Obama is joined by Hamas in ground zero mosque endorsement

[null0010]

If you are Christian, and you would aid the victim of an attack by Christian extremists (and you would presumably see this, the aid, as a good action),

why would the same not hold true for a muslim man?

[AlphaDoG]

If you are Christian, and you would aid the victim of an attack by Christian extremists (and you would presumably see this, the aid, as a good action),

why would the same not hold true for a muslim man?

My turn, as a christian it would be my duty to come to the aid of either one.

As a man, with flaws, and with a worldview that is corrupted by the flesh, I still have problems with "forgiveness", I'm working on it though.

[CUDA]

On your first statement. How long do we send them medical aid and money to assist them before they get off the Crusade bit.

OH I don't know say maybe 300 years??

The Crusades (1095–1291)

Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

[null0010]

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

[Cuda68]

OK - Why do we (or him) feel the need to associate religion with a selfless act?

[null0010]

Nevermind.

[Kilarin]

it wasn't aimed at Muslims it was aimed at Americans. Americans were the target.

It was aimed at Americans. Some of those Americans were Muslim. That is the nature of America.

Just Muslim and until they show they want peace - I have no use for them and I won't give kudo's to a random mistake.

If a Muslim dying trying to help the victims of the 911 attack isn't enough to convince you that there can be good Muslims, then I don't think anything will.

This sounds exactly like the radical fundamentalist Muslims. They believe that ALL Christians are at war with them, so they will offer no respect or mercy to any of them.

There were good Japanese people, even when we were at war with Japan. Even living IN Japan. Even fighting against us. Surely we can give an even greater benefit of the doubt to an AMERICAN who died trying to save lives. Even if his religion happens to be Islam?

I've got a lot of problems with Islam. But there are around about 1.57 BILLION Muslims in this world. They aren't ALL out to get you.

They follow various Islamic faiths that are as different from each other as Catholicism is from Pentecostalism. Some are deeply dedicated to their faith, and some follow it no more closely than a Christian who only goes to church on Easter and Christmas each year. Some of them are Americans...

and some of them are heros.

[CUDA]

OK - Why do we (or him) feel the need to associate religion with a selfless act?

because you have associated him with being unable to commit a selfless act because of his religion

[Will Robinson]

it wasn't aimed at Muslims it was aimed at Americans. Americans were the target.

It was aimed at Americans. Some of those Americans were Muslim. That is the nature of America. ..

Right, and yet only the feelings of the survivors who are Muslim are important and the feelings of the non-Muslim survivors is somehow purely racist and Islamophobic. I'm calling bull★■◆● on that!

[Kilarin]

It was aimed at Americans. Some of those Americans were Muslim. That is the nature of America. ..

Right, and yet only the feelings of the survivors who are Muslim are important and the feelings of the non-Muslim survivors is somehow purely racist and Islamophobic. I'm calling ***** on that!

Two points.

First: I think it's important for America to realize that if anyone attacks America, they attack ALL of us. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Satanists, Quakers, Atheists, Indifferent, and all the rest. If you attack this country, you attack ALL of us. And we should respond united.

Second: I think the views of both sides should count. But I think most people on BOTH sides are showing a complete disregard for the viewpoint of the other.

But there is a difference between what "counts" and what is "not allowed" by law. Again, I think both sides are being stupid on this. The Muslims have the right to build a Mosque on private property wherever it is zoned for such. EVERY right, no matter who is offended. And the Christians who are upset have a right to protest. Loudly. EVERY right, no matter who is offended.

Both sides have a right to do as they wish. Both sides are being idiots for exercising that right.

But, it's not against the law to be an idiot. And thank goodness for that.

[Will Robinson]

.. I think the views of both sides should count. But I think most people on BOTH sides are showing a complete disregard for the viewpoint of the other. ..

I think you are trying to over simplify the situation.

There are a lot of people who defend their right to build there and do not disregard the Muslim point of view. We have listened to their spokesperson, what little of substance he has offered, but having taken that into consideration have concluded the construction of the center/mosque will cause a greater harm to the American people, including many american Muslims who oppose the project than the harm caused by asking them to reconsider their choice of location. Yes, we acknowledge that request will make some of them uncomfortable but it pales in comparison to the discomfort caused by the alternative!

