Complete Control

[Aggressor Prime]

In the age of the Ancient Greeks, the greatest fear of the West was tyranny from the East. Well, now in 2008, tyranny has been conquered by democracy, and that problem has faded away. However, I would like to point out that technology is creating a new tyranny that is far more powerful than totalitarianism, Complete Control (well, over the body and mind, not the soul). It is inevitable that technology will allow us to connect our minds to the computer world. It is inevitable that schools will be replaced with downloads to the brain. And it is also inevitable that this will lead to everyone being so intelligent that anyone can hack the learning setup and brainwash everyone to become one's slaves. Everyone's bodies and minds will belong to one person. It is only a matter of time. So instead of focusing this discussion on how to avoid this event, as it is merely a matter of time as the hacking age of today proves time and time again with piracy, let us focus on who you would prefer to have Complete Control, be it yourself, someone you know, or a crazy hacker.

Do you even care?
Do you want the one who has Complete Control to have it for power, or so that someone else doesn't abuse power?
If someone can handle the power of Complete Control, who do you think it is, who do you think is incorruptable by Complete Control?
Or do you think this event will mean the doom of humanity?

[Testiculese]

Where've you been? This was accomplished years ago, no brain downloads needed. Just look at the past 5 generations for proof. Past 10 even...They're all indoctrinated zombies. Can't think for themselves, they do whatever TV or any authority figure, no matter how petty, tells them to do.

The worst people in humanity will always have control, because they desire it the most.

[Aggressor Prime]

No, that is loose control. People can still manipulate the physical world at their discretion. I'm talking about a severing of the physical world from the spiritual world, a severing of mind from soul (without death), in which all thoughts, memories, and feelings will be under the perfect control of an individual that is not you, or you if you are up to the challenge of claiming power (or you if the one in power merely restricts humans physically and not mentally).

[Foil]

Your premise is that this will happen to such an extent that there will be only one person who completely controls every single other human on Earth?

Sorry, but in my humble opinion, humanity is far too disorganized, splintered, hateful and self-destructive to ever pull off something like that.

[Aggressor Prime]

Your premise is that this will happen to such an extent that there will be only one person who completely controls every single other human on Earth?

Sorry, but in my humble opinion, humanity is far too disorganized, splintered, hateful and self-destructive to ever pull off something like that.

Uh, what you just said proves my point. This works best when humanity is disorganized. Without control, a single human being can create a nanorobot that can reproduce and spread to every single human being and therefore lead to a one world ruler. With perfect knowledge, creating such a device as a mind controlling nanorobot that can reproduce is not a matter of intelligence, just how much someone wants to take power. And many people are very hungry for power, be it for good or evil.

And you don't even have to go that route. With everyone hooked up to a perfect, constant communication network produced by the next-gen technological age for the purpose of higher learning (really exploring areas of knowledge never explored before) since otherwise would mean unemployment as everything else is run by machines, a person could easily hack such a system with perfect knowledge. There is no need to create super nanorobots.

Think of yourself. If you had the ability to claim Complete Control and you knew everyone else had the same ability, what would you do? It is like if everyone had their own personal nuclear weapon, but without the death and destruction, just something more powerful, Complete Control.

[Foil]

Uh, what you just said proves my point. This works best when humanity is disorganized.

So... the human tendency toward disorganization, hate and self-destruction leads to an eventual scenario where everything perfectly organized and controlled? You'll have to pardon my skepticism.

[Tunnelcat]

We don't need to worry about someone gaining 'Complete Control' yet. Since most software written by humans at the present is SO buggy and error prone, I'd be more worried about 'Fried Brain Syndrome' from all those downloads than anything else.

Now if MACHINES or COMPUTERS were somehow able to be enlisted or programmed to write error and bug free code for download to the brain, maybe then! But then we have the chicken and egg problem. Someone has to program and build those computers to do this, hence errors or bugs can creep in here as well.

[Aggressor Prime]

We don't need to worry about someone gaining 'Complete Control' yet. Since most software written by humans at the present is SO buggy and error prone, I'd be more worried about 'Fried Brain Syndrome' from all those downloads than anything else.

