Racist or what?

[Insurrectionist]

Is this guy a racist? I would have to say he has crossed the line a number of times.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33479833/ns ... ?GT1=43001

Brings up a question should an employee speak only english around you if you are the boss?

The name change is over the line for sure. IMHO If you own a company and want empolyees to speak english then hire english speaking empolyees only.

[Spidey]

OMG…did he tie somebody up and whip them with chains…

1. Did he make them change their names legally? If no, then so what.
2. You can’t hire just English speaking employees, it’s against the law.
3. If you are speaking in front of an English only speaking person, and you don’t want to be considered ignorant, then yes, you should speak English, especially if it’s your employer, and he asked you to do so.

Don’t like the job…see ya later…

[Insurrectionist]

OMG…did he tie somebody up and whip them with chains…
2. You can’t hire just English speaking employees, it’s against the law.

No it's against the law to Discriminate because of
Age
Disability
National Origin
Pregnancy
Race/Color
Religion
Sex

I do believe the law says that a person to legally become a citizen of the US the person must also have a working knowledge of the English language.

If I'm wrong show me the law that says you can't hire only English speaking people.

[Spidey]

Well here in Phlly, you must hire first come first serve, based on qualifications…so I guess you would have to prove a person is unqualified if they speak 2 or more languages.

[SilverFJ]

I demand of my employees in Alaska at least a small working knowledge of English before I set them to specific tasks. If someone is calling for help, I need to understand what's going on and how I can fix the situation immediately. There's far too much of the boss' money at stake to risk miscommunication.

If I go to work in Russia I'll learn Russian.

...as for changing their names, that's ridiculous. I'll call my Russian employees by their equivalent American names, (i.e. Sachieya = Alex) but I ask them if it's okay to first. It's just that I have 150 employees at any given time and it's hard to get everyone's name. I assign crazy 80's nicknames to my few American kids, but that's just to have a good time.

If I had anything to say about this particular incident, I would say, \"I'm going to give you instructions in English, and if you don't understand them and make mistakes, tough ★■◆●, you're fired.\"

[Spidey]

I doubt if this guy is asking his employees to “actually” change their names. Before I started my business I worked for a guy who called me “govna” and all his customers called me that as well, because they never heard my real name…oh well, what was I going to do, cry?

If they want to call you “Employee # 1” thru “Employee # whatever“…oh well, no different than a title.

[Ferno]

Working in the hotel industry for a while opened my eyes up to just how important communication is.

If I can't understand if there's a problem in a room, like someone vomited all over the carpet or one of the beds has been destroyed, I can't tell maintenance that there is a problem or issue that needs to be addressed.

and if i don't know a room has a problem and I rent it out thinking it's okay, I get an angry guest.


like FJ said, if I give housekeeping instructions in english and they don't understand, I have no choice but to start looking for a new employee. because they won't be able to understand the job I am trying to give to them.

so yeah.. this guy was really pushing the boundaries but I don't see anything racist in what he did.

[Spidey]

And, it would be great if that were the issue.

[Ferno]

thing is spidey, people call racism so much they see it in areas that it really doesn't exist.

[Insurrectionist]

Well here in Phlly, you must hire first come first serve, based on qualifications…so I guess you would have to prove a person is unqualified if they speak 2 or more languages.

So where does that leave affirmative action where you have policies that take race, ethnicity, or sex into consideration in an attempt to promote equal opportunity or increase ethnic or other forms of diversity.

So can you really hire or promote based on qualifications?

Funny thing is there are a lot of people from different races that speak only English.

So if some one comes in to an interview and needs a another person to translate your questions then translate their answers do you think you would hire that person?

[snoopy]

So if some one comes in to an interview and needs a another person to translate your questions then translate their answers do you think you would hire that person?

It all depends on the position.

