Presenting: The Obamamobile!

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Wed May 20, 2009 2:58 pm

Your next ride- guaranteed to be Obama-certified and Obama-friendly!

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Wed May 20, 2009 4:27 pm

A right hand drive car?

TheCope · Post by **TheCope** » Wed May 20, 2009 5:12 pm

A douchebag who has no original thought that copies and pastes pictures (and text) he finds on other messageboards?

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Wed May 20, 2009 5:37 pm

I agree, something needs to be done about those dems.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed May 20, 2009 6:14 pm

TB, can you do us all a favor and keep your circle jerk chain-mail out of the Cafe?

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Wed May 20, 2009 6:34 pm

I've told him that many times DC, but he only listens when he's talking.

/ban

Nightshade · Post by **Nightshade** » Wed May 20, 2009 9:04 pm

Only mad 'cause it's true aren't ya?

TigerRaptor · Post by **TigerRaptor** » Thu May 21, 2009 12:34 am

Ever since he lost his pink fuzzy bunny slippers and his childhood bunny blow up doll popped. TB just hasn't been the same.

DarkHorse · Post by **DarkHorse** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:32 am

I thought Joe the Plumber had bailed on the GOP.

ccb056 · Post by **ccb056** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:08 am

Someone got a bailout?

Octopus · Post by **Octopus** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:10 am

On a different note, it looks like battery powered cars will be what replaces gas powered cars. It’s not less fuel efficient or green because power plants will have to burn more coal to support the demand. But this is good since we could replace coal burning plants easier than every gas station and car to a different fuel, every time we find a new way to make energy. Your thoughts?

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:11 am

Octopus wrote: But this is good since we could replace coal burning plants easier than every gas station and car to a different fuel, every time we find a new way to make energy. Your thoughts?

can you tell me where to find the nucwear wessles

Octopus · Post by **Octopus** » Thu May 21, 2009 10:52 am

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:02 am

Octopus wrote:But this is good since we could replace coal burning plants easier than every gas station and car to a different fuel, every time we find a new way to make energy. Your thoughts?

1) Isn't moving to all electric exactly that? (Changing every gas station and car to a different fuel?)
2) We can't make energy, we can only find better ways of gathering it.
3) IMO Electric as it currently stands is not the solution, although continued development is the only way to reach a real solution.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:48 am

So how will I be able to haul 20 sheets of plywood and tow a 20 foot cargo trailer with the new Govt. Motors mandated electric whiz bang car of the future? I can now understand how abortion on demand will be useful as the new transport of the future will be lucky to fit 2 people let alone a family of four.

Octopus · Post by **Octopus** » Thu May 21, 2009 12:23 pm

Krom wrote: 1) Isn't moving to all electric exactly that? (Changing every gas station and car to a different fuel?)

Gas stations will stop selling fuel as more people start buying electric cars. I see a smooth transition.

Krom wrote:2) We can't make energy, we can only find better ways of gathering it.

Yes.

Krom wrote:3) IMO Electric as it currently stands is not the solution, although continued development is the only way to reach a real solution.

And I think it’s easier to upgrade power plants once everyone is fueling from the grid.

If a power company switched how they “gathered power”, it wouldn’t have any effect on how you use your computer (unless it costs a whole lot more). The power company can do all kinds of advancements to reduce cost and/or make their production more “green” and our computers wouldn’t know the difference! Another words, we’ll be able to change what we’re burning for energy when we’re ready to make that massive change. Right now gas stations will only carry special types of gas as per the demand. That’s too slow and too hard a change. Why have 4 or 5 different types of gas for sale at each gas station everywhere. That’s nuts! Let the electric companies work with all the different things to burn, while we use one type of power that will never change.

woodchip wrote:So how will I be able to haul 20 sheets of plywood and tow a 20 foot cargo trailer with the new Govt. Motors mandated electric whiz bang car of the future? I can now understand how abortion on demand will be useful as the new transport of the future will be lucky to fit 2 people let alone a family of four.

the Peter Builts and Freightliners of the world will still fuel the same until the electric engine gets really good.

edit:
Why would this not work? If you know why please tell!

Burlyman · Post by **Burlyman** » Thu May 21, 2009 2:28 pm

If people started using electric cars, people who work at oil companies would lose their jobs. I see a rough transition. =P

Octopus · Post by **Octopus** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:08 pm

Burlyman wrote:If people started using electric cars, people who work at oil companies would lose their jobs. I see a rough transition. =P

We don't know what the first ten years would be like.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:23 pm

Electric cars are fine for commuting and short trips, but they have their limits.

What about Freight trucks? No electric engine would be able to move that kind of mass.

Trains? Jets? Commercial lawn care equipment?

It's one piece of the puzzle but it's certainly not the end-all.

Remember that batteries have a life; a much shorter one than fuel engines. Most are made of very toxic materials. What about reclaim? Right now, \"they\" are having major issues in this area alone trying to figure out what to do with all the recycled old TV sets. What are we going to do with thousands and thousands of car batteries in like 30 years?