Now if MACHINES or COMPUTERS were somehow able to be enlisted or programmed to write error and bug free code for download to the brain, maybe then! But then we have the chicken and egg problem. Someone has to program and build those computers to do this, hence errors or bugs can creep in here as well.

Computers cannot be creators, Descartes proved that, they are machines and therefore cannot think. Thinking otherwise is not only against modern philosophy, it is against modern science, both which Descartes founded.

Anyway, @Foil, yes, we will go from "complete chaos" to Complete Control. Just think it through logically, not in terms of relations of words. Think what logically would happen. You and everyone else will gain complete knowledge. That is a fact and it will eventually happen, as soon as the technology is available and someone advertises it. With tha knowledge of everything in 6 billion plus brains, it only takes one person to hack into the communication network and control everyone. That person need not collaborate with anyone as collaboration will then be replaced by the communication network. He or she will already know exactly what to do based on complete knowledge. Everyone will know what to do.

[Spidey]

As long as it’s me in control, I’m game.

[Aggressor Prime]

That is one vote for Spidey control.
So Spidey, what restrictions will you place upon us?
And who of you trust Spidey to control us?

[Krom]

Star Trek describes the Borg as evil cyborgs bent on universal conquest like it is a bad thing. Before successive encounters with bad writers nerfed the concept, the Borg had something going for them that humanity alone can never have: unity.

The world today would be such a better place if humanity was a single collective intelligence, even if we were bent on absorbing the entire universe. The Borg collective would instantly and completely nullify virtually every evil aspect of humanity.

What do we have to lose? Saying someone has free will because they are successful is a joke, they may be playing the system but that doesn't mean they aren't still a part of it. True free will probably never existed in the first place.

[Spidey]

No you don’t get to vote.

That's one...

[Aggressor Prime]

I'm saying you made the vote Spidey.

As for Krom, that is one vote in support for Complete Control. Although I don't know who he wants to have the power. You have to remember that the borg were not equal. All were controlled by the queen. (BTW, not to get off topic or anything, can anyone find a Hillary Queen Borg picture, that would be sweet.)

As for me, I too support Complete Control (just because I think it is inevitable), but only if the pope has the power. I trust he will allow us to think freely. He never talks about gaining more power, but acts in a most humble manner, IMO.

[Tunnelcat]

Computers cannot be creators, Descartes proved that, they are machines and therefore cannot think. Thinking otherwise is not only against modern philosophy, it is against modern science, both which Descartes founded.

Aren't they starting to get computers to write code now in some circumstances? Humans can create the ideas they want to implement, but the computers can help write the code and check for errors and bugs, which is very time consuming and labor intensive. Lazy or overworked/overtaxed human brains, hence the bugs that creep into most software code.

That's where we humans get into trouble. Software writing is usually NOT taught in school as an engineering discipline, but as a language course within the 'Computer Science' curriculum. So most code writers fall victim to the lack of organization and detail that should be part of the process. Organization takes work and effort to master and most people need to be taught the skill.

Speaking of 'Complete Control', you guys should be reading the latest Star Wars series called 'Legacy of the Force'. It concerns what happens when someone tries to take control of the universe for the sake of peace and it corrupts him thoroughly.

[Aggressor Prime]

Computers cannot be creators, Descartes proved that, they are machines and therefore cannot think. Thinking otherwise is not only against modern philosophy, it is against modern science, both which Descartes founded.

Aren't they starting to get computers to write code now in some circumstances? Humans can create the ideas they want to implement, but the computers can help write the code and check for errors and bugs, which is very time consuming and labor intensive. Lazy or overworked/overtaxed human brains, hence the bugs that creep into most software code.

That's where we humans get into trouble. Software writing is usually NOT taught in school as an engineering discipline, but as a language course within the 'Computer Science' curriculum. So most code writers fall victim to the lack of organization and detail that should be part of the process. Organization takes work and effort to master and most people need to be taught the skill.

They can write code only in so much as they are programmed to. They cannot disobey their programming and therefore are completely predictable. For instance, I can program a computer to write a code for itself so that it performs different tasks based on how much voltage it is getting, but that code is bound to what I program the computer to do and therefore can and must only do what I tell it. It can't think on its own. Now I can tell a computer to nuke the world, and in that case we would all die, but by me, not by the computer. Every action a computer takes is a response to an outside action. A machine cannot have a source of action within itself.

