Why is Christianity demonized?

[Nightshade]

When there are clearly more violent and backward religions out there? (I'm an atheist btw.)

[fliptw]

because most of the global power is held in Christian hands.

[Duper]

because most of the global power is held in Christian hands.

rofltic


since when??? Perhaps by some who call themselves Christian. Certainly not by those who do their level best to follow in Jesus's footsteps.

[roid]

because the hypocrites dare to persecute other religions

[Ferno]

for the same reasons why people try and demonize other religions. *cough*

[Lothar]

1) History. We have that whole thing with crusades and political-religious persecutions and what not, many of which were caused by people who called themselves Christian (in some form or other). They didn't walk in Christ's footsteps, but they carried the label, and they did seriously bad stuff.

2) Personal experience with \"evangelism\". We call Christ's message the \"good news\", but Christians often preach \"bad news\" instead. I'm sure most people here, Christians included, can tell of a time when some random Christian has insulted and berated them in a ham-handed attempt at conversion. We're supposed to toss the seed of the gospel into the soil, but often, we toss a bag of rocks in the soil instead, and then we wonder why the seed doesn't grow. Very few of us have had up close and personal interaction with the weirder parts of Islam, but we've all experienced the nuttier segments of Christianity firsthand.

3) Stupid Christians. There are vocal segments of Christian society that call for such things as 6-day creationism taught as science, homosexuality being criminalized, Bible passages being displayed in our courts, and so on. Christians act hateful, stupid, bigoted, and hypocritical, and then tell non-Christians \"you should be just like me!\" They often have enough political clout to get stupid laws at least put up for consideration, which makes them a more present threat to your average person.

4) True Christianity is offensive. In its real form, it actually does tell you that you're not good enough, and you need to give yourself to God because you can't do it on your own. So even if you got rid of the historical atrocities, the ham-handed conversion attempts, and the stupidity of modern church culture, Christianity would still remain offensive and people would still have a problem with it.

[WarAdvocat]

Let's not forget the pushies:

You know the ones. They have an electrical contracting business, or maybe they have a hair salon, but the thing they have in common is that nobody leaves without a tract and a written invitation to their church!

Inappropriate IMO.

Then there's the friendlies:

They want to be your friend. They treat you nice for 10 minutes. You think \"hey they're pretty cool\", but it's all a prelude to guess what....an invitation to their church.

That is what earns my enmity on a day-to-day basis.

[TIGERassault]

Because people like b*tchin' about stuff.

That's about it, really.

[Kilarin]

They want to be your friend. They treat you nice for 10 minutes. You think "hey they're pretty cool", but it's all a prelude to guess what....an invitation to their church.

Not entirely fair to blame them for this.
Consider: You think everyone on the planet is about to die of a terrible disease, BUT you know a clinic where they offer a vaccine. Problem is, a large portion of the population doesn't believe in the disease OR the vaccine.

Now then, IF you really believed this, then everyone you talked to, wouldn't you feel obligated to at least TRY and mention to them that the vaccine was available? If you don't, you believe they WILL DIE. If you believe this and you DON'T try and spread the word, its proof that you really don't care about any of those people.

Christians are in the same boat. They think that everyone in the world has a terrible disease, and also that they know of the cure. It doesn't mean they are faking friendship just to get you to their church, quite the opposite. ESPECIALLY if they are your friend, they will want to tell you about the cure.

[WarAdvocat]

Kilarin, I'm not buying it. You're saying they do it with the best of intentions, and that excuses the shallow superficiality of their friendship. Remind yourself which road is paved with good intentions. I can somewhat excuse the \"pushies\" but not the \"friendlies\".

[Dakatsu]

rofltic

Word of the Day

[Ford Prefect]

When it comes to best intentioned creepiness the Mormons have that hands down over Christians IMHO. Rent a car in Utah and the earnest friendly smile, the \"gosh it's great to meet you, isn't what you say fascinating\" treatment from the clerk at the counter keeps you checking your baggage in case he is some kind of diversion. And Mormons don't seem to get slagged as often as Christians. Then again they are a relatively small group.

