IF it's out of pub and the source code is released ...

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:06 pm

IF it's out of pub and the source code is released into the public domain, is it ok to offer the cd files for download? for free?

Tell me what you think!

KoolBear

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:22 pm

I vote yes because once the source code is available, any tom, dick & harry can molest the code as they see fit and IMO, any game with that many security risks should be free

Seriously though, once the source is officially released I feel the game becomes public domain and the people who played that game or are interested in playing that game are entitled to do so free of charge. Most games aren't profitable once their source code is released anyways

(Does not include source leaks etc...etc..)

oh, and btw welcome back KB, didn't get a chance to post in Jim's "Please Welcome" thread

Grendel · Post by **Grendel** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:28 pm

I voted "Sounds Good" because it just does sound good

but is usually unrealistic in the real world. I'd bet that Interplay wouldn't want the game files released as long they sell D3..

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:54 pm

I voted no since the only thing that is free is the source code not the other files.

Those files also have copyrights on them and most of them belong to the publisher.

Nirvana · Post by **Nirvana** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:06 pm

Source code won't do anything without the resources (or simply won't be the same game, unless someone spends hundreds of meticulous hours duplicating everything).

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:47 pm

I would have to say it all depends on who released the code.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:57 pm

Doesn't matter who releases it; it's illegal to redistribute anything but the source code unless full permission is granted otherwise.

Whether or not they go after you is another story.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:02 pm

I vote yes because once it's public, it's public. Know what I mean?

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:23 pm

It should only be illegal to redistribute for profit IMO, but thats another topic in and of itself.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:26 pm

Thanks Ty,

Whow now who said anything about Descent

Nirvana · Post by **Nirvana** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:29 pm

Dedman wrote:I vote yes because once it's public, it's public. Know what I mean?

That's the point though. It ISN'T public. Source code and resources are not the same thing. Furthermore, I would venture to guess that if the law considered it the same thing, we wouldn't have half the people that release source code today doing so.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:40 pm

DCrazy wrote:Doesn't matter who releases it; it's illegal to redistribute anything but the source code unless full permission is granted otherwise.
.

Well if the legal owner releases it, then it is O.K. to use it. Much like Linux I suppose.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:44 pm

This is why I love Nirvana, he's always here to cut-to-the-point.

I wonder what a comapny like Interplay would loose if people offered the game for download, think about it, while they might frown on it I doubt they would worry, it seems to me to have a game stay around just keeps providing them with free advertising.

I plan on following this POLL, drag others in here.

Maybe I can use it as ammo when and if I decide to pursue this with Interplay.

Just think it might actually spark sales of D3 IF people can get hooked on Descent or D2 for no investment. It might even show them when they need to continue to invest in a Descent type game genre!

Sorry started out as two cents and flowed over into spittle

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 8:08 pm

I picked the third option. While I highly doubt that it will actually happen, I am of the opinion that any game that is not actively sold by its publisher should be available for free, without any legal repercussions. I am of this opinion even if the source code has not been released. There are many fantastic games that are no longer sold (our own D1 and D2 for example). I think that everyone should have the opportunity to procure and play these games without having to resort to something like eBay. Let's face it: if a game is no longer sold, it has been "abandoned" by its producer, and I feel that it should be considered "abandonware." I think this is only fair to the gaming community at large; these games were made to be played, and if they're out of publication, it's only right that they should be able to be passed around for free.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:06 pm

I agree with Top Gun.

roid · Post by **roid** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:18 pm

me too also agree

the publishers owe it to the developers to make their game available to everyone. by any means possible.

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:43 am

The reason a company would release the source code is not for users to start playing the game for free, without buying it. The reason is the company no longer does any source maintenance itself, and estimates the public can do so in it's place, if anything.

If a company releases the full binaries to a game, then I would take the textures, music and sounds for granted. The purpose of the binaries are to play the game. If they only release the source code, they are not releasing the game itself nor giving an invitation to play it for free, they are merely giving people an opportunity to learn from it or modify it. You still have to pay for the game if you want to use the source code, much like everybody who wants to use the new, modified binary, needs the original game content to do anything with it.

I voted no.