Remember how are all love to complain about the poor-english-speaking technical support that a lot of companies have? (at least I like complaining about them) The ability to speak a certain language certainly qualifies as an aspect of qualification when it comes at really any job that deals with customer service. (And, to a lesser extent any job when it comes to communicating instructions.) If you were to try to apply affirmative action to language, and take it to the literal extreme, you'd end up with non English speakers as your English professor.

[Spidey]

So where does that leave affirmative action where you have policies that take race, ethnicity, or sex into consideration in an attempt to promote equal opportunity or increase ethnic or other forms of diversity.

In many cases, it’s in direct conflict with it. Ironical huh.

[BUBBALOU]

So where does that leave affirmative action where you have policies that take race, ethnicity, or sex into consideration in an attempt to promote equal opportunity or increase ethnic or other forms of diversity.

You need to read a little further than the first section of Wikipedia when trying to counter a statement, especially since your quoting their content!


Here is a twist

Just hire Veterans regardless of their race, ethnicity, or sex... and maintain "Affirmative action" Compliance. at least you know they will follow directions and they can speak english.... No state can counter that.....

[Ferno]

If you were to try to apply affirmative action to language, and take it to the literal extreme, you'd end up with non English speakers as your English professor.

which would be absolutely horrible because you wouldn't be able to learn a thing.

[Insurrectionist]

So where does that leave affirmative action where you have policies that take race, ethnicity, or sex into consideration in an attempt to promote equal opportunity or increase ethnic or other forms of diversity.

You need to read a little further than the first section of Wikipedia when trying to counter a statement, especially since your quoting their content!


Here is a twist

Just hire Veterans regardless of their race, ethnicity, or sex... and maintain "Affirmative action" Compliance. at least you know they will follow directions and they can speak english.... No state can counter that.....

Point is you can't just hire or promote a person based on qualifications due to affirmative action.

Oh by the way all these words are in the enlish dictionary should I quote webster for all these words?

[Spaceboy]

We are an English speaking country. If you feel unwelcome because you speak a different language then go back to your country! Communication is always important.

You can technically discriminate against people who don't speak a certain language, but it really doesn't count or matter because language is something you can just learn.

I don't know physics, but they wont let me be a rocket scientist! It's discrimination!

Call the Waaaaambulance.

[Dedman]

or what.

[woodchip]

I go with the safety issue approach.

[Will Robinson]

communication can be important

[TechPro]

communication can be important

Nice

[Spidey]

I am zinkin, we are zunk…

LOL









And of course the irony here is….how many people didn’t read the OP…

[Lothar]

if I give housekeeping instructions in english and they don't understand, I have no choice but to start looking for a new employee.

If you're going to purchase a hotel, you should consider the language the current employees and the community (ie, your potential employee pool) speaks. If you don't speak it, maybe you're the one who needs to learn.

That said, I don't see anything explicitly racist about this guy's policies. Stupid, maybe, or misguided, but not racist.

[Ferno]

If you're going to purchase a hotel, you should consider the language the current employees and the community (ie, your potential employee pool) speaks. If you don't speak it, maybe you're the one who needs to learn.

That said, I don't see anything explicitly racist about this guy's policies. Stupid, maybe, or misguided, but not racist.

I'm pretty sure he's already thought of that.

that's the thing with buying an already existing business. you don't HAVE to keep the existing staff onboard.

[Lothar]

you don't HAVE to keep the existing staff onboard.

You can't pick up and move the hotel. You're going to get employees from the city where the hotel is based (whether you keep the same ones or not), and if it's a predominantly spanish-speaking area, you should probably learn the language at least a little bit to be able to interact with your customers.

[SilverFJ]

If it's anywhere in America, it should be an English-speaking establishment.

There's more than an imaginary line that seperates nations.

[Spidey]

...and if it's a predominantly spanish-speaking area, you should probably learn the language at least a little bit to be able to interact with your customers.

Wrong.

I have a business in an area that is changing over to a “Spanish speaking area” should I learn to speak Spanish?

Maybe, I should just leave…like the other white flight…

This is the perfect example of why people say we should make English the national language…and I’m starting to see the wisdom.

