For the \"Truthers!\"

[Nightshade]

On the History Channel:

9/11 Conspiracies
Episode: Fact or Fiction

Monday, August 20 09:00 PM

Tuesday, August 21 01:00 AM

Saturday, August 25 08:00 PM

Sunday, August 26 12:00 AM

Examines the various conspiracy theories espoused on the Internet, in articles and in public forums that attempt to explain the 9/11 attacks. It includes theories that the World Trade Center was brought down by a controlled demolition; that a missile, not a commercial airliner, hit the Pentagon; and that members of the U.S. government orchestrated the attacks in hopes of creating a war in the Middle East. Each conspiracy argument is countered by a variety of experts in the fields of engineering, intelligence and the military. The program also delves into the anatomy of such conspiracies and how they grow on the Internet.

Rating: TVPG

Running Time: 120 minutes

[Ferno]

Each conspiracy argument is countered by a variety of experts in the fields of engineering, intelligence and the military.

Smear tactic.

You can't POSSIBLY tell me WTC7 was brought down by a few small diesel fires. It's physically impossible.

[Duper]

Each conspiracy argument is countered by a variety of experts in the fields of engineering, intelligence and the military.

baaahhhahahaha .. the government couldn't engineer they're way out of a wet paper bag. ..no.. there's no way they could pull something like this off.

[Ferno]

duper: they sure can when it's something they want. And with blinding speed too.

TB: care to tell us which experts will weigh in? or are these 'anonymous sources'?

[Duper]

duper: they sure can when it's something they want. And with blinding speed too.

perhaps...but 9 to 1 it's an accident if it works. ;D

[Nightshade]

Watch the program and find out.

Anyway, a conspiracy so huge would inevitably have sources and leaks that would be celebrated and rewarded by the media at large like watergate did. It would be too twisted a conspiracy to be left unchallenged and unspoken from within.

[Ferno]

The whole point in asking you the question is to see if you can supply an answer.

Instead you try and feed me this BS about how I 'should watch the program'.

It would be too twisted a conspiracy to be left unchallenged and unspoken from within.

Not when you're paid to keep your mouth shut and toe the line.

[Dakatsu]

The 9/11 conspiracy lacks truthiness!

/me ends the story!

[Kyouryuu]

The people who claim 9/11 was a conspiracy are nuts. You can't argue on one hand that the Administration is completely inept and incompetent, and then turn around and argue that they perpetrated the most vicious and egregious attack imaginable on its own constituency and managed to keep it a secret for five years.

They couldn't even cover up Gonzogate. Please, don't give these people more credit than they are due.

[Foil]

The people who claim 9/11 was a conspiracy are nuts. You can't argue on one hand that the Administration is completely inept and incompetent, and then turn around and argue that they perpetrated the most vicious and egregious attack imaginable on its own constituency and managed to keep it a secret for five years.

They couldn't even cover up Gonzogate. Please, don't give these people more credit than they are due.

x2, well said.

If it hasn't been said enough, watch the program. It presents both sides quite thoroughly.

Personally, even if I didn't know the facts, I would be cautious of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, simply because they fit the "conspiracy theory m.o." criteria I mentioned in this thread:

Of course conspiracy is theoretically possible. However, when the bulk of evidence runs contrary to that, and those who are claiming conspiracy are generally coming up with wild, implausible theories... yeah, I'm gonna be dubious.

The most vivid example of this to me was the Oklahoma City Murrah Building bombing in '95 (I lived there at the time)... I don't know how many of you were aware, but a state representative named Charles Key called for a grand jury investigation about a "cover up" regarding the facts of the bombing. At first, it was big news around Oklahoma City; the idea that maybe there were more bombers, or the government was even directly involved... pretty scary stuff, right?

Yeah, but then people started looking at the details of his argument. Key had basically compiled this wild, ridiculous theory about a "government sting operation cover-up" where even the local fire crews knew it was going to happen beforehand ("that's why they got there so quickly!"). ...Of course, none of his conspiracy theories proved out whatsoever.

