

Diedel wrote:If they make CD DX10, it will be a no go for me. To hell with DirectX. People should go OpenGL. v3.0 is around the corner.

I rather doubt that it's going to be in Dx10. Games exclusive for that won't be around for about a year or two.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:59 am

If they make CD DX10, it will be a no go for me. To hell with DirectX. People should go OpenGL. v3.0 is around the corner.

No, fortunately, they said it would primarily be OpenGL.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:44 pm

Vista won't support OpenGL. MS killed it in thier next OS.

DigiJo · Post by **DigiJo** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:51 pm

you must be kidding duper, no opengl in windows vista?

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:23 pm

There will be no direct support anymore. I have read that the gfx driver providers can somehow get it into Vista, but that's all. MS tries to kill off OpenGL.

Vista stinks, and since Vista I believe M$ does, too.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:32 pm

DigiJo wrote:you must be kidding duper, no opengl in windows vista?

tru fax

FunkyStickman · Post by **FunkyStickman** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:36 pm

*yawn* Windows what...?

Never mind. I'll go back to lurking now.

[subliminal]uselinux[/subliminal]

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:26 pm

Diedel wrote:There will be no direct support anymore. I have read that the gfx driver providers can somehow get it into Vista, but that's all. MS tries to kill off OpenGL.

Vista stinks, and since Vista I believe M$ does, too.

from what I heard, MS isn't providing their own opengl drivers, but nothing is preventing Nvidia and AMD from providing their own.

Like the previous versions of windows.

pATCheS · Post by **pATCheS** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:48 pm

Are you kidding? MS is too providing its own OpenGL driver. It sucks just as much as all the ones before it. At least it has some notion of hardware acceleration this time.

OpenGL support in Vista is up to hardware vendors, and supposedly desktop compositing must be disabled for it to work. I wonder if nVidia/ATI are working on ways to get OGL to work with desktop composition. From what I've read, MS isn't allowing it for stability reasons. I figure, OGL and D3D are just two different ways of interfacing with the same hardware... cooperation between them could theoretically be implemented at the driver level with decent speed. But, you wouldn't want to run OGL apps composited for the same reason you don't want to run D3D apps composited: performance goes to hell. That's why MS's decision has no net effect on games that run using OpenGL. I don't know why there's all the fuss about it. The ONLY thing about OGL in Vista is that MS's default implementation for it sucks.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:31 pm

Afaik MS will not provide any kind of OpenGL support for Vista. It's entirely up to 3rd parties.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:42 pm

Microsoft never provided any opengl Drivers - they have no video hardware to write them for.

They might provide some basic implementation of the opengl libraries for vista, but no actual hardware drivers.

Hell, nvidia doesn't have final drivers for vista yet.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:50 pm

pATCheS wrote:OpenGL support in Vista is up to hardware vendors, and supposedly desktop compositing must be disabled for it to work.

Interesting--so when you try to run a windowed OpenGL game with Vista bling enabled, does it temporarily disable desktop composition, or does it give something along the lines of an error message?

I'm not sure if Vista does this, but compiz's way of handling any performance issue of desktop composition + 3d games is to disable desktop composition for fullscreen 3d stuff, since there's no need to have it for a fullscreen 3d game.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:28 pm

Jeff250 wrote:I'm not sure if Vista does this, but compiz's way of handling any performance issue of desktop composition + 3d games is to disable desktop composition for fullscreen 3d stuff, since there's no need to have it for a fullscreen 3d game.

You have never used multiple monitors before have you?

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:38 pm

Open GL,,, fine. what about D3d sound drivers? how many games and software use existing windows d3d drivers?

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:43 pm

Duper wrote:Open GL,,, fine. what about D3d sound drivers? how many games and software use existing windows d3d drivers?

the majority.

The only windows games that only use OpenGL are games using iD engines.

nearly all use DirectSound, a handful use OpenAL.

EAX doesn't work in vista via Directsound, or so Creative says.

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:42 pm

There is no DirectSound in Vista. CL is working on a DS wrapper for OpenAL.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:37 pm

Krom wrote:You have never used multiple monitors before have you?

Why would multiple monitors make a difference? You can composite on one monitor and not on another. Desktop applications on one monitor, even if composited on that monitor, shouldn't composite with a fullscreen game on another monitor.

Viper7 · Post by **Viper7** » Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:33 pm

check it out

http://coredecision.highoctane.biz

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:50 am

Here is what the Windows Vista Team Blog has to say about the paper I have linked to in this thread's initial post:

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windo ... swers.aspx

Although it is a long read, the really interesting part is the user comments. Kyo, I recommend you read them, that may make you reconsider your wiseguy remarks about obscure and biased uni profs from the beginning of this thread.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:07 am

Update:

Gutman's response to the M$ \"blog\"

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/p ... l#response