[Ferno]

you don't HAVE to keep the existing staff onboard.

You can't pick up and move the hotel. You're going to get employees from the city where the hotel is based (whether you keep the same ones or not), and if it's a predominantly spanish-speaking area, you should probably learn the language at least a little bit to be able to interact with your customers.

so you're telling me, that in a predominately english speaking country, where almost all business is conducted in english.. that I have to learn a different language... just to satisfy a few people?

dude that's the most ridiculous thing i've heard in my entire life.


If you want to accommodate the employees however you want, that's your business. Mine is to treat them fairly, pay them a competitive wage and in return, expect them to perform the job as stated. and if I require they speak english, then they must abide. otherwise they can find employment elsewhere.

[Lothar]

I have a business in an area that is changing over to a “Spanish speaking area” should I learn to speak Spanish?

Only if you want your business to be successful.

Why is this a hard concept?

[Ferno]

how does learning a new language translate to being successful?

[Lothar]

how does learning a new language translate to being successful?

If it's the language spoken by your customer base or employee base, it would be useful to speak it. It means you can interact more effectively with customers and employees, and both of those things translate into success.

That's true even regardless of the language. Spanish, Ebonics, Javascript, whatever... if you don't understand it and your employees or customers use it a lot, learning it would be useful. It's up to you to decide if it's worth the hassle.

[Spidey]

Why is this a hard concept?

Yea, maybe if you speak real slow…and use smaller words. (you just love the little jab, don’t you)

No it’s not a hard concept to understand, the problem is…who should adapt…the established business or the new arrivals?

I learned coming up “when in rome” people need to adapt to the place where they are moving to…not the other way around. And if they did…many more people would stay, instead of leaving.

Of course, if you convert the place into a small version of where you lived before, those rules don’t apply, and you get what you deserve…which is all the businesses and people leaving in droves.

So, you leave me my other option…leave. And the people here can have their business less little slum.

[Lothar]

who should adapt…the established business or the new arrivals?

That depends. Do you want to do business with the new arrivals? Are there others who are going to go above and beyond what you are doing to do business with them? If so, you need to adapt to stay competitive.

If you don't care about doing business with them, or if they have no other choice, then you hold all the cards. Even so, I'd personally rather have happy customers than upset ones. I'd at least put in a bit of effort to learn Spanish if I was going to run a business in a Spanish-speaking neighborhood, or Chinese if I was going to run a business in a Chinese-speaking neighborhood.

But you don't have to. You can choose your alternative -- you can choose to shut down your business, sell off your local assets, pay all sorts of taxes and transaction costs, and go elsewhere. That just seems to me to be a more expensive choice -- taking a couple quarters of Spanish at the community college costs significantly less than relocating.

[Spidey]

Well, if there was someone who spoke Spanish in competition with me, they would drop me like a hot potato, just like they drop any other businesses, when a Spanish speaking one enters the market.

I would also have to learn Spanish “in depth” to do business with a person that spoke only Spanish, because my business is involved with doing custom work, not just selling something off a shelf, and I’m way too old and sick to learn Spanish in depth.

Also, I would not learn Spanish to serve my customers/employees on principal alone, so I would rather take the “moving on” option.

What happens next…the place I end up in, winds up turning into a Japanese speaking area…learn Japanese?

If that ends up being my fate…so be it.

I stopped going into one Spanish speaking store, because they never knew what I wanted…so I guess that’s an omen.

[Ferno]

As I was thinking back on what I did in the hotel industry, I remembered that we had a house cleaner on staff that spoke polish and very very little english.

Now some people here may say that she should stay on because she needs a job. okay fair enough: if she can do the job, fine. But trying to give her instructions was extremely difficult. Not to mention when she wanted her hour sheet. It took me a good minute to understand something that's supposed to take two seconds.

Now, should I learn polish to accommodate one person, or should I put in a memo requesting we hire a polish translator?


