Torture practices - yay or nay?

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Thu May 13, 2004 12:29 pm

Torture practices - yay or nay?
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/Inve ... 40512.html

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu May 13, 2004 2:57 pm

War is war. I know the enemy often times do more brutal stuff, but hey, this is war.

Vander · Post by **Vander** » Thu May 13, 2004 3:22 pm

I would probably fall under "nay," but that doesn't mean I don't think the military should have the capability. The military needs to be capable of fighting those that don't follow rules or have our sensibilities, so if a war gets to the point where torturous interrogations become a necessity, I want them to know how to do it in the most effective way.

Now, since our war in Iraq is one in which we are trying to lead by example, and win over the hearts and minds of Iraqis and the greater middle east(IE, not a war of defense), I would think that it would be a bad idea to use such torture methods. It seems that as a tactic, it hurts our goals of showing them a different way more than it helps.(even if a media feeding frezy didn't erupt)

And of course, there is the whole "treat prisoners as you expect captive US Soldiers to be treated" arguement.

So, while I think knowledge and training in such methods should be acceptable, their practice should be shelved until the most dire of circumstances. I don't believe we are in the midst of those circumstances.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu May 13, 2004 3:57 pm

It's all good until some jerkoffs amuse themselves by utilizing those torture tactics in a gratuitous, non-productive way just to grab some personal photo's to show off with, as we saw done by the dumbasses at the center of the recent situation in Iraq.

As to the general principle of the question, all's fair in love and war, besides these are people fighting out of uniform which entitles them to be shot on sight as spies anyway, even after capture.

But as Zell Miller said today, I'm disgusted that the 'indignation for making an al Queda prisoner wear womens underwear on his head is greater than the indignation for an american having his head cut off!'

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu May 13, 2004 5:42 pm

I'm disgusted that the 'indignation for making an al Queda prisoner wear womens underwear on his head is greater than the indignation for an american having his head cut off!'

This sums up my exact point of view. The military knows what it is doing. Hell, some of the stuff done to US soldiers in the more elite branches of military services just to TRAIN them are far more severe then what I've seen done to the prisoner insurgents over there so far.

All this outrage doesn't really surprise me when it is being cried by a pussy-whiped society. Grow a pair and let these guys do their damn jobs without constant public scrutiny all the time. It's hard enough for them to do the job just by itself, let alone have to do it knowing your own country is being led to believe you're failing. Humiliation is far different then slow and brutally lethal tortures used by some other countries for interrogation or even just sick sadistic satisfaction (IE Saddam).

I'm sure wearing the underwear of a perceived inferior sex on their heads is far worse then having the skin pealed off of their bodies.

They seem to have the self esteem and mental development of a 10 year old. I don't think present day Earth has any tolerance for a society run by 10 year olds anymore.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:23 am

America signed onto the geneva convention.. there is now a responsibility to uphold those beliefs and rules. you can't just say 'well screw the geneva convention' in this one time and not expect ramifications.

that's like me killing someone arbitrarily because he killed a buddy of mine and thinking that the law won't touch me.

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:19 am

Tyranny wrote:All this outrage doesn't really surprise me when it is being cried by a *****-whiped society. Grow a pair and let these guys do their damn jobs without constant public scrutiny all the time.

.. i don't know what to say to this.
i can't believe you just said that. are you serious?

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Fri May 14, 2004 3:49 am

He's right roid. The middle east is populated by warriors who have no education and who are brainwashed by the leaders. They take the people from small towns 200km out in the desert and train them at a young age and convince them that the bible they talk about is the right one.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:52 am

which one is the right one Merlin? Yours?

Tricord · Post by **Tricord** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:21 am

CDN_Merlin wrote:He's right roid. The middle east is populated by warriors who have no education and who are brainwashed by the leaders. They take the people from small towns 200km out in the desert and train them at a young age and convince them that the bible they talk about is the right one.

Actually the kind of terrorists you talk about are very intelligent and have had a quality education. It is not the poor Iraqi who lives in a shed on a garbage field with his wife and children that is planning and executing terrorist attacks or killing american soldiers.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Fri May 14, 2004 7:36 am

Ferno wrote:America signed onto the geneva convention.. there is now a responsibility to uphold those beliefs and rules...

I think the Geneva Convention only applies to treatment of captured soldiers from a uniformed army. Not that we should abandon morality just because we found a loophole but there is a reason we shoot spies on sight but treat the uniformed soldier of our enemy with some respect.

These plain clothed murderers are spies according to the same wisdom that gives us the Geneva Convention. Spies can be shot on sight... I believe when in theater they can even be executed by the military without any trial.
Right now they are taking advantage of our higher moral standards at the expense of coalition lives by hiding among the civilian population.

