Defining Marriage In The Constitution

[TIGERassault]

Thorpe,
Explain, in detail, how homosexuality is harmful, because you're not doing that here. The only other points you made were \"it's not what I call normal\" and \"it's against my religion\": the first makes you a bigot, and the second makes you self-centered, so \"it's harmful\" is the only point you've made that might save you from disgrace.

[CDN_Merlin]

I do want everyone to agree with this. I also want everyone to be a Christian. But there is the little matter of free will. Something I would no more violate than God does. You can't force a person to believe something, and you shouldn't try.

You folks that try to portray me as taking my cues from a book without thought or consideration are either very stupid, purposefully ignorant, or new to this board.

You contradict yourself in this paragraph. On one hand you say you WANT everyone to agree with you but on the other you say you can't force someone to beleive something they don't want to beleive.

I find what you are trying to do is push your beliefs onto others but not say they are religious in nature. You can't stop homosexuality.

You say we are being suckered into this? I think anyone who still beleives in God to be the sucker.

People can call what's abnormal normal, and what's wrong right within the confines of their own home and lives, but when they take it public and try to push their twisted ideas on me and on my country, I will not pull any punches by playing according to the rules they've set.

Hundreds of years ago, people thought that people who could heal wounds or sickness with some herbal medicines were evil and burned them at the stake. We have evolved and realized they were only helping the sick. But because of their lack of open mindedness, they murdered thousands for this.

Same goes for homosexuality. It is so commonplace now that we have no choice but to recognize that it is becoming more and more normal to have them in our lives.

If you want to be the ostrich and stick your head in the ground, by all means do so. But remember that in the end, no matter what you do, you won't stop their them from being gay. Evolution happens and you need to let go of your 1000 year old beleifs and get with the present.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I am not contradicting myself. I think it's incredible that you see contradiction there.

My convictions on this matter are not entirely religious in nature, and that's pretty obvious unless you assume that all of my arguments must somehow be religious in nature because I'm a Christian.

When I say "suckered," I was refering to people who are opposed to homosexuality (Kilarin, Foil?, ...). But anyone who buys into the idea that the homosexual agenda, or pro-homosexuality is about individual freedom has been suckered.

And now you say there is no choice, and confuse and combine accepting the reality that homosexuality is becoming more common with accepting homosexuality itself as natural/acceptable... Which is where I cease to even take you seriously.

That includes your ostrich statement, which is laughable. I'm not hiding, I'm contesting.

But remember that in the end, no matter what you do, you won't stop them from being gay.

Read my last post again.

That wasn't a logical/reasonable argument, it was an assassination attempt.

[CDN_Merlin]

When I say \"suckered,\" I was refering to people who are opposed to homosexuality (Kilarin, Foil?, ...). But anyone who buys into the idea that the homosexual agenda, or pro-homosexuality is about individual freedom has been suckered.

And now you say there is no choice, and confuse and combine accepting the reality that homosexuality is becoming more common with accepting homosexuality itself as natural/acceptable... Which is where I cease to even take you seriously.

All they want is freedom like \"regular\" couples. They want the same rights that when one of them dies, the other can claim the pension etc. They also want to be legally seen as a married couple in the court of law. I don't see an issue with this unless you are religious and think the definition of marriage is only between a male and a female. Like I said before, homosexuality is so commonplace these days there's no stopping this movement to give them the same rights.

I never said being gay is normal.

Same goes for homosexuality. It is so commonplace now that we have no choice but to recognize that it is becoming more and more normal to have them in our lives.

I said it's BECOMING more normal to see MORE gays in our lives. This doesn't imply that the idea of homosexuality is normal. I understand that life would cease to exist if we were all gay. Life is about procreation and gays can't procreate by themselves. But this doesn't mean we should shun them.

What about all the deformed people in this world. Should we just kill them all because they are different? No, we accepted they are different and realized they can contribute to society like everyone else can. Same goes for gay couples.

Yes, I'm a bit weary on them raising children but who am I to say they can't do a better job then some NORMAL couples?

[Foil]

When I say "suckered," I was refering to people who are opposed to homosexuality (Kilarin, Foil?, ...). But anyone who buys into the idea that the homosexual agenda, or pro-homosexuality is about individual freedom has been suckered.