Since then, every single conspiracy theory I've heard has had the same "M.O.":

- sensationalism (see: 9/11 conspiracy theories)

- false and misunderstood scientific statements (see: free energy conspiracy theories, moon landing hoax theories)

- supporters who are convinced that they are "one of the chosen few who really know" (see: new world order theories)

- nowadays: low-budget videos, using dramatic official/scientific-sounding dialogue, rushing illogically through multiple questionably-true points to a poorly-formed (and of course shocking) conclusion

[Testiculese]

I'd like to know how the government came up with some thousands of pages of Patriot Act just a few days after the towers came down.

I know the government didn't actually do it, but they sure wanted it. I bet Bush was dancing for joy.

[Kilarin]

Yep, I'm with Foil and Kyouryuu on this. The SIZE of this conspiracy is just too big. How many people did George Bush have to recruit who were willing to murder innocent citizens (including children) in the first place, and didn't feel guilty and confess afterwards.

It would have taken unbelievable numbers of psychopaths to pull this off. I believe that there are psychopaths who would do this kind of thing, but not that many.

Especially when you consider how EASY it would have been to do it with just a FEW psychopaths. If George Bush were so evil as to want to attack his own country, all he would have to do is get one to three guys to sneak out some nerve gas and then release it in the middle of new york. The death total is higher, it's EASIER to pin on Sadam. And it doesn't require thousand of government workers who murder their fellow citizens and then keep quiet about it.

Occams Razor. It's just much easier to believe in a small team of middle-eastern suicide terrorist flying planes into buildings then in a conspiracy of thousands of government agents blowing up their own people.

I don't like George Bush, but he does enough REAL evil without having to make up stuff.

[Foil]

I know the government didn't actually do it, but they sure wanted it. I bet Bush was dancing for joy.

Taking advantage of the situation as rationale for an invasion in the Middle East, probably. Wanting it to happen, I doubt it.

[Testiculese]

Sure they did, look at the first thing Cheney did, award his company an $80 billion reconstruction project. Oh they wanted it alright. Nobody expected the towers to just crumble, though, I'm sure. Even still, 3000 lives is nothing compared to the opportunities this brought.

[TechPro]

This thread truly serves no beneficial purpose.

[Foil]

This thread truly serves no beneficial purpose.

It did at the beginning, promoting awareness (specifically for those who believe all the 9/11 conspiracy theories out there) of a very good program which presents the conspiracy ideas side-by-side with the refutations by experts.

... However, I agree, the thread has gone downhill.

[Bet51987]

This thread truly serves no beneficial purpose.

Yes it does. It blends in with the fake moon landing.

Bettina

[Duper]

This thread truly serves no beneficial purpose.

Yes it does. It blends in with the fake moon landing.

Bettina

I KNEW that was going to get mentioned.

[Ferno]

If anyone watched this, see if they mention a YTMND site in the documentary.

[BUBBALOU]

YHBT

I love it

[Nirvana]

You can't POSSIBLY tell me WTC7 was brought down by a few small diesel fires. It's physically impossible.

Sorry, Ferno, but if you believe it was a conspiracy, I'm going to say you've smoke a bit too much weed in your past

BTW, a freeway ramp about 50 minutes (in San Fran) away from me collapsed when a fuel truck crashed on it a few months ago... in the same way that the WTC collapsed. Interestingly, I was either on it or drove right next to it about 4 hours before the accident occurred.

[woodchip]

You can't POSSIBLY tell me WTC7 was brought down by a few small diesel fires. It's physically impossible.

Sorry, Ferno, but if you believe it was a conspiracy, I'm going to say you've smoke a bit too much weed in your past

BTW, a freeway ramp about 50 minutes (in San Fran) away from me collapsed when a fuel truck crashed on it a few months ago... in the same way that the WTC collapsed. Interestingly, I was either on it or drove right next to it about 4 hours before the accident occurred.