Topher · Post by **Topher** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:54 am

Considering the Descent 2 music files are up on Interplay's site for download, it may not be too big a jump to ask for permission to offer the whole game (minus cut scenes probably) for free.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:27 am

maybe we can get mveextract aswell, providing they aren't using the MVE format anymore of course...

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:41 am

Nirvana wrote:
Dedman wrote:I vote yes because once it's public, it's public. Know what I mean?
That's the point though. It ISN'T public.

That was the premise behind the question. If indeed it is NOT public then that is a different matter.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:04 am

Fern, after D3 Interplay switched to the Bink format.

Not surprising, given the complicated mess that is the MVE format. Somone disassembled Baldur's Gate and pieced together the MVE file format. The player relies on self-modifying code to work.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:38 pm

Tri, that was my point in the beginning though. I'm already assuming that those interested in the source code (Let us use Descent for example) are either...

A ) Already familiar with the game and have the ability to play it and want to modify the code purely for posetive purposes.

B ) Already familiar with the game and have the ability to play it and want to modify the code purely for harmful purposes.

Ok, now, getting back to my point. We can't assume that there will be plenty of the "A" variety because lets face it, there are more people out there who would like to ruin everyone else's day for the sake of their own entertainement.

Without the original developers ability to prevent such security vulnerabilities (reason for not releasing the source code when a game is new), I contend that the game should be free. I've already mentioned that when a games source is officially released it is usually when the game is no longer making a profit.

Just because the other files required to make the game run aren't included in releasing the source doesn't mean those procuring the code don't already have the files needed to run the game.

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:58 pm

I think I will approach Interplay with the intention of working out the detail, if they are not publishing Descent or Descent 2 anymore nor are they planning on supporting it. Then they should opt at the chance to see a game they could readdress stay alive in some shape or form at absolutly NO COST to them.

IN the process hopefully by making the "unsupported" avalible for download we might be able to bring more new players into Descent.

Unless they ARE supporting oversea sales then it could pose a problem!

KB

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:32 pm

Top Gun wrote:I picked the third option. While I highly doubt that it will actually happen, I am of the opinion that any game that is not actively sold by its publisher should be available for free, without any legal repercussions.

It works except in one key situation - one never knows when the code might be needed in the future. Take Nintendo for example and count the incarnations of Super Mario Brothers. A game designed almost 20 years ago is still routinely re-released (they are setting up to do it yet again). Had they given away the source code 15 years ago, when the game had run its initial course, would it have been so lucrative today?

Another point is that - as Nirvana pointed out, source code != resources. This is where things get messy. The source code is no doubt the property of the company involved with the game. But, the extraneous work of maps, music, voice acting, and movies are in a murky gray scenario. Do the actors get royalties? It's all part of the contract negotiations.

In my heart, I think it's the right thing to do when a company releases "abandonware" source code for public consumption. Then, a bunch of fans can go and take the game to the next level - such as what has happened for Doom and FreeSpace 2.

Nirvana · Post by **Nirvana** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:05 pm

I do agree that if the game is literally GONE, the company should make the resources free (well, the ones that they even can by law). I think some of you miss the point though: I don't think the source code gets released so that everyone can have the game.... I think it get released so that people can learn for it, and sometimes, like sol said, so that the game can live on for those that still love it. Grant it, I would have no personal problem with giving someone the resources so that they could play the game (if there was literally no other way they could play it), but that doesn't make it legal. Furthermore, even though the source has been released, I am quite sure that there would be notices along with it stating that it's still the property of whoever wrote it - if someone made a game based on a set of released source, they are still going to have to buy the rights to it (ie, you can't just take the quake source, modify if a bit, and then release it and sell it - someone correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I believe that of the reasons they GIVE the source out and not the resources is so that you can't play the game without buying it... but yeah.. heh

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 3:39 pm

Oh Nirvy, when didest thou get all righteous on us

My point isn't ti beg borry or steal. But to do whatever I can to keep it alive.

I will draft an e-mail in th ecomming weeks. I'll ask for input to make sure I present the best case senerio to Interplay, and see what comes of it.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:46 pm

Interplay won't do sh*t without $$$$$$$$.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 5:53 pm

I haven't had a chance to read this thread in its entirity, so please excuse this post if it sounds a little redundant.