On the contrary, I believe it's often the religious folk who have been taken by the common paranoia that there's a "conspiracy of homosexuals who are just using civil rights as a cover for their real agenda (taking over the country, or brainwashing our children, etc.)".

[Testiculese]

You are contradicting yourself, Thorne. Horribly. You're trying to force the religious view upon us that being gay is some horrible thing that's going to make the world end, yet you don't want to push your beliefs on us. Bull! All you've been doing is pushing your very intolerant beliefs.

All of us are assuming all your arguments are religious because that's the only perspective you've shown. It's the only perspective you seem to work with.

It's only (partially) becoming more common because people aren't as scared of people like you anymore, and they can freely admit it (Though I don't see the point of doing so, if you're gay, be gay and shut the @#$%^ up about it). The other reason it's becoming more common is because of all these genetic mutations from all the chemicals in our lives are screwing up zygotes before they're a week in the womb.

However, contrary to your narrow world view, homosexuality IS ENTIRELY natural. Sorry. You can say it's not normal, everyone will agree with that.

[Sergeant Thorne]

You are contradicting yourself, Thorne. Horribly. You're trying to force the religious view upon us that being gay is some horrible thing that's going to make the world end, yet you don't want to push your beliefs on us. Bull! All you've been doing is pushing your very intolerant beliefs.

I find it incredible that you accuse me of "pushing" my beliefs. I'm arguing my beliefs, and I'll make no apology for that, but where does the "push" come in? Homosexuality is a horrible thing. And I don't care if the people who disagree think that's intolerant. To the degree that I will not tolerate ideas that I believe to be deranged or wrong, it is absolutely intolerant. But a person is not wrong because they're intolerant, they're only wrong if they're wrong. Now if I were abusive or cruel towards homos, that would be wrong. But I'm not. That's just not how I am.

All of us are assuming all your arguments are religious because that's the only perspective you've shown. It's the only perspective you seem to work with.

I'll take that as a compliment. But even though my views are shaped to a great degree by the Bible and my faith, I have argued from other points. Actually, I would say I have more often done so than not. When was the last time I told you you were wrong because the Bible said so? But I don't compromise my convictions for the sake of acceptance. I'm not one of these lame people who go to church on Sunday but in the end don't really believe it. I do believe it. The fact that that's my perspective shouldn't really come as a shock to you, except that there are so many "Christians" who don't. If I didn't believe it was really true, I would drop Christianity like a bad habit. I'd be off doing something else.

It's only (partially) becoming more common because people aren't as scared of people like you anymore, and they can freely admit it (Though I don't see the point of doing so, if you're gay, be gay and shut the @#$%^ up about it).

Why should anyone be scared of me? 'cause I'm going to rain on their little party? In person I may be kinda serious sometimes, but I'm really not that scary.

However, contrary to your narrow world view, homosexuality IS ENTIRELY natural. Sorry. You can say it's not normal, everyone will agree with that.

Contrary to your belief, my world-view is very broad in it's scope. That doesn't mean I always have the answers for everything, personally (do you?), but I firmly believe that I've got the right starting point to find them. Don't line me up with the religious nuts you folks love to hate. I'm intelligent enough, if I do say so myself, to know when something doesn't hold water.

[CDN_Merlin]

To the degree that I will not tolerate ideas that I believe to be deranged or wrong, it is absolutely intolerant.

What about the people who think the bible is a crock os sh*t? You think we should be in the same boat as homos because we don't agree with your religious view?

I find it extremely retarded to follow a book written thousands of years ago, in a language that has been forgotten and translated how many times before even translated to English. I also think religious people are off their rocker to believe someone could have the powers that Jesus had.

I find it incredible that you accuse me of \"pushing\" my beliefs. I'm arguing my beliefs, and I'll make no apology for that, but where does the \"push\" come in?

You are pushing your beliefs because according to the bible, homosexuality is wrong. Have you not read the studies on it? They say it's a chemical imbalance and childhood trauma that leads to being gay. You are religious because that's is what you were TAUGHT as a child by your parents.


I don't think you'll convince anyone in this thread to see things your way Thorne. To me, this is just another case of a religious person pushing their twisted beliefs on others.

I had a friend who was a born again Christian and I told him to stop pushing that sh*t on me. Guess what he did? Yep, so I stopped being his friend. For some ungodly reason, I've never met a single religious person who didn't try to change my beliefs about god, jesus or the bible constantly.