Also Fern, they were not a "few" small fires. Thousands of gals of aviation fuel were involved. while people question how such flames could melt steel, the answer is the steel did not melt. It twisted and warped to the point connectivity between structural support beams was lost, then a floor pancaked with all the weight from above focusing on the floor below. Each floor can only support itself, The building is supported by vertical beams, each of which is stacked on top of each other so the weight is transferred down to the bottom foundation. OBL, being a engineer, knew this and planned the attack accordingly.
I am quite surprised anyone would actually believe that 9/11 was planned by our govt. If you do, seek some professional help.

[roid]

You can't POSSIBLY tell me WTC7 was brought down by a few small diesel fires. It's physically impossible.

Sorry, Ferno, but if you believe it was a conspiracy, I'm going to say you've smoke a bit too much weed in your past

BTW, a freeway ramp about 50 minutes (in San Fran) away from me collapsed when a fuel truck crashed on it a few months ago... in the same way that the WTC collapsed. Interestingly, I was either on it or drove right next to it about 4 hours before the accident occurred.

Also Fern, they were not a "few" small fires. Thousands of gals of aviation fuel were involved. while people question how such flames could melt steel, the answer is the steel did not melt. It twisted and warped to the point connectivity between structural support beams was lost, then a floor pancaked with all the weight from above focusing on the floor below. Each floor can only support itself, The building is supported by vertical beams, each of which is stacked on top of each other so the weight is transferred down to the bottom foundation. OBL, being a engineer, knew this and planned the attack accordingly.

o rly?

iirc he was quoted as saying something like "holy ★■◆●! i didn't expect that but that was fuckin awseome!11!"

[Ferno]

I wasn't talking about 1 or 2. I was talking about the seventh building. ya know.. the 47 story building?

and OBL's now an engineer? heh last I checked he was a fighter. c'mon. that's a load of crap.

[MD-2389]

Umm, maybe not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_Bin_ ... ticization

Bin Laden may have studied economics and business administration[9] at the Management and Economics School of King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah. Some reports suggest bin Laden earned a degree in civil engineering in 1979,[10]

10.# ^ Encyclopedia of World Biography Supplement, Vol. 22. Gale Group, 2002, http://galenet.galegroup.com

Atleast try and look things up before throwing up the bull★■◆● flag Ferno. You of all should know better than that.

[Ferno]

love that \"some reports suggest\" bit. nothing concrete though. The first question that went through my head when I saw that was 'which reports are these and why aren't these reports cited?'

I guess it carries the same weight as the crazy guy on the corner who claims sidewalks talk to him.

[Teddy]

that history channel piece was very biased, and did a great job of making anyone who questions what happened that day look like a nut....as it was supposed too.

I cant believe you guys eather have very bad memories or so want your lives to go on like normal that your willing to believe any lie...

Lets take the steel didnt melt on for size. I completely agree that it was impossable for jet fuel and the deseil fule(in building 7) to competly melt the steel causing the collapse... but how do you explane this...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8051631094

eye witness accounts from firemen cleaning up-
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 3573302287

i could post clips like this all day, there are plenty of PBS documentaries from the cleanup CLEARLY showing melted steel. Which, by the way, was all the way to the basement of all 3 buildings. There was not enought fuel present to account for all this melted steel, not by a long shot.

As for the fires in the buildings -

A fireman did make it up to the 78th floor of building 2(the first to collapse) right before it collapsed.... he said the fires were almost out, listen to the tapes, you can hear for yourself.

the fires in building 7 were not that bad at all, there are plenty of pictures
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

Funny thing in all this, no one talks about buildings 3,4,5 and 6.... these buildings had fires in them from top to bottom... and chunks of wtc 1 and 2 crush them causing parts to collapse, but these buildings had to be taken down durning the cleanup since they didnt collapse completly...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0
compare the damage and fires these buildings withstood with that of building 7... you should be starting to say hmmmm by now if there is any grey matter in that skull.
Also notice the thermal scans of the wtc complex, hot spots are found only under 1,2, and 7.... even though buildings 3-6 burned from top to bottom. Why is that?