I think that Lothar has hit the highlights with his usual accuracy.

[Jeff250]

Now then, IF you really believed this, then everyone you talked to, wouldn't you feel obligated to at least TRY and mention to them that the vaccine was available? If you don't, you believe they WILL DIE. If you believe this and you DON'T try and spread the word, its proof that you really don't care about any of those people.

I didn't realize that Christians were such committed consequentialists all of a sudden.

1) History. We have that whole thing with crusades and political-religious persecutions and what not, many of which were caused by people who called themselves Christian (in some form or other). They didn't walk in Christ's footsteps, but they carried the label, and they did seriously bad stuff.

I think that Christians play the oh-but-X-wasn't-really-a-Christian card a little too often, and that in and of itself is irksome. There is no easy litmus test for whether or not somebody is "really" a Christian. I believe that it is a commonly held believe among Christians that we will be surprised as to who makes it to heaven and who does not. (Defining what "really" is a Christian becomes even more difficult if you don't even believe in heaven or that Christians are right at all.)

At very best, playing the then-he's-not-really-a-Christian card seems to smell of a certain "ad hocity", i.e., "if he did that, then he couldn't really have been a Christian!" This kind of thinking seems to preclude any Christian from ever doing something very evil, but I don't think that that's what we want to do. If so, maybe we need a new definition of Christian where people don't magically stop becoming Christians right before they do something very evil.

Your religion isn't just the sum of your texts or teachings. It's your people too. And you can't just divorce yourselves from the ones that make you look bad in front of all of the other religions.

On this note, I think that your text could use some editing on the topic of war and genocide. I'm well aware of all of the places where the Bible decries war and genocide. But you cannot deny that, in other parts, war and genocide are justified, even to the extent that it is "good" that we carry them out, such as when God commands that we do. That's a fairly dangerous precedent. I don't even know how you can be completely sure that the crusades were truly evil when God could have, without your knowledge, simply desired that they be done and then they would be good. (I mean, who would have guessed the Canaanite conquest?) This is another thing that irks me about the Christians. What they pass off as "the good" can be disturbing sometimes insofar as how hypocritical it is.

[Cuda68]

Organized religion is slavery with an honest and clean looking face that can turn violent. I think they should all be listed as terrorist groups.

Just my 2 cents - carry on.

[Krom]

Organized religion is slavery with an honest and clean looking face that can turn violent. I think they should all be listed as terrorist groups.

Just my 2 cents - carry on.

All religion isn't bad, but most people are on some level. Thus religion often ends up being abused.

[Testiculese]

Imposter!

[roid]

When it comes to best intentioned creepiness the Mormons have that hands down over Christians IMHO.

Mormons are Christians.
Jehovah's witnesses are Christians too, but they say they arn't (and it wouldn't surprise me if mormons say the same).

I think that's stupid. The only reason they say they arn't Christian is because they wish to distance themselves from what they term "false religion", which is of course just a blanket term for every OTHER religion but theirs.
It's typical "dehumanise the enemy" tactics - denying your simularitys.

to me, the definition of Christian is if you believe in Christ in some semblance ("Christ" as defined in the Bible). Thus Jews and Muslims are excluded. But chances are if you have "Christ" in your religion you're a "Christian" and i see you as every other Christian. No different.

But no of course they are all respectively right and everyone else is respectively wrong. sigh, Absolutism makes people so incredibly dumb.

[Duper]

It's not that simple roid.

It depends on who you say Christ is and what He did.

The Mormons (among other things) say that Jesus is the brother of Lucifer and that Adam became the god of this world. And that man (you or I) could ascend to become a god ourselves.

The JW's don't believe that Jesus is god, that he is a lesser god. JW was born (rather distantly) out of the Arrian hieracy that was put down during the convention of Niciea. ..sry, spelling way off tonight. This guys teachings were rediscovered in the late 1800's and eventually grew into what it is today.