On the other side it does appear they have simply taken no regard for the reasons why people oppose the center/mosque being built there.
Their arguments are simply that we must be racists.

So for many of us the two sides do not appear to be acting out in the same fashion or with equal arrogance and disregard for the other.

The whole bigot defense thing is getting old and is so lame that it makes me think they know they are wrong and are pulling a page out of Jesse Jackson's play book because they know they can polarize the citizens and get the media working for them if they make it all about left/right...Christian/Muslim instead of leaving us united as Americans with a common interest in how we are treated.
Look at your own post above, you broke it down to 'Christian versus Muslim' even though I think there has been no protest waged on behalf of Christians but rather on behalf of Americans or New Yorkers.

[null0010]

Christianity is being brought up to make an analogy.

[Will Robinson]

Christianity is being brought up to make an analogy.

In the context of why people would be unhappy with the center/mosque location I don't follow the application of the analogy. Why would the protesters need to be something other than what they are in order to make the point?

[Lothar]

We have ... concluded the construction of the center/mosque will cause a greater harm to the American people

... and they have rejected your conclusion.

Why make it more complicated than that by guessing at their motives or complaining that they don't seem to be taking you seriously? They've made their choice, which they have every right to do.

My conclusion is that your whining causes more harm to America than their community center. You are free to reject my conclusion, of course; that's part of what makes this country great.

[Cuda68]

Looks like it is escalating in Tennessee. They are suspecting arson at a construction site for a Mosque.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/201 ... fire_N.htm

[Will Robinson]

We have ... concluded the construction of the center/mosque will cause a greater harm to the American people

... and they have rejected your conclusion.

Why make it more complicated than that by guessing at their motives or complaining that they don't seem to be taking you seriously? They've made their choice, which they have every right to do. ..

Kilarin suggested both sides are equal in their disregard for the other. I explained why I see a difference and even from your post to me it appears you see a disparity as well...
And we are all still fully aware of their right, that was never the topic.

As to my doing more harm in my protest....I hope not but with the arson event on top of other events like it I need to think about it.
It's funny, I ask that all Muslims not be offended at my disparaging the results of their religions intrinsic racism and instead see cause to actively separate themselves from the radicals and now I find myself lumped in with dumbass rednecks using the event to act out and validate their racist instincts.
People are just so much fun when they are stupid.

[Kilarin]

My conclusion is that your whining causes more harm to America than their community center. You are free to reject my conclusion, of course; that's part of what makes this country great.

Exactly.

And we are all still fully aware of their right, that was never the topic

I understand that you recognize that. Sorry if I implied otherwise. But there are a LOT of people involved in the protest who don't. They are calling for legal (or even illegal) action to stop this Mosque. They scare me. They scare me more than the people building the Mosque.

Kilarin suggested both sides are equal in their disregard for the other. I explained why I see a difference and even from your post to me it appears you see a disparity as well...

The side supporting the Mosque is being stupid. But if no one had bothered to protest, they wouldn't have even been noticed. Whether they intended harm or not, not much harm could have been done.

But with the protest, now its become a BIG issue, which I think is bad. And there are people clamoring for government action, which I think is VERY bad. And there are people considering, or even acting upon vigilante action, which I think is downright evil.

To put it in perspective, here is an example from the other direction:
<Afghans protest US church's plans to burn Quran>

The Afghan protest against the Koran burning is more extreme than the Christian protests against the Mosque. But they are closer than I am comfortable with. And the MAIN result of the protest is to draw attention to the idiots who are burning the Koran. The Gainesville church is trying to draw attention to themselves with this stunt. The Afghan protest is making it successful.

[Will Robinson]

..

And we are all still fully aware of their right, that was never the topic

I understand that you recognize that. Sorry if I implied otherwise.

No, it was Lothar

... The side supporting the Mosque is being stupid. But if no one had bothered to protest, they wouldn't have even been noticed. Whether they intended harm or not, not much harm could have been done.