Do you ever see non religious people knocking at your door telling you to repent and forsake the bible and believe in science? of course you don't. Only religious people do that.

[Spidey]

\"Do you ever see non religious people knocking at your door telling you to repent and forsake the bible and believe in science? of course you don't. Only religious people do that.\"


Heh, I guess you don’t have the same brand of Liberals up there as we do in the states.

[CDN_Merlin]

"Do you ever see non religious people knocking at your door telling you to repent and forsake the bible and believe in science? of course you don't. Only religious people do that."


Heh, I guess you don’t have the same brand of Liberals up there as we do in the states.

Those are politicians. If and when they do knock at my door, I don't bother answering.

[Foil]

Guys, come on. Thorne is right to argue for his beliefs as a Christian, in the same sense that you guys are right to argue your beliefs.

This is the DBB E&C discussion forum. Stating one's beliefs is not "pushing" them. (If it were, we would all be "pushing our belief system".)

--------

Now, while I have a couple of minutes, I do want to get back on the original topic.

Now if I were abusive or cruel towards homos, that would be wrong. But I'm not. That's just not how I am.

I don't think you're cruel to homosexuals, or intentionally treat them badly. As a Christian, I totally agree with your statements that homosexuality is wrong; that's made quite clear in scripture.

However, I do think the perception of some of what you've said (whether it was intended or not) reflects a pretty common attitude among Christians that is unfairly cruel and only tends to alienate them.

You or I or some other Christian may be talking about the ethical problems with the homosexual lifestyle, but (especially when terms like "homos" or "f**s" or "deranged" are used) it comes across as nothing less than a personal attack.

Maybe it's just misunderstanding at times, but from what I've been told by homosexual friends and co-workers, it's mostly because 95% of the time, their personal experience has been that Christians (especially pastors) are just about the cruelest people they've dealt with.

Maybe it's partly because Christians in the U.S. almost invariably view anything which even mentions homosexuality as part of some "homosexual agenda conspiracy". Maybe it's partly due to people just not knowing how to react. Or maybe it's just how it appears; when it comes to homosexuals, Christians often treat them as a few rungs lower than the worst criminals.

Whatever the case, I'd say that's how your posts are being received, Thorne.

[CDN_Merlin]

I personally think homosexuality is not normal myself but I accept that it's a condition set by what I type above. But that doesn't stop me from treating them just like everyone else.


Trust me, I have no choice as someone in my family is gay.

[Spidey]

Actually Homosexuality is perfectly normal.

Out of every 100 people born X number of them are Homosexual, always has been always will be, therefore the only abnormality possible is the number of them born over any given time.

If there were never any gays, and then all of a sudden there were some, then you could say they were abnormal.

But it seems to me like gays are a normal part of humanity.

[Kilarin]

Do you ever see non religious people knocking at your door telling you to repent and forsake the bible and believe in science? of course you don't. Only religious people do that.

Heh, I guess you don't have the same brand of Liberals up there as we do in the states. Razz

Ha! While it is true that the anti-Christians may be less likely to come knocking on your door, it is ALSO true that evangelical atheist exist. Richard Dawkins is a good example.

You yourself, CDN_Merlin, make MANY attempts right here on this forum to convince others that believing in God is foolish. You may not be knocking on doors, but you are attempting to convert. (And just by the way, I am 100% behind you feeling comfortable stating and attempting to spread your beliefs)

Stating one's beliefs is not "pushing" them.

Absolutely! BUT, with the following caveat: Once someone starts advocating for legislation, they ARE pushing.

[CDN_Merlin]

Kil, I'm not trying to convert, I'm trying to have people open their minds to other possibilities. There is a difference.

I was raised catholic, so I know about church etc. I just chose to follow my own path when I reached about 10.

[Duper]

hahaha.. because you're a Christian doesn't mean you're closed minded. We all choose our own path; at different ages perhaps, but we choose.

I chose Christ. It was a deliberate decision that took something like 15+ years to mull over. I was raised in church, not catholic, but protestant.

Personally, I think that everyone is \"closed minded\" to some degree. And that's a GOOD thing. Why? otherwise folks would be changing their minds about everything nearly every day. It would be waffle 24/7. I believe homosexuality is wrong. I have no idea what you (anyone reading this) think I mean by this, but I'm sure you really don't know. And for the record, my daughter is pregnant by a gay transvestite and considers herself Bi. So. I should have cause to hate and I DO Not. I don't agree and they both have their set of issues but they're both decent people. I know a LOT of individuals that are NOT gay that are FARRRR worse people.