This, I'm sure, sounds trivial to you, but when it comes to theology, it make a lot of difference. It's way late here and I don't have time to go into depth on it.

[roid]

even Muslims believe in Jesus, they are not Christians.

You have to believe that he is the \"Christ\" to be a chrisitian.


Just stop and look at the world \"Christian\"

Christ
CHRIST

that's all you need and BAM you're a subscriber..



if you can show me another holy book that uses the term Christ, i dunno maybe there are some.

[TIGERassault]

The thing I hate most about these religion debates is that the people of a religion are always classed as a group. Which they aren't! The only time they can be considered a group is when they're at X-religion only places and that their religion is about the same. But when you take the people of a religion as a whole, then it's much too easy to abuse, because you only need to take one separate belief of a few people and apply it to all of the group.

Also, WarAdvocat: No. The majority of friendly religion people are friendly out of regular human behavior. Only when they think they're friends with you will they want to tell you about their religion. In other words, most religion people aren't just being friendly to get you to join their religion.

[Duper]

even Muslims believe in Jesus, they are not Christians.

You have to believe that he is the "Christ" to be a chrisitian.


Just stop and look at the world "Christian"

Christ
CHRIST

that's all you need and BAM you're a subscriber..



if you can show me another holy book that uses the term Christ, i dunno maybe there are some.

Roid, you seem to be confused.
"believing" in Jesus does not mean that you agreed he exists... in mean you are placing your trust in Him and you've dedicated your life to Him.
o_0 I thought you knew that.
Christ is a Greek word that was later used in conjunction with Jesus and the term Christian was given by the Romans meaning "little Christs"; which was not long after that.

Muslims believe that Jesus was a good teacher and some a prophet, but they do not believe He is the messiah.

[Sirius]

I think that Christians play the oh-but-X-wasn't-really-a-Christian card a little too often, and that in and of itself is irksome.

Lothar wasn't claiming that those people weren't Christians, just that their actions in those cases did not follow in Christ's footsteps.

[TechPro]

if you can show me another holy book that uses the term Christ, i dunno maybe there are some.

Since you asked... The Book Of Mormon

[roid]

even Muslims believe in Jesus, they are not Christians.

You have to believe that he is the "Christ" to be a chrisitian.


Just stop and look at the world "Christian"

Christ
CHRIST

that's all you need and BAM you're a subscriber..



if you can show me another holy book that uses the term Christ, i dunno maybe there are some.

Roid, you seem to be confused.
"believing" in Jesus does not mean that you agreed he exists... in mean you are placing your trust in Him and you've dedicated your life to Him.

Obviously it means both, as you can't place your trust in Christ unless you already believe he exists.

I think you are confused here.
Pay attention to how i have been using the terms Jesus and Christ seperately. Jesus is just some dude's name, Muslims believe in Jesus but they don't believe he is the Christ.

Christians believe Jesus is Christ. So they just mix and blur the 2 together, like Christ is Jesus's actual last name or something.

...
o_0 I thought you knew that.
Christ is a Greek word that was later used in conjunction with Jesus and the term Christian was given by the Romans meaning "little Christs"; which was not long after that.

Muslims believe that Jesus was a good teacher and some a prophet, but they do not believe He is the messiah.

yeah so they don't refer to him as Christ. But they still believe in Jesus - they believe Jesus exists as a prophet.

When you believe in the toothfairy it just means you believe in it's existance, it doesn't mean you worship it as a god.
If i believed in Jesus - it could mean i believe in one of a few abrahamic myths. But if i say i believe in Christ it's obvious i'm a BibleNut and not a KoranNut.

if you can show me another holy book that uses the term Christ, i dunno maybe there are some.

Since you asked... The Book Of Mormon

That's a derivative work based on the Bible.

[TechPro]

if you can show me another holy book that uses the term Christ, i dunno maybe there are some.

Since you asked... The Book Of Mormon

That's a derivative work based on the Bible.

Bzzzt! Wrong.