I think the Star Wars movies dealt with that. Anakin only sought power to save his wife, but that ended up destroying her. But the fact remains, someone will gain Complete Control. The question is, who? And who would you rather want to have it. Ignoring the inevitable will not make it go away, it is inevitable.

[Tunnelcat]

I guess humans will always be slaves to their mistakes and mistakes will always cause some failure, hence the inability to control everyone through computers.

[Alter-Fox]

I dimly remember some movie where people were able to connect themselves to computers and download information into their brains. I can't remember what movie it was... each time I try to think of the name I think of Minority Report, but I know that one was different.

However, it wouldn't surprise me to have that actually happen. A lot of real world technology was taken from fiction. Robots were originally from a Czech play... even the cell phone first appeared in Star Trek. (I've sworn to myself I'll never have a cell phone, simply because society is so obsessed with them.)

However, I think if someone's soul was still free, even if their mind and body were controlled by someone else, they'd be able to break the control.

I think there are only three beings who are uncorruptible by complete control: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

[Aggressor Prime]

I guess humans will always be slaves to their mistakes and mistakes will always cause some failure, hence the inability to control everyone through computers.

Mistakes are not guaranteed. If they were to every problem, then everything would be totally illogical, even math itself. It only takes one human out of the 6 billion plus that exist to get it right. Complete Control is inevitable.

@Alter-Fox: Matrix

And as far as breaking from control, I doubt it. Unless if you perform some supernatural event, you won't be able to change the physical world. And as far as supernatural events, I think all of them must come from God, not the human being. We, in communication to the physical world, are bound by our minds/bodies. I think that is what Descartes was getting at when talking about the mind (soul)-body composition rather than the mind (soul) sailing on a ship (body).

[Tunnelcat]

I'm talking about Jacen Solo, aka Darth Caedus, in his quest to rid the galaxy of evil and corruption through rigid control, has in turn become the very thing he is trying to destroy. Chaos and entropy will always rule the universe, control requires organization, the very antitheses of entropy.

[Aggressor Prime]

I'm talking about Jacen Solo, aka Darth Caedus, in his quest to rid the galaxy of evil and corruption through rigid control, has in turn become the very thing he is trying to destroy. Chaos and entropy will always rule the universe, control requires organization, the very antitheses of entropy.

I'm not saying Complete Control will ensure universal order. It will only ensure that people won't be able to interact on the physical plane, just the mental plane if the world leader allows it. If people are not allowed to think, personal disorder will consume people, but physically, there will be Complete Control and therefore perfect order, order that does nothing physically, but still order.

Such order could be considered a good thing since there will be no war, and maybe even no death since it will be much easier to help people's bodies. And if people are allowed to think, they can constructively work on problems that machines do not have the ability to solve due to the problems dealing with things machines cannot understand, namely philosophical (metaphysics) and theological problems. In this way, the world becomes a giant think tank, granted the world leader allows us to think.

Of course, the world leader could always force our brains to add computative capacity to his/her own, leaving our souls unconnected. But I think such action as this would leave the world leader with an incomplete philosophy and theology since I believe everyone has a purpose that cannot be reduplicated and that comes from the soul that aids in the understanding of God, source of Truth that is found in philosophy/theology.

[Alter-Fox]

Of course, if the \"controller\" was really evil, he (or she) might just pit people against each other to simulate war for his (or her) entertainment.

BTW - Aren't our souls the part of us that commune with God? Of course I can't possibly know, but somehow I don't think God would like one person gaining control of everyone. To see why I think this, read the First Testament.

[Aggressor Prime]

Of course, if the "controller" was really evil, he (or she) might just pit people against each other to simulate war for his (or her) entertainment.

Yep, but without them going against the leader with the possiblity of victory. There is guaranteed safety for the world leader in so much as he or she wants to be safe. In this manner Complete Control is maintained. And if he/she in control wants to lose power, someone else will take it.

[Tunnelcat]

I think that the only way that someone could have complete mental control over another would be to get rid of 'free will'. If you get rid of that human trait, then won't we just become organic robots? And if we don't have free will, what happens to creativity, enjoyment of life?