Here is a clip talking about the fact that buildings 4 5 and 6 had to be taken down.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=0

So here is the big question, If you have bothered to listen to the firefighters audio tapes, you've heard them say the fires are almost out just before the collapse, and now you've seen that the steel did in fact melt, Just how did it happen??? Last i checked, steel dont just spontaniously melt without any help....

The whole idea of exploseves being used actually came from the firefighters... from the oral testomonies which is in the official report, over 500 people onsite when the collapse happened were interviewed, Over 130 of them reported hearing or even seeing the demolition wave. why do we dismiss such evidence so quickly...

here are 2 such quotes and who said them. check them out, they are legit.

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.) Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
[It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw.
...
He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them too.
...
I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like at eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes.

So do we dismiss what the people who were there saw? why was this never followed up on? These buildings collapsed, the first concrete reinforced steel buildings and no investigation, expecially building 7, since it fell by fire alone....By fire code, there was supposed to be and investigation of the rubble so future buildings could correct the \"mistakes\" made in the construction of these buildings. Funny thing here is the flaw seems to have only existed in buildings 1,2 and 7. If you remember way back, the familys of the firefighters suied Rudy G. to force him to stop shipping the cleaned up rubble overseas and investigate and test for why these buildings collapsed. thier case was never granted, all debris were promptly cleaned up and all evidence destroyed....


As you listen to the firefighters audio from that day, you will also notice how many radio in about bombs going off(this is most likey why these tapes were held from the public for so long)
Heck, the fellow who ran the control center for building 7 went on record stating that he had to be rescued from building 7 as the lobby was destroyed after the first plane hit. the firefighters had to cut a hole to let him and several other out as the lobby was so damaged, and this was before the second plane hit and nothing had hit building 7 at all!!!!


As far as why would the wtc complex get destroyed and the pentagon get hit instad of using nerve gas? it was never just about the body count, they were after money and destroying records for criminals who toed the line. There were quite a few hi profile criminals who got get out of jail free cards when building 7 went down. not to mention the fbi and finicial records stored in the section of the pentagon that were destroyed. The day before the pentagon got hit, they announced that over $400 billion was missing... sadly the records were moved to that section of the pentagon that was under renovation... this on top of the millions said to have been funneled throug computers starting one hour before collapse, and $160 billion in gold missing from building 4's vaults, $230 million was recovered from armored cars parked by building 5 though......

History is full of conspiracys, sadly we never pay any attention to them till it's too late. the romans never took Julius Cezr's power grabs seriously till he abolished the republic and became emperor...the same in recent times with Germany.
Read the book, They Thought They were Free, The Germans. It's a great book outlineing how the educated people of Germany let Hitler slowly grab power and do everthing that he did... it's very eye opening....

Sadly enough this wont be over till the US is united with Canada with a European Union Style government ruling over both counrties....

[Dakatsu]

Although I don't believe in the 911 conspiracy, I think the WTC7 going down is VERY suspicious.

[Ferno]

Back in 1998 I remember the calgary general being brought down by controlled demolition.

When I saw WTC7 come down it reminded me of the very same thing and thought to myself \"there's no way fire can do that.\"

[MD-2389]

Back in 1998 I remember the calgary general being brought down by controlled demolition.

When I saw WTC7 come down it reminded me of the very same thing and thought to myself "there's no way fire can do that."

Don't forget that the structure was already severely compromised by falling debris from the north tower. By the way, there was not a single blast cap found so explain to me how it was demo'd without explosives.

[Teddy]

no, building 7 hardly got nicked(there's plenty of picture evidence), buildings 4,5,&6 had major damage from falling debris and fire from top to bottom.... but they didnt fall.

Did you not click on any of the links? all are news broadcasts or pbs documentaries and hardly more then a few minuets each, Look at the facts before you post so you dont sound so increadbly ignorant......

[dissent]

not to mention the (apparently silent) drilling of many dozens (at least) of holes in the structural steel to hold the explosives, and the laying of hundreds of feet of wire to connect the explosive charges.

Then there's http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

[Ferno]

I didn't see any huge holes in 7.

and how MD? according to this picture WTC5 and and 6 would have absorbed some debris as teddy just said. there's been no mention of that in the official reports.