[Duper]

the book of Mormon is a unique work. The LDS have their own translation of the bible however.

Really roid. you're only managing to show that you really don't understand what Christianity is about. It seems you've bought a lot of third hand hearsay. Which is really sad as there has been some very good teaching on exactly what Christianity is here.

[TechPro]

the book of Mormon is a unique work. The LDS have their own translation of the bible however.

True, the book of Mormon is a unique work. As for the Bible they use, it isn't their translation. It's the "King James" translation which was the commonly used Bible translation used by english speaking peoples at that time (around 1830). A number of years back the LDS started including with it a very in depth topical guide and bible dictionary with it.

These days you can go to 5 different "Christian" religions and encounter 5 different translations of the Bible, and none of them agree with each other. No wonder there are so many different ideas on what to believe.

[Duper]

Whoops, you're right there. The Jehovah Witnesses have their own translation. And that's significant in their case. They remove just about every passage referring to the deity of Jesus. My bad.

[Palzon]

In this particular thread, everyone here is doing such a lovely job of ignoring that Thunderpu$$y is a spooge guzzling troll. Seriously, Kudos to the DBB for not taking the bait.

My point is just this: Not everyone hates Muslims the same way you do. Sorry, Dave! Framing the discussion around anti-Christian attitudes is pathetic on your part, but is unsurprising given that you are a douche nozzle.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Whoops, you're right there. The Jehovah Witnesses have their own translation. And that's significant in their case. They remove just about every passage referring to the deity of Jesus. My bad.

So the witnesses aren't christians and don't believe in Jesus?

[Duper]

Whoops, you're right there. The Jehovah Witnesses have their own translation. And that's significant in their case. They remove just about every passage referring to the deity of Jesus. My bad.

So the witnesses aren't christians and don't believe in Jesus?

not like most Christian denominations, no.

[Kilarin]

So the witnesses aren't christians and don't believe in Jesus?

It all depends on how you define Christian. The dictionary def is simply "believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ:"
In which case, yes, the JW's would qualify as Christian.

The problem is that when many of us say "Christian" we mean: "Someone who acknowledges that Christ is God, equal with God the Father, and follows His teachings"
By that definition, JW's are not "Christians".

The biggest problem here is that "Christian" has been redefined into a useless word that means "Someone who behaves as a Christian ought". We already HAVE words for "nice", "Kind", "Thoughtful", and "Unselfish". But no, we had to take a perfectly good word with a useful definition and redefine it into uselessness.

The result is that discussing whether a particular religion or person is actually "Christian" or not, instead of being an interesting theological discussion, becomes an insult. As soon as you've said that someone is not a "Christian" they think you mean they don't behave in an admirable matter.

And that's a darn shame. We keep loosing good words.

[Hostile]

In this particular thread, everyone here is doing such a lovely job of ignoring that Thunderpu$$y is a spooge guzzling troll. Seriously, Kudos to the DBB for not taking the bait.

My point is just this: Not everyone hates Muslims the same way you do. Sorry, Dave! Framing the discussion around anti-Christian attitudes is pathetic on your part, but is unsurprising given that you are a douche nozzle.

ROFLMAO... Sorry for the non-content, but I don't care who you are.... That is funny.

[Tunnelcat]

Like I said before, religion is just a mass psychosis in a socially accepted form.

The downside to religion is that it's used to force a type of social moral conformity onto others that are not a member of that religion. Evangelical Christianity is an example of a proactive religion (although not the only example), you're either with them or a sinner to be reviled if you do not convert to their beliefs.

Unfortunately they're now playing politics in an effort to reshape many of our U.S. laws in the into their model of the universe.

[TechPro]

The downside to religion is that it's used to force a type of social moral conformity onto others that are not a member of that religion. Evangelical Christianity is an example of a proactive religion (although not the only example), you're either with them or a sinner to be reviled if you do not convert to their beliefs.

Unfortunately they're now playing politics in an effort to reshape many of our U.S. laws in the into their model of the universe.

Unfortunatly, the other side is doing the same "playing politics".