Regardless of how you would quantify the harm it was obvious enough to cause a great number of people to become agitated at the prospect of the construction.
I don't think it is correct to expect them to be silent simply because bringing it up can be controversial.

Before the project was announced there was a much lower volume of anti-Muslim / anti-mosque noise being generated so would you suggest the Muslims shouldn't have introduced the project for the same reason you suggest the protesters shouldn't have raised their concerns against it?

That attitude seems to feed the meme that Muslims are to be coddled and excused of the same kind of offenses that we readily chastise others for. That is one of the bigger dangers to not protesting the construction considering their bedside manor belies the doctors claim of trying to be a healer in this case. He can take a pair of monkey wrenches to pry my throat open to enable the insertion of the throat lozenge but is he really trying to heal my sore throat?!?
I would love for this center/mosque project to be scrutinized by the mainstream media with the same zeal as a Christian organizations attempt to work with President Bush to man soup kitchens to distribute aid...
That isn't happening though because of the double standard. The media elite have already taken their predictable position of helping play the race card against the protesters who they see as being predominantly right wing. Therefore it isn't the substance of the debate but instead their political compass that sets the course for 'public opinion' to be led.

... But with the protest, now its become a BIG issue, which I think is bad. And there are people clamoring for government action, which I think is VERY bad. And there are people considering, or even acting upon vigilante action, which I think is downright evil.

To put it in perspective, here is an example from the other direction:
<Afghans protest US church's plans to burn Quran>

The Afghan protest against the Koran burning is more extreme than the Christian protests against the Mosque. But they are closer than I am comfortable with. And the MAIN result of the protest is to draw attention to the idiots who are burning the Koran. The Gainesville church is trying to draw attention to themselves with this stunt. The Afghan protest is making it successful.

I try hard to tell people that perspective is way wrong and try to remove them from my argument. It is worrisome and ultimately I may have to concede that my team has just as many trouble makers at work as the other which makes my point a distinction without a difference. Sad but true.

[Kilarin]

so would you suggest the Muslims shouldn't have introduced the project for the same reason you suggest the protesters shouldn't have raised their concerns against it?

Oh, absolutely! It was a STUPID thing to do.

It is worrisome and ultimately I may have to concede that my team has just as many trouble makers at work as the other which makes my point a distinction without a difference. Sad but true.

Unfortunately, the world's supply of idiots never seems to decrease. On the contrary, it always seems to be growing. You would think we would run out of them eventually. Evolution, ecology, and simple common sense all imply that we should have a REDUCING pool of idiots.

But it appears that idiots are a very renewable resource. To bad we can't burn them for energy.

[Will Robinson]

...
Unfortunately, the world's supply of idiots never seems to decrease. On the contrary, it always seems to be growing. You would think we would run out of them eventually. Evolution, ecology, and simple common sense all imply that we should have a REDUCING pool of idiots.

But it appears that idiots are a very renewable resource. To bad we can't burn them for energy.

Too much affirmative action for idiots perhaps?
We used to hang horse thieves, usually before they had a chance to 'influence' their children. Now we have to understand them, coddle them, set them free and provide them with government housing and free food.

[Tunnelcat]

Better be careful. Idiocy, stupidity, bigotry and xenophobia usually go hand in hand with each other. A person is either intelligent enough to see that freedom of religion applies in this country, no matter how distasteful that religion may be in one's mind, or else a person is a bigoted emotional idiot thinking from their gut with no basis in coherent thought.

By the way, if we used to hang horse thieves, we need to start hanging a few Wall Street thieves today. They've taken far more than any horse thief ever did.

[Cuda68]

I think this has more to do with a total lack of sensitivity on the Muslim side of this. Not to mention there repeated attacks on us at cost of many thousands of American lives since the 60's that I am aware of.

[Kilarin]

Too much affirmative action for idiots perhaps?

Possibly. But when I look at history, it doesn't seem to be a new problem. We've always had idiots. <sigh>

[Stroodles]

Too much affirmative action for idiots perhaps?

Possibly. But when I look at history, it doesn't seem to be a new problem. We've always had idiots. <sigh>

Sadly, evolution only works when the idiots get eaten by saber tooth tigers.