[Foil]

@Foil, yes, we will go from "complete chaos" to Complete Control. Just think it through logically, not in terms of relations of words. Think what logically would happen. You and everyone else will gain complete knowledge. That is a fact and it will eventually happen, as soon as the technology is available and someone advertises it.

The bolded phrase there is where I believe you've gone into "left field".

Yes, humanity's knowledge will continue to grow, but it's fundamentally impossible to obtain "complete knowledge" (using any definition of that term).

Human biological limitations aside, even a little study of Physics (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, for a good example) shows this.

[Aggressor Prime]

@Foil, yes, we will go from "complete chaos" to Complete Control. Just think it through logically, not in terms of relations of words. Think what logically would happen. You and everyone else will gain complete knowledge. That is a fact and it will eventually happen, as soon as the technology is available and someone advertises it.

The bolded phrase there is where I believe you've gone into "left field".

Yes, humanity's knowledge will continue to grow, but it's fundamentally impossible to obtain "complete knowledge" (using any definition of that term).

Human biological limitations aside, even a little study of Physics (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, for a good example) shows this.

I'm sorry, but I mean complete knowledge as knowledge of everything on record. If hackers can do what they do with limited programming knowledge, with all the knowledge people have combined on programming, hacking becomes that much simpler.

@tunnelcat:
That brings up a good philosophical issue. Although we know the mind, the mental state of the brain, can be controlled, I at least believe free will is rooted in the soul, something the physical world cannot control due to my definition of the soul as being something that exists entirely in the spiritual world and merely connects to the physical world due to a connection to the mind.

Under Complete Control in which the world leader controls your mental state completely as well, you will always still be aware of what happens. Of course this awareness will be much different than what you think of today, it will be the root of awareness, what you have when you are unconscious. At least that is how I see the soul still functioning.

[Alter-Fox]

Well, if I hear that I can download information to my brain via computer, I'll just ignore it. I don't like the idea of living without free will (or the illusion of it, as is one accepted theory).

[Aggressor Prime]

Well, if I hear that I can download information to my brain via computer, I'll just ignore it. I don't like the idea of living without free will (or the illusion of it, as is one accepted theory).

While it might be a good idea to avoid it, you will eventually find yourself in great perplexity.
1. Those who do download knowledge into their brains will be much smarter than you and therefore you will be unemployed.
2. By being unemployed, you will become poor.
3. If enough people use the Complete Control learning system, either the nanorobot scenario can take place or the world leader can force people under his/her control to kill you.

Either way, you are in great perplexity.

[Alter-Fox]

For one thing, I would much rather have free will than complete knowledge. Besides, with everyone under control and no creativity left on Earth, science will grind to a halt, and assuming I have enough time, I can discover everything that is known because nothing else will ever be known. Because I'll be one of the only two people with free will left on the planet, I'll be one of the only two people who can discover anything new.

Secondly, if I'm unemployed because the \"controller\" has no interest whatsoever in science, I already know how to find out how to change myself into another species, and then I'll just have to survive the wild, but I'll be much smarter than anything else out there. (And trust me, I would and will do this.)

Thirdly, if I'm killed I'll just go to heaven and have a wonderful, free, immortal life.

(I'm using this post to try out some emoticons I haven't used before. The main point is what is said, though.)

Regarding your second or third point: if no one has free will what's the point of employment anyway? Only one (or two) people will be able to get any value out of a product. And with no creativity, there will be no new products, and the world leader can take what's already there. With complete knowledge, the world leader will be able to cure him (or her) self of any diseases (and so will everyone else), so health care jobs won't exist. Because information will be downloaded directly into the brain, all the education jobs will be gone. There are no jobs left to employ people except food suppliers, so the only people still employed will be grocers and farmers. It seems that most peoples' lives will be pointless under this system.

See if you can figure out what my philosophy has to do with what I just said.

My personal philosophy: \"If you have to kill something, at least do it the courtesy of eating it after.\"

[Aggressor Prime]

For one thing, I would much rather have free will than complete knowledge. Besides, with everyone under control and no creativity left on Earth, science will grind to a halt, and assuming I have enough time, I can discover everything that is known because nothing else will ever be known. Because I'll be one of the only two people with free will left on the planet, I'll be one of the only two people who can discover anything new.