If I were to learn polish, I would have to donate a good chunk of my own time and my own resources in order to communicate with her. While this is going on I have to still try and do my level best to at least figure out what she needs and a way to give instructions.

you may think this is fair for her, but it is seriously unfair for the other people around her because they have to deal with the difficulty of not being able to communicate on even a base level. Instructions are not understood, leading to poor performance and sometimes very angry guests. And angry guests lead to a bad reputation. And a bad reputation is kryptonite for a hotel.


The other option is to hire a translator.

That may work for a little longer, but there's two problems with that. the translator has to be in the office when the both of us are there in order to communicate, and the translators here command a substantial sum. And what happens when business slows down during the winter months as it's prone to do?

When cuts are made, the translator is the first to go unfortunately.


When all things are considered, I would still hire someone who speaks english because A: instructions are understood clearly and B: guests don't get angry because the room is ready for them.

It just makes more sense.

[SilverFJ]

I'd learn Spanish and downsize my business by 50%. I'd use the liquidated other 50% to begin and operate another store with the same product not that far away, but only speak English and cater to english-speaking people. Then when each of my customer bases go to their respective stores, I'll make sure that they know they're better people for going to that particular store, and the ignorant english (or) spanish speaking people can wallow in the filth of the other store. All the money ends up in my pocket anyway.

It's great how American politics can teach you how to make money more than anything.

[Duper]

Interesting input Ferno. I work with may ESL folks; most from Asia somewhere. I say somewhere because there are about 4 different countries perhaps 5 that are involved. One of my past managers was from Poland. He was in EXACTLY the situation that you described, Ferno, back in the 70's. He is now naturalized. He also speaks the language very well. Another is (a gal) is from China. Her English is coming along nicely, but culture as well as vocabulary provides its share of hurdles for her.
Now, I live not too far from Scoundrel. He lives in a town called Hillsboro, or mini Mexico. Cuda can knows what I'm talking about. There is a HUGE Mexican population. It's gotten so that much of the signs in stores and some road signs are in Spanish as well as English. My Great-grand parents emigrated here from Poland. Back then, 100's of thousands (I haven't looked up the figures)flooded into this country. While we don't hear about it now, Americans then felt and had the same feelings we do now ... \"they'll take all our jobs\", \"They have to learn the language\" ... blah blah blah. (There weren't the social programs then we have now so that wasn't an issue so much) A couple of things happened.
1), they congregated in areas of towns or on the outskirts. Mini Swedens or Polands or Italys.
2) within 2 generations, they were completely integrated into society. (my Dad) That's 40 years +/-

Sure there were lots of sore feelings that lingered for decades, but most of those folks are gone now. The difference is that the folks from the south are in denser numbers. They have been given the option to exist here without having to become part of the country, and we are not \"expecting\" them to integrate. .. that's not PC. We wouldn't want them to lose their identity now would we?

My GGparents came with the understanding they were LEAVING their homeland to a new homeland... not a job commute. I bare no grudge, but if you are going to another country, even visiting, you will fair much better if you try and use some language and give them the respect that is due.

We are of course speaking in broad sterotypes. While many of them exists, there are many who are making an effort. I don't see where we should marginalize our culture to accommodate a singular group of people. Canada has done this with the French and it's not worked well. .. of course that's a slightly different circumstance.

Translators are a GREAT idea. We have one or two picked out for each language group at work.

I see Spidey's point and I understand what Lothar is saying, but in the end, as a people I think it's impractical and unnecessary. Within 2 gens or so, they will all be Americans. ... if we don't allow a soft option.

Change is hard, change is painful sometimes. Is it more painful than living with nothing in another country? ..hmm.

Incidentally, my great grandma never learned English 100% She still spoke Polish with her friends. and When stokes took most of everything from her, all she could speak was Polish. I don't. i wish I had been taught. The point is, is that she made a real effort and it proved VERY difficult for her. She was a farmer and a house wife. She had a child die of whooping cough. They were real people with real lives.