[woodchip]

My response to the Muslims at large is to \"join the club\". By that I mean Muslims are not the first nor will they be the last to suffer the righteous indignation of the American people. Down in lower Manhattan is St Patricks Basilica, around a portion of which is a brick wall. The wall was built to keep at bay the hoards of anti-Catholicism types running amuck, fearful that the mother church was going to try and control America through the flood of Catholic immigrants arriving on our shore during the early/mid 1800's.

In the case of the Muslims, certain elements within the Islamic faith seem bent on stirring up ours and the worlds collective outrage:

Talk of implementing Sharia law in America does not help their cause.

Honor killings of their westernized offspring, then being proclaimed heroes of their faith does not help their cause.

Killing 3000 of our citizens with no strong condemnation by influential leaders does not help their cause.

And of course, trying to stick a phallic symbol right next door to where the worst attack on American soil occurred; planned, orchestrated and carried out by Muslims certainly does not help their cause.

[Tunnelcat]

As an American, you can either respect our constitutional right that allows ALL religions to practice freely, no matter how much that particular religion repulses you, or you can disrespect and ignore the Constitution and be for restricting any religion for any inane reason. Which is more principled? You can't give Christians MORE rights than Muslims. Remember, we have to uphold ALL of the Constitution and that little sub note, freedom of religion for ALL religions. We can't be selective about it or it becomes just a worthless piece of paper.

If it becomes meaningless, a majority in the U.S. could be persuaded by some charismatic leader from some other religion that ALL of Mormonism (I'll use that as an example) is a dangerous cult to society because SOME of their more 'extreme' sects promote child rape and underage marriage and they should be banned, or worse. One can't pick and choose WHICH religion they want to give those constitutional freedoms to. And you can't choose which religion you disapprove of based on which ones kill outsiders. We've forgiven the Shinto Japanese, but we can't seem to drop our hatred of Islam. The two mainstream Western religions, Judaism and Christianity, have all gone to war, subjugated nations and justified killing others, all in the name of God using the Bible as justification, so our hands aren't clean either.

And now we have this crazy Florida \"Christian\" preacher that wants to burn the Muslim Holy Book and stir up more hate. Is that what we want as nation, to fulfill Bin Laden's wish of Holy War? Whatever happened to being magnanimous?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162- ... 03544.html

Even General Petraeus sees that this jerk's little book burning party is stirring up hatred towards our soldiers in Afghanistan, which is threatening to increase attacks on U.S. soldiers. They're already getting stones thrown at them. If this guy is so passionate about his hatred of Islam, the bastard should be conscripted, given a gun and sent out into the front lines in Afghanistan to give him a personal chance to shoot Muslims himself if he hates them so much. If he doesn't want to vent his hate that way, he needs to shut the f**k up! In fact, I think that all little good Christians that hate Muslims should be drafted and sent to any one of several Muslim nations we are occupying at the moment and continue their little Holy War THERE if they want one so bad! Quit dragging the rest of us into your war.

[Cuda68]

Your real big and nasty on constitutional rights when it comes to freedom of religion, but not freedom of speech. I am against the Mosque but it will most likly be built anyway because of freedom of religion. Welcome to the club of the helpless.

[CUDA]

As an American, you can either respect our constitutional right
...................... he needs to shut the f**k up! In fact,

Both side of the face there huh.

Now that being said this pastor is wrong Morally and Biblically. but at least be consistant in your posts TC. one second your talking about respecting Muslim's rights the next your blasting Christians rights to free speech. you cannot have it both ways. this is all covered under the 1st Amendment.

[Cuda68]

They brought the war to us and shoved it down our throats. This is a list of only the attacks on American soil. This does not include plane hijacks like Lockerbie, assaults on Americans abroad or Emassy bombings That date back to the early 60's. As a Nation we have been very tolerant.

But as Cuda pointed out we should be even more tolerant of them. Something like 70 x 7 years or something. It is in a posting by him further back. I am still pondering the full meaning of that one.