Secondly, if I'm unemployed because the "controller" has no interest whatsoever in science, I already know how to find out how to change myself into another species, and then I'll just have to survive the wild, but I'll be much smarter than anything else out there. (And trust me, I would and will do this.)

Thirdly, if I'm killed I'll just go to heaven and have a wonderful, free, immortal life.

(I'm using this post to try out some emoticons I haven't used before. The main point is what is said, though.)

Regarding your second or third point: if no one has free will what's the point of employment anyway? Only one (or two) people will be able to get any value out of a product. And with no creativity, there will be no new products, and the world leader can take what's already there. With complete knowledge, the world leader will be able to cure him (or her) self of any diseases, so health care jobs won't exist. Because information will be downloaded directly into the brain, all the education jobs will be gone. There are no jobs left to employ people except food suppliers, so the only people still employed will be grocers and farmers. It seems that most peoples' lives will be pointless under this system.

See if you can figure out what my philosophy has to do with what I just said.

My personal philosophy: "If you have to kill something, at least do it the courtesy of eating it after."

You bring up many good points. Although I would like to clarify that the event in which "complete knowledge" becomes available and the event in which Complete Control becomes enforced are two different events and may be separated by a few years so that more people may gain complete knowledge and so that people may overcome their hesitation to take power.

And as far as free will, I'm assuming you believe the mind is the same as the soul and therefore free will can be taken away. I would like to say that I don't believe in this, although I may be wrong. And I don't think Descartes believed in this either. Note that while Descartes may have used the word mind for the Christian understanding of the soul, he saw it exactly as we see it, something that defines human existance. He really saw the brain as the body and therefore the Christian word for mind as the body, therefore that is why he could easily see animals and rocks as the same thing, machines. So back to Complete Control, people will always have free will, at least that is what I believe, but they won't be able to act it out.

Concerning jobs, when we do achieve complete learning, I believe machines will also be much more powerful. Computers will be able to research any science that is strictly science and does not find its root in spiritual matters. Machines will be able to perform all jobs except theology/philosophy exploration. Therefore, all the jobs done by humans will be theology/philosophy exploration. As far as the economic system, it will be very confusing, most likely leading to Complete Control. The problem is those who control the machines who control everything but theology/philosophy control the world, yet not with Complete Control. They can choose to award goods to whoever they wish, despite progress, leading to Communism. This Communism will be hated by the theologians/philosophers who are the only ones that work and therefore these people will attempt to hack the learning system to take control. The leaders will respond with causing the learning system to brainwash the workers so that they prevent any hacks. Then the leaders will get greedy and fight among themselves and anyone who they couldn't brainwash because they disconnected themselves from the learning network for Complete Control.

In the end, one person will have Complete Control and some people might be dead because of it.

I would like to use this argument to move forward in this topic. As I see it, the only way for Complete Control to be enacted in a manner that preserves life is to enact it way before anyone knows the technology is functional and through the nanorobot example in which everyone becomes infected, and while infected, manipulated to not know that they are infected. In this way, everyone can be infected with nanorobots without any knowledge of it, allowing Complete Control to be activated at the flip of a switch in which there will be no resistance and therefore no fatality because of Complete Control. Now this is a scenario that requires a set group of people to have an extremely organized plan for world domination who also happen to be morally correct. In addition to this, the set group of people must have an unwavering loyalty to a single person within the group who has been choosen to be the world leader.

[Alter-Fox]

Computers actually couldn't discover anything unless they were creative and had free will, which you don't believe they ever will. My point was that creativity is needed for any discovery. Without free will creativity doesn't exist, and without creativity there is no discovery.

.: There is no discovery without free will.

And like I already said, there would be no need for employment because there would be no one to use what the jobs create. Oh, okay. ONE person.

[Aggressor Prime]

Computers actually couldn't discover anything unless they were creative and had free will, which you don't believe they ever will. My point was that creativity is needed for any discovery. Without free will creativity doesn't exist, and without creativity there is no discovery.

.: There is no discovery without free will.