Also if there was damage from the falling towers, the most likely place would be on top, not at the base as shown by photos.

Blast caps are small objects or vials that contain nitroglycerin. they are used to initiate larger charges and detcord. When I used one to cut a piece of pipe, none of us could find any pieces of it. They were either destroyed in the small explosion or flung out quite a distance. All I saw at the end of the leads were two burnt wires.


heh yea I read a little bit of that debunking911 site. the passage they have about 'pulling' is funny. They're either trying to pull the woll over people's eyes or they've never watched a demoltion in progress.

I actually have a friend who's in demolition, I should ask him.

[Teddy]

dissent, there was no quiet drilling for the instillation of explosives, it was just labled as something else,construction work. Several weeks before 9/11, a huge \"security upgrade\" was peformed on buildings 1,2, and 7 which included powerdowns(turning off power to large sections of the building) and a few days before 9/11 all bomb sniffing dogs were removed from buildings 1,2 and 7.....

here you can read the news report were they admit that bomb sniffing dogs were removed....

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld ... 5660.story
Here you can hear Scott Forbes, an employee in a bank in one of the WTC buildings describing the power downs.


Keep in mind that Marvin Bush was in charge of security of the WTC complex till the day of 9/11....

[dissent]

Keep in mind that Marvin Bush was in charge of security of the WTC complex till the day of 9/11....

without doing exhaustive research, this claim seems bogus on two counts;
(a) Bush was on the board of a company previously linked with WTC security (therefore unlikely to be doing the day to day security operations himself), and
(b) that company's involvement ended well before sept. 10.
http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/20 ... stery.html

edit: there's more on the Securacom/Stratesec connection here
http://www.911myths.com/html/stratesec.html

[Ferno]

I read the second link dissent provided, and this struck me as odd: \"Incidentally, the “up to the day the buildings fell down” line is sometimes used as a basis for saying that “the contract ran out on September 11th”, but we think that’s a real stretch.\"

How is that a stretch? when a building you're working on comes down, the contract is terminated; simply because there is nothing to work on anymore.

Here's a profile on Stratasec

get this part.. \"Wirt D. Walker III, a distant relative of George W. Bush, is chairman of the board at Stratesec from 1992, and its CEO from 1999 until January 2002\". Seems slightly convenient for a relative of W to be CEO of a company directly involved with WTC, doesn't it.

[dissent]

Ferno,

near the bottom of the Stratasec article I linked, it poo-poo's the idea that there is any but a possibly distant relationship between GWB and Wirt Walker. I'm somwhat familiar with the Bush family tree; turns out I'm a full 7th cousin to GWB. I suppose you think I'm involved in the cover-up too. This kind of linkage is more happenstance than circumstantial.

[Ferno]

Ferno,

near the bottom of the Stratasec article I linked, it poo-poo's the idea that there is any but a possibly distant relationship between GWB and Wirt Walker. I'm somwhat familiar with the Bush family tree; turns out I'm a full 7th cousin to GWB. I suppose you think I'm involved in the cover-up too. This kind of linkage is more happenstance than circumstantial.

LOL, if that's the case, everyone's involved! But the fact remains Stratasec was still involved with WTC.

I just found it a little more than wierd.

Just got a response from my demolition buddy. To pull something is to remove/destroy it. so that debunking911 site is full of crap in that respect.

[woodchip]

Actually it is the environmentalists that were the real cause of the WTC collapsing. They were the ones who banned the use of abesto's and by-gosh by-golly, if the steel girders would have had abesto's fire proofing those 2 buildings would be standing proud today.

Amazing how normally intelligent people can get to believing lame brain conspiracy's. Next you will hear Santa Clause is just a prank to control childrens behavior.

[Testiculese]

My only concern is still that while Congress can't decide what to have for breakfast without 6 months going by, the Patriot Act was practically released the day before the towers were hit.

I doubt the government had a direct hand in it, but I don't doubt for a second that the upper echelon were handy enablers.