Islamic Terror Attacks on American Soil

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages ... ttacks.htm

[CUDA]

But as Cuda pointed out we should be even more tolerant of them. Something like 70 x 7 years or something. It is in a posting by him further back. I am still pondering the full meaning of that one.

actually you merged both my points. the point Christ was making is you should never stop forgiving

that being said that does not mean your choices dont come with consequences.

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.

4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer

[snoopy]

I see this as an inevitability.

I also think that the community center will be subject to a whole lot of vandalism, especially right at first.

I'm not saying that I like any of it, but that's how I think it will happen.

[woodchip]

As an American, you can either respect our constitutional right that allows ALL religions to practice freely, no matter how much that particular religion repulses you,

But they can practice freely, no one said they couldn't. Putting a giant mosque/cultural center right next to ground zero is basically telling Americans to get screwed so conversely we have every right to fire back.

[snoopy]

As an American, you can either respect our constitutional right that allows ALL religions to practice freely, no matter how much that particular religion repulses you,

But they can practice freely, no one said they couldn't. Putting a giant mosque/cultural center right next to ground zero is basically telling Americans to get screwed so conversely we have every right to fire back.

As my wife put it: "It feels like they're rubbing our nose in it. (it being 9/11/01)"

A lot of people are trying to make this into a religious freedom thing. It's about the fact that there's a deeper meaning and symbolism to building a mosque on the site of a huge act of terrorism that was inspired by Islam. A lot of America seems to be interpreting it the way that my wife did... Tell me, how else should people interpret it? ("Don't" isn't a valid answer, in my opinion.)

[null0010]

Interpret it as a building on a plot of land next to another plot of land. Or as a place where people go to pray and associate with their community. If enough people do this, then even if (and I do not believe this) their actual intent is to build something offensive, then it will become un-offensive through consensus. It will be what it is, just a building.

[woodchip]

Interpret it as a building on a plot of land next to another plot of land. Or as a place where people go to pray and associate with their community. If enough people do this, then even if (and I do not believe this) their actual intent is to build something offensive, then it will become un-offensive through consensus. It will be what it is, just a building.

Then the good pastor who is going to burn a bunch of Korans is only burning some books and Muslims should take no offense.

[AlphaDoG]

If enough people do this, then even if (and I do not believe this) their actual intent is to burn something offensive, then it will become un-offensive through consensus. It will be what it is, just a book.

[null0010]

If enough people do this, then even if (and I do not believe this) their actual intent is to burn something offensive, then it will become un-offensive through consensus. It will be what it is, just a book.

You've summed up my opinion on that matter as well.

[Lothar]

As my wife put it: "It feels like they're rubbing our nose in it. (it being 9/11/01)"

.... It's about the fact that there's a deeper meaning and symbolism to building a mosque on the site of a huge act of terrorism that was inspired by Islam. A lot of America seems to be interpreting it the way that my wife did...

But instead of getting angry about it and giving extremists another victory, I've chosen to be at peace with it. We are better than them; let's act like it. We are able to look at their hate speech and laugh it off as lunacy. If this place is also hate speech, then let's laugh at it instead of protesting it.

"LOL they think a mosque at ground zero will crush our spirit. Pathetic. Maybe one day they'll be smart enough to realize they've done nothing more than build next to a strip club, a McDonalds, and a guy selling hotdogs out of a cart."

[Gooberman]

But instead of getting angry about it and giving extremists another victory, I've chosen to be at peace with it. We are better than them; let's act like it. We are able to look at their hate speech and laugh it off as lunacy. If this place is also hate speech, then let's laugh at it instead of protesting it.

"LOL they think a mosque at ground zero will crush our spirit. Pathetic. Maybe one day they'll be smart enough to realize they've done nothing more than build next to a strip club, a McDonalds, and a guy selling hotdogs out of a cart."

Exactly.

[Spidey]

I’m pretty sure if you simply “laughed at it” somehow they would find a way to be offended by that as well.

Personally I don’t give a crap who builds a mosque, where they build it, or for what reason…but I do believe the request to “please” build elsewhere, is a very civilized reaction, and whould be beneficial to all involved, if they did. (build elsewhere)