And like I already said, there would be no need for employment because there would be no one to use what the jobs create. Oh, okay. ONE person.

Things can discover other things without free will, it just so happens that those discoveries will not be presented to the discover but to the programmer of the computer. This happens everyday when humans use computers to process the cure for cancer. We don't do the calculations, but we tell the calculations to be done and we use the results to some greater good.

We would program computers to explore the foundational principles of the universe through some complex instructions. Computers will continue forever exploring both the smallest things of existence and the things farthest away from earth, compile the results into a physics concept, and present this concept to humans.

[Ford Prefect]

Do you even care?
Do you want the one who has Complete Control to have it for power, or so that someone else doesn't abuse power?
If someone can handle the power of Complete Control, who do you think it is, who do you think is incorruptable by Complete Control?
Or do you think this event will mean the doom of humanity?

Do I care No the premise is silly an anything but \"inevitable\". IMHO it is \"unlikely\"
Who should have \"Complete Control\" That would not even be \"decided\" by anyone it would have to evolve wouldn't it?
The rest of your \"questions\" are just foolish speculation.
At least you gave my quote marks key a good work out. I haven't even bothered to read the thread.

[Aggressor Prime]

And there goes a vote to \"I don't care.\" Thank you Ford Perfect for spending the time to give your opinion.

BTW, here is some recent news on nanorobot related technology, a microboat, although it is still too big.
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=11858

\"Finally, Luo is dreaming big and envision his microboats leading to microsubmarines capable of traversing human blood vessels and carrying tiny cargoes. Says Luo, \"Finally, in the long run the successful development of these microboats should form a foundation for developing micro ‘submarines,’ and further exploring implantable micro ‘submarines,’ which would be capable of traveling in blood vessels for active drug delivery, and disease diagnosis and treatment.\"

[Alter-Fox]

.: is the best I could do for the \"therefore\" symbol.

Agressor, thank you for the respectful discussion.

Now, I think we should agree to disagree, because I obviously can't explain my point well enough. (You're completely misunderstanding.)

I might be able to explain it better in a half hour after I've watched the Demented Cartoon Movie. (I'm advertising that RANDOMLY all over the forums! )

BTW - there's no offense intended in any of my posts, if it came out that way.

[TIGERassault]

Oh man, the entire premise is so horribly flawed It requires that:
1: Despite being intelligent enough for people to want to have it instead of their own biological brain, it's still completely vulnerable to being fully hacked.
2: It would learn by direct download rather than by living the way humans do.
3: It would download things in the form of programs, rather than direct information.
4: Everyone will have a mechanical brain.
5: That humanity won't be already extinct by then. Which is a whole lot more feasable, especially considering that we already have the technology to do that now.

So I'm gonna vote for Roid, on the hope that he does something hilarious!

[Aggressor Prime]

So I'm guessing that means TIGERassault is voting for I don't care because I don't think this will happen.

[Tunnelcat]

Hey guys. There is an example of life on this planet with preprogrammed brains from birth and outside control influences by a main 'Controller\". I'm talking about ants, termites and bees which are born with all the code their brains need for all duties concerning survival and reproduction AND they follow all group commands through chemical messengers from the Queen and even sub-commands from each other in this way.

However, they don't really have 'free will' and are at the mercy of natural forces. I don't think that the group would function as efficiently with free will. Free will and social cooperation don't always work together, just look at humans. That said, I don't think trying to control humans as a group from a single 'Controller' would be a very pleasant or even possible state to embrace. I'm betting most people would probably fight the idea, even if it promised a safe and comfortable life.

[Duper]

Tunnelcat. Ever read \"A Wrinkle in Time\"?

(if not, I'll expound)

[TIGERassault]

So I'm guessing that means TIGERassault is voting for I don't care because I don't think this will happen.

Hey, I said I vote for Roid! I think he's just the kinda guy that'll turn out to be an absolute genius and advance modern technology by centuries worth!

[Ford Prefect]

A-P: Sorry for the excessively grumpy response. I do think that the human mind is too complex to be open to control by any technology, existing or on the horizon. Saying it is inevitable is like the predictions from the '50s that we would all be driving atomic powered helicopters in the 21st century. We just don't know enough about the mind or the technology to make such statements.