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu May 21, 2009 6:48 pm

General Electric will be really upset to know that the electric freight engines they've been building for the past 10 years shouldn't exist...

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Thu May 21, 2009 7:03 pm

Electric motors can't move freight you say? Too much mass eh? Motors are too wimpy?

Perhaps you should read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_loc ... l-electric

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu May 21, 2009 8:33 pm

Diesel-electric motors still require a diesel fuel to drive the electric generator. For the time being that diesel is still derived from petroleum. AFAIK biodiesel hasn't yet proven itself cost competitive without significant subsidy.

I see a rocky transition. There is no infrastrucure for refueling fleets of electric cars. If you live far from work, you may have to recharge while you're there - may have to change where you live so you're in range of your workplace. What about the long-haul trucking industry - better get used to less stuff at the supermarket. Aviation fuel (from petroleum) comes in handy too, from time to time.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:00 pm

I happen to know a little bit about electric motors, and the fact is…they can produce the kind of torque internal combustion engines can only dream about.

Anyway with that said, electric cars are only good for abating point source pollution, and actually use much more energy because of all kinds of losses…conversion…transmission…manufacturing…etc. And if you don’t already know the inefficiencies of electric vehicles…you have no right advocating their use.

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Thu May 21, 2009 9:42 pm

hey, there's always this
(click on the enclosed video)

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:24 pm

Actually, the use of electric cars that use electricity generated by power plants running on gas would yield a higher efficiency right now. Instead of trying to create a highly efficient automobile engine, transmission, etc.,. it would be simpler to refine a power plant to be more efficient and the costs would be distributed amongst the masses as opposed to much higher priced vehicles.

Add to that the fact that we also have hydroelectric power plants, solar energy, hydrothermal plants, nuclear plants, wind energy, natural gas power plants, etc.,. it would seem that our sources for electricity to power our electric vehicles is quite vast.

Implementing such a thing need not be a rocky road. Cars such as the Tesla can plug right into your house to charge, and the charge times continually improve as battery technology does. Eventually charge times could be sufficiently reduced to enable real time \"fueling\" of electric cars at fuel stations. This would provide more income for the station owner as electric vehicles have to go somewhere to fuel up.

But the moral of the story is the desire to change. Most people I talk to about electrics believe they're underpowered, weak, don't have enough range and what's the point since at the other end is a power plant burning fossil fuels. Few have actually taken the time to understand the problem and how much things have changed in the last decades.

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Thu May 21, 2009 11:25 pm

Spidey wrote:I happen to know a little bit about electric motors, and the fact is…they can produce the kind of torque internal combustion engines can only dream about.

Anyway with that said, electric cars are only good for abating point source pollution, and actually use much more energy because of all kinds of losses…conversion…transmission…manufacturing…etc. And if you don’t already know the inefficiencies of electric vehicles…you have no right advocating their use.

http://jagadees.wordpress.com/2007/10/2 ... fficiency/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php

I'd say this pretty much sums up the efficiency differences.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:46 am

ThunderBunny wrote:Only mad 'cause it's true aren't ya?

Only thing that is true is the fact you love to post stuff you read without showing the source or even the capacity to show anything resembling an individual thought.

On to the power plant thing. Per unit of energy produced, they are one of the most efficient methods of converting energy. most of the loss happens after the electricity is generated, through transformers, transmission lines, and all the way down to your place. I believe it's more than a 50% loss from point of origin to your receptacle. The power grid is based on a design that is almost a century old now after all.

Spidey: the torque produced by an electric motor varies with RPM. at stall or near stall rpm, the produced torque is at it's maximum. As the RPM rises, the torque drops in almost a linear fashion. Also, the higher the voltage is on a given load, the more efficient the motor and related hardware becomes. That's why you can get more power out of the motor using smaller AWG wires when you increase the voltage.

Insurrectionist · Post by **Insurrectionist** » Fri May 22, 2009 3:17 am

Well what about the development of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles that is still going strong? Exhausting only heat and water vapor.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:24 am

I’m sorry SS, but you are making the exact mistake I was referring to.

Those efficiency numbers are used after the power is generated/converted and already in the car…it does not take into consideration the efficiency of making the power in the first place, and getting it to the car…etc.

Do you know how much loss is in just the transformers used to convert to high voltage and then back to low voltage? Then more loss converting to even lower DC? Then there is the transmission loss over the conductors…etc. (high tension loss)

Then there is the cost in energy to make the batteries…

The list goes on and on.

As a rule of thumb it is most efficient to turn energy into motion with the least conversion steps…and the electric car breaks that rule…and then some.

Understand…I’m looking at the total picture…and you are just looking at the car.

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Fri May 22, 2009 8:45 am

Spidey wrote:I’m sorry SS, but you are making the exact mistake I was referring to.

Those efficiency numbers are used after the power is generated/converted and already in the car…it does not take into consideration the efficiency of making the power in the first place, and getting it to the car…etc.