[Kilarin]

I'm not trying to convert, I'm trying to have people open their minds to other possibilities. There is a difference.

convert: to cause to adopt a different religion, political doctrine, opinion, etc

So what's the difference between trying to get someone to "open their minds to other possibilities" and "trying to get someone to change their opinion" ?

[roid]

excuse my directness, but:
could you explain the whole \"gay (not bi) man have sex with your daughter\" thing? Wouldn't that suggest he too were bi?

[Duper]

yeah. but he wants a sex change... she doesn't

[roid]

(warning - strangely used pronouns of HE & SHE incomming, trans people prefer to be referred to as their adopted pronoun - thus 'SHE': )

oh, that is a M2F tranSEXUAL (and possibly transGENDER, if she believes she is mentally female - which is likely if she wants to transition to female).

A transVESTITE (what you said) is someone who just wears the clothing of the opposite sex. But does not self-identify as the opposite sex (unless playing).

When you say \"he's gay\" do you mean it in the sense that - once she has transitioned fully (and possibly surgically) into female, she will continue in a lesbian relationship with your daughter - thus \"gay\".
?
Homosexuality can be hard to define when transGENDER/transSEXUAL issues are also involved

Or do you mean: she was once, but is no longer sexually interested in your daughter, but now solely interested in men. And since you see her as male, this is gay in your eyes.
?

Just as an example of how varied people are: You can have a M2F transexual who always liked women. He started off as a heterosexual male - but post-op is a lesbian.
Just an example of both sexual preference (pre-op physically heterosexual, but mentally homosexual), mental gender (mentally gender was always female), and physical sex (pre-op male vs post-op female) all being seperate. Wild huh

[Tunnelcat]

This is just too weird to pass up and very appropriate for this thread. The pregnant man!

[Spidey]

That title is sooo disingenuous.

“The transgender community urged “him” not to go public”.

I wonder why…maybe because it would blow the myth that you can actually change your gender.

[Jeff250]

He said that he specifically chose to not have his sexual genitalia operated on, one of the reasons being that he wanted to reserve the possibility of having a child. He said that he didn't view child-bearing to be a uniquely female property.

[roid]

You're right Spidey, you can't change your mental gender.
And he was born mentally male.

And the question you quoted - was DIRECTLY ANSWERED STRAIGHT AFTERWARDS IN THE VIDEO. so what are you getting at? u trollin?
They groups said something like \"they wern't sure the world was ready\". To extrapolate, if i may, they are saying they are worried about a backlash.

[roid]

Pregnant man Thomas Beatie is a pretty huge topic on his own, and probably a good place to split this topic anew - this thread is already 10 pages long.
Mods can we get a split?

[Spidey]

Roid…

You don’t enjoy talkin to me, but you sure enjoy taunting me.

So allow me to be blunt.

Anyone that believes Thomas Beatie is a man who’s pregnant is stupid! Technology does not yet have the ability to change a persons sex.

And just how many genders does a human have anyway? Mind…Body & Soul? Did I miss any?

Anyway I got your troll right here, when you and your ilk learn to talk to people as equals maybe people will respond to you differently. You think you could ever be my teacher, that’s a perfect example of how you sit up on high and preach down to others. And when I ever start thinking like you or Ford, I’m gonna find a tall building, climb up. And jump off.

Have a nice day…

[Jeff250]

And just how many genders does a human have anyway? Mind…Body & Soul? Did I miss any?

Some terminology: A person's sex refers to whether they produce male or female gametes. A person's gender refers to their self or social conception as being male or female. The two terms can generally be interchanged, except in conversations of this topic, where greater specificity is required. For example, the claim that a person cannot change their gender is not the same as the claim that a person cannot change their sex.

[Spidey]

Ok fine…but the part of him that is pregnant is a woman.

[Ford Prefect]

Gee Spidey what did I do? And I actually have to agree that genetically this person is female. Surgery can alter the appearance and mentally who knows what is what but if you have all the hormones and physical equipment to bear children then you're pretty much female. (I have a different definition of \"woman\")
A true transgendered person would take hormone treatments that would have altered them to the point where pregnancy was not an option. Nor would a person that truly felt they were a male want to bear children.
This is just one of those weird people that make up some of the shades of grey in the world.
Quick. Should he/she get married so the child won't be a bastard?