Just one example (out of many possible examples): There are efforts by atheists trying to stop prayer in schools. My complaint is this: Just because you don't want to pray doesn't mean I should not be allowed to pray. Just as much as one person has a right to not have any religious beliefs and thus should not be required to do or participate in religious actions ... I should be allowed to have religious beliefs and do and participate in religious actions.

Both sides should be allowed to do their thing. One (either side) should NOT have to stop in order to allow the other. BOTH should be able to co-exist. Anything else is wrong.

The same should apply to people of differing religious practices. The different "flavors" of Christianity, Atheists, Muslim, whatever ... should be willing to co-exist ... instead of trying to stop or wipe each other out.

Dang ... this got me rantin'

[Admiral Thrawn]

[quote="KilarinThe problem is that when many of us say "Christian" we mean: "Someone who acknowledges that Christ is God, equal with God the Father, and follows His teachings"
By that definition, JW's are not "Christians".

Here's what it gives for the definition of Christian at dictionary.com

Chris·tian /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kris-chuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn't Christian.
–noun 7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.
10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.
11. a male given name.

so yea, by that definition, the JW's are Christian. You bring up a good point though. Where in the bible does it say that Jesus is equal with god? I thought one was the son and one was the father. That Jesus was God's first creation. If that's the case, how are they equal? I thought nobody was greater than god.

[Duper]

hehe..

From a theological and apologetic point of view this is kind of funny. Man description of God from a secular (non-theological) source.

That really is a ...er .. convoluted definition.

by that definition, the JW's are Christian.

Which part? Lots of people consider themselves Christian because they go to church, but I'm afraid that isn't enough. I'm sure there are many Christian JW's but I would think many would be surprised.

Keith Green once said that going to church no more makes you a Christian than going into a McDonald's makes a cheese burger. A bit silly, as it was intended, but you get the picture.

And as many of you are so fond of Wiki, here ya go. Keith Green

[roid]

JWs are Christians. But to them the word "Christian" ties the;m in with all of the rest of Christianity (which they regard as false religion) - so they shun the term and say they are NOT Christian. But they fool no-one lol.

I think Duper is suggesting that to be a Christian you have to believe in the "Trinity" (JWs don't believe in the Trinity. They believe Jesus is God's son, God is a seperate and supreme entity to Jesus, and the holy spirit/ghost/active-force is merely God's power or force that he uses to do ★■◆●.)

Anyway, if you think you must believe in the Trinity to be catagorised as Christian - i disagree.

the book of Mormon is a unique work. The LDS have their own translation of the bible however.

True, the book of Mormon is a unique work. As for the Bible they use, it isn't their translation. It's the "King James" translation which was the commonly used Bible translation used by english speaking peoples at that time (around 1830). A number of years back the LDS started including with it a very in depth topical guide and bible dictionary with it.

These days you can go to 5 different "Christian" religions and encounter 5 different translations of the Bible, and none of them agree with each other. No wonder there are so many different ideas on what to believe.

i really don't get this.

A derivative work is somethign that is BASED on somethign else. The book of Mormon is BASED on the Bible, it even plagurises sections of the King James version word for word INCLUDING THE MISTAKES. If both of the Books were copywritten - they would have to pay royalties. Is not that called a Derivative work?

[roid]

the book of Mormon is a unique work. The LDS have their own translation of the bible however.

Really roid. you're only managing to show that you really don't understand what Christianity is about. It seems you've bought a lot of third hand hearsay. Which is really sad as there has been some very good teaching on exactly what Christianity is here.

Christianity, i was in the stage show. Been there done that man. And I now see very little that deviates from my world-view on what Christianity IS and ISN'T.

TL;DR stfu I'm the gawddamn batman.

[CUDA]

Where in the bible does it say that Jesus is equal with god? I thought one was the son and one was the father. That Jesus was God's first creation. If that's the case, how are they equal? I thought nobody was greater than god.

John 10:25-33
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. 26The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 27but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God

here ya go Thrawn