If the source code for a game is released, and isn't currently being sold actively (meaning either on store shelves or online) then I think the game should be freely available (even if its nothing but the game data itself and not the music). What's the point of keeping the game to yourself if you aren't making money off of it? Hell, if you're not going to release it for free, atleast be smart about it and sell it at a reduced price so people would still be able to play the game while they tweak the source code.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:34 pm

One example some of you objectors might want to consider would be Freespace 2. Until a short time ago, the full version of this awesome game was unavailable, except for ridiculously high prices on eBay or the generosity of a friend. (Now, it's available from slightly less ridiculously high prices direct from Interplay

.) Do games like this deserve to be lost to future gamers? I certainly don't think so. Also keep in mind the free copy of Freespace 2 that you could download from The Underdogs website. True, it didn't have the excellent voice, music, or cutscene files, but at least it was there. Wouldn't you like to see other abandoned games treated in a similar fashion?

Note that I am aware that The Underdogs had permission to release the game in that manner. I also believe that the source code had been released prior to it being available. I wish that more manufacturers would follow this example and allow older games to be made available once more to the public, even if for a nominal fee. Look at the popularity of emulators for systems such as NES, Atari, or SEGA Genesis. I'm sure many of you have played such ROMs, and while they may be of questionable legality if you don't own the game already, at least they're keeping some of the classics alive.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:22 am

Actually, with the case of the Freespace series, permission is given in the EULA.

Nirvana · Post by **Nirvana** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:15 am

KoolBear wrote:Oh Nirvy, when didest thou get all righteous on us

"Grant it, I would have no personal problem with giving someone the resources so that they could play the game (if there was literally no other way they could play it)"

I didn't, you just asked about the legality. Rape the CEO's baby for all I care :O

KoolBear · Post by **KoolBear** » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:26 pm

LOL there the Nirv I've grown to respect!

I definately don't desire to screw anyone. I desire to drag more players to the game by any means possible!

I wonder what Interplay could get out of me if I chose to offer D1 and D2 for downloads.

I guess they could sue me. But all I have is the clothes on my back a car and a tv, and in Texas they can't take any of those away from me, They can have the pot I piss in if they like

Let's face it, either D1 or D2 isn't supported anymore and the support/upgrades that either game has received has been by the COMMUNITY, like the DBB it doesn't belong to just one person it belongs to the COMMUNITY at least that was our vision when we started it. Sure the DBB is different someone pays to keep it going, but that's from the love of the game that people like the current admin shares with it's founders. And Descent is an old dog sent to pasture because the monies have already been made!

If I thought I could drag one or two pilots a week into Descent then I would be willing to do it. Without some influx of new pilots then MY FAVORITE passtime will become just that a pastime.

Now the thing is to develope an angle that Interplay CAN'T refuse.

Suggestions... Ideas anyone ?

KB

Naithin · Post by **Naithin** » Sat May 29, 2004 10:49 pm

I doubt it muchly that Interplay will ever officially allow the download of their old products. Frankly, I'll be surprised if anyone even bothers respond to you.

However, all that said, I would love to see these for download again. I don't really think that the release of the source code then follows that the whole game is public domain though. (Although the quake community seems to think so, and thus far, has got away with it. eQuake is a complete, freely downloadable quake package)

Main reason I would love to see these freely downloadable though, is that I am actually a ligit owner of the Descent series (descent 1-3 anyway, I never checked out the freespace line, didn't seem my thing at the time)

But my disks for Descent 1, and the CD's of D2 and 3 have long been faulty (in the case of D1) and lost (for all of 'em now), and I've for the longest time had a pining to play again.

I used to play waay back in the dos kahn days, my nick back then was usually Belgarion or Jono. Anywho.. Yeah.. I think it'd be a great thing to have these for download again.

Not nessacerially legal, but I don't think Interplay is really in much position to do anything about it right now, whether they wanted to or not.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sun May 30, 2004 3:21 am

Rule of thumb....thread necromancy is bad. It happens sometimes though.

IF it's out of pub and the source code is released ...

If the source code is made public, is it ok to offer the cd files also?

IF it's out of pub and the source code is released ...