[Spidey]

Oh yea…I did mean to say “Female”

So the following would be true…

That man’s sex is female.

[Tunnelcat]

He/she probably didn't have the sex change surgery because it really isn't viable. They can't get it to look or function quite like normal male genitalia would, so most female to male transgendered people opt not to have the lower surgery done, only the top. The male to female they can make a lot more realistic and functional, so you commonly see more of these surgeries done.

As far as I'm concerned, if you keep the equipment and USE it for it's intended purpose, you're still that sex. If he had a male brain, why would he want to bear a child? That seems to be a female trait to me, so there must be some female left in his brain. What true male would want to even get pregnant anyway?

[roid]

Anyone that believes Thomas Beatie is a man who’s pregnant is stupid! Technology does not yet have the ability to change a persons sex.

that depends on how you define sex doesn't it.

mental, genetic, physical, sexual performance, ability to reproduce?
- mental gender - looks like it can't be changed so easily.
- at the rate genetic engineering is progressing, we'll soon be able to change genetic sex.
- we can change physical sex pretty well.
- sexual performance can be a problem for F2M transexuals such as Thomas, penis constructive surgery is still quite unacceptable, but he hasn't opted for that anyway.
- we can't yet adjust the ability to reproduce. Although there has been some promising research in enabling females to produce sperm (i'm not kidding).

And just how many genders does a human have anyway? Mind…Body & Soul? Did I miss any?

It's becoming more commonly accepted that Humanity has a "field" of gender. It spans all the way from Hyper masculine, to an androgenous middle, to Hyper feminine.

Ok fine…but the part of him that is pregnant is a woman.

Oh yea…I did mean to say “Female”

So the following would be true…

That man’s sex is female.

How would you feel if you had a heart transplant from a woman. Would you be all freaked out at the thought that it would personally compromise your gender identity?

Quick. Should he/she get married so the child won't be a bastard?

not sure if you're joking here. He is married, it's in the video. (remember this is a part 1/5)

As far as I'm concerned, if you keep the equipment and USE it for it's intended purpose, you're still that sex. If he had a male brain, why would he want to bear a child? That seems to be a female trait to me, so there must be some female left in his brain. What true male would want to even get pregnant anyway?

we're not so dichotamous.
Thomas Beatie has a rather liberal sense of gender yes, but he's not alone.

i have a feeling a lot of people will play the no-true-scottsman game. "Oh, he's not a true man, a true man wouldn't do that."

I know there's some ppl in this thread that feel a certain way about transexuals. So i'd like to point this out:
You cannot logically say both of these things at once:
- Thomas isn't a man because he's ok with being pregnant.
- Male to Female transexuals arn't real women, even though they wouldn't mind being pregnant.

To say that Thomas isn't a man because he's ok with being pregnant - you are saying that it's mentally incompatible with the male psyche. So you are saying that true gender is in the mind and Thomas's compliance with pregnancy betrays his mental male gender identity.
I'd like to point out that this automatically means you admit that Male to Female transexuals ARE real women (even though born male), because they likely wouldn't mind being pregnant (if it were possible).

One either has to accept this. Or accept that aspects of gender identity are fluid within humanity, the 2 sexes/genders are not as sharply defined as we think - even mentally. I think it's no coincidence that Republicans are more oft to accuse Democrat males of being "not real men".
The insecure conservative mindset at work.

[Spidey]

“How would you feel if you had a heart transplant from a woman. Would you be all freaked out at the thought that it would personally compromise your gender identity? “


Would that heart be from a male woman or a female woman?

[Ford Prefect]

Ford Prefect wrote:
Quick. Should he/she get married so the child won't be a bastard?


not sure if you're joking here. He is married, it's in the video. (remember this is a part 1/5)

Just a weak attempt to return to the original topic.

[roid]

“How would you feel if you had a heart transplant from a woman. Would you be all freaked out at the thought that it would personally compromise your gender identity? “


Would that heart be from a male woman or a female woman?

what do you think

[Spidey]

Anybody see South Park tonight? Eek! A Penis! LOL

The transsexual sees the Oprah interview with the pregnant man, and decides that he’s really still a man.

[roid]

Mr Garrison eh? Hehe, his unsettled sexuality is a running joke it seems