Again, I'm against the gratuitous torture that was done by the armed frat rats in the prison but some perspective regarding exactly who we are dealing with over there is past due. I recommend the Berg head hacking video for a crash course reminder in who we are dealing with over there. They are not enemy soldiers, they are mad dogs we are rounding up.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:32 am

Zuruck, I follow my own code of conduct because I don't believe in the bible.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri May 14, 2004 8:57 am

Good post Trichord.

Will, I agree with you more than I usually do, which is surprising. But dont you think, regardless of whatever they do, America cannot lower itself and use the cope out of "they're bad". We were/are supposed to bring them an updated, civilized lifestyle and shouldn't resort to such things. We are a very powerful country, but remember, there are 1 billion Muslims in this world. There are a maximum of 2 million US troops that could be activated. If every single man woman and child in this country fought, we'd still be outnumbered 3 to 1. Do it smart, or don't do it at all.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Fri May 14, 2004 10:41 am

Muslims don't follow the Bible, they follow the Qu'ran.

B-

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Fri May 14, 2004 11:07 am

Pimp, I knew that but didn't know how to spell it and I hope everyone was smart enough to realize that's what I meant.

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:37 pm

Grow a pair and let these guys do their damn jobs without constant public scrutiny all the time.

Public scrutiny is responsible for all the good aspects of this country. I doubt you really want what you are asking for to be the common public reaction.

This war cannot be won just by killing terrorists. You cannot oversimplify humans to that extent. Being a "terrorist" isn't like being born with 3 arms, easily identifiable, and quite possible to kill everyone who has this characteristic.

Terrorism is just an idea. That beheading was quite possibly the most horrific image of the war. But did any of you guys read what those who performed this inexcusable act said?

They view Americans as occupiers. They think we are there to kill them all, (which we do kill them), rape them, (which allegations have been made), and do all of this just so that a few rich white Christians can earn more wealth (we have business men there now, he was one of them).

Do not quote any above saying that this is my belief. But it is their belief. And it is this belief that must be fought against.

There arenâ??t X many terrorists. There is an idea and a misconception that has to be defeated. If we kill one, then we may be gaining two.

This is a difficult position to say the least. We need to convince them that we arenâ??t out just to kill Iraqiâ??s, while at the same time we are killing Iraqis. We need to convince them that we care about their best interests, and at the same time are â??torturingâ?

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Fri May 14, 2004 2:56 pm

Pimp, I knew that but didn't know how to spell it...

Just take a stab at it, that's what me and Goob do.

B-

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:43 pm

Public scrutiny is fine if it's educated. In this situation most of it is not though Goob. You have the media whipping the public into a frenzy over something that, while it might be reprehensible, is not as reprehensive as what they would like to compare it to.

It gets to the point where this country gets so anal about everything that now the soldiers come home no longer Americans, but villians in the public eye. Suddenly there is no seperation between the act of the few and the deeds of the many. You just have Americans blindly being bigots because they're too lazy to actually do some research themselves and see if what the media has been saying is all there is to the whole story. Half the time it isn't and they don't know any better, even though they THINK they do.

As far as what the Iraqi beliefs are. We are no longer fighting Iraqis Goob. The men who are iraqis that are part of the insurgent groups are men who fled Iraq years ago. They come back to fight not for Iraq, but for their religion, a religion in which believes that all Americans or any other nations that do not believe in Islam will burn from Islamic Jihad and must perish. They are islamic extremists and yes, because it is a belief, it is a very hard thing to fight indeed.

The unfortunate part of this whole mess is they will never be satiated. Even if we left the middle east completely and offered wealth and good living, they would take and take and take and their religion would still dictate that they kill Americans, or non-Islamic citizens from other countries. We've seen it happening long before the events of 9/11, the bombings in Afghanistan and the beginning of Iraqi Freedom.

The difficult task will be reaching the young generation of middle easterners. To enlighten them to the fact that America wants their families, their culture, to thrive. That we are not there to occupy and conquer. This is a message that even the adults should embrace, though much harder to convey.

Their beliefs as a whole do not consist of Islamic extremist ideals, yet they've let those ideals fester in their countries. I fear getting this message across might be impossible since they teach anger and hate at such an early age, and as adults have already embraced some of these ideals, the damage might already be too far along to repair. This cannot be a deterant from trying however.

It's very hard to understand a people who have tolerated such beliefs for so long to where they would let their own people stoop to blowing up their own people along with ours and make it seem like it's our fault and that we're to blame. People who educate themselves in OUR country as well as others only to return to use that knowledge against them and us. Even though there are other people who use those same educations to benefit themselves, their families and people in general, it's hard to understand the logic behind it all. Use the teachings of the west, which might come as a great personal benefit, as a weapon in which to destroy that which taught you?

These are the same kind of people though, that while mortally wounded would still try to convince you that they were fine and that they had won the fight. Even in the face of death they'd never admit to their failures or faults because their religion teaches they will be rewarded for such deeds.

It is a hard fight to say the least, I'll agree with that.

Zuruck wrote:which one is the right