Do you know how much loss is in just the transformers used to convert to high voltage and then back to low voltage? Then more loss converting to even lower DC? Then there is the transmission loss over the conductors…etc. (high tension loss)

Then there is the cost in energy to make the batteries…

The list goes on and on.

As a rule of thumb it is most efficient to turn energy into motion with the least conversion steps…and the electric car breaks that rule…and then some.

Understand…I’m looking at the total picture…and you are just looking at the car.

One of the links I posted from Tesla's site shows the total picture. And I was referring to this particular statement by you...

Spidey wrote:And if you don’t already know the inefficiencies of electric vehicles…

The efficiencies of electric vehicles are quite high and while the total losses from plant to vehicle are much lower than that of the car itself, they remain better than non-electric vehicles.
http://www.electroauto.com/info/pollmyth.shtml

dissent · Post by **dissent** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:02 am

SuperSheep wrote:http://jagadees.wordpress.com/2007/10/2 ... fficiency/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
http://www.teslamotors.com/efficiency/well_to_wheel.php

I'd say this pretty much sums up the efficiency differences.

50-100K+ dollars

for entry, and the "cheap" ones aren't available til 2012? Thanks, sounds interesting, but I'll let someone else test their stamina on the bleeding edge. Show me cost of ownership and operational details over several years time as favorable and then I can be impressed. If manufacturers claims hold up, there may be something here, but talk, as they say, is cheap.

Octopus · Post by **Octopus** » Fri May 22, 2009 9:16 am

Personally I don't think cars are the answer to our transportation issue in the future. What we really need is an easy to build network that will allow people to commute from one place in the country to another at the push of a button. And we could use technology that already exists that’s already “proven”.

Remember what the internet did for information? I want the same for logistics and transpiration.

Duper · Post by **Duper** » Fri May 22, 2009 12:55 pm

Octopus wrote:Personally I don't think cars are the answer to our transportation issue in the future. What we really need is an easy to build network that will allow people to commute from one place in the country to another at the push of a button. And we could use technology that already exists that’s already “proven”.

Remember what the internet did for information? I want the same for logistics and transpiration.

Yes, it's called "Am-Trak" and "Gray Hound". both are struggling to stay afloat. Mass transit is inconvenient. You sound like you're talking about teleportation. .. that's hardly proven.

Kilarin · Post by **Kilarin** » Fri May 22, 2009 1:54 pm

Octopus wrote:What we really need is an easy to build network that will allow people to commute from one place in the country to another at the push of a button.

Your from TEXAS, Octopus! Public Transportation works in the east, where they build everything close together. It has severe problems as you move west. We build everything all spread out. It makes public transportation of very limited usefulness.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Fri May 22, 2009 4:48 pm

Sorry SS, I’m not buying it, and if all you have to prove your point is internet & electric car industry propaganda, you’re not going to make points with me.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sat May 23, 2009 7:31 pm

Spidey wrote:Sorry SS, I’m not buying it, and if all you have to prove your point is internet & electric car industry propaganda, you’re not going to make points with me.

exactly what do you find hard to believe?

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Sat May 23, 2009 8:49 pm

I find it hard to believe you still ask me dumb questions.

SuperSheep · Post by **SuperSheep** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:36 pm

Well there are plenty of studies out there, and all of them that I found show electrics in front of standard gas powered automobiles from well to wheel.

What I am saying is that with any petroleum powered automobile, you are limited in terms of efficiency and pollution. You do not have any alternatives. The car is stuck with that brand of fuel.

With electrics, we can generate the electricity in a variety of different ways, some of which are green. I do not believe that the focus should be on whether or not electrics are the way to go. The focus should be on how to produce electricity as efficiently and as green as possible.

And I will say right now that electrics are \"the future\" so the sooner we all get on board and start demanding them, the better. I can not imagine a future that involves us using fuel as we do now. The earth only has so much to give.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Sat May 23, 2009 9:49 pm

We'll probably end up with one or both of two types of energy conversion for moving our vehicles. One will most certainly be chemical in the form of batteries providing electrical work. The other will probably be the hydrogen fuel cell, which also requires electricity to make hydrogen. Do you see a pattern here? We're going to become far more dependent on electricity in the future if we want to get around without using horses when crude oil eventually runs out. Since batteries are not very efficient at energy storage with our present technology, we may see a change in the way cities are built and clustered in order to accommodate short travel.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Sun May 24, 2009 3:01 am

Spidey wrote:I find it hard to believe you still ask me dumb questions.

Excuse me?

I asked you a perfectly valid question and this is how you respond?

If you're so smart as you claim you are, let's see you back your case up like SS did, because I have reason to believe that you're the one parroting "internet propaganda" as you so succinctly put it.

Before you post something like 're-read the thread', i'll put a stop to that right now. what you posted was simply not good enough.

so quit with the 'i'm smarter than you' act. it's insulting.

Presenting: The Obamamobile!

Presenting: The Obamamobile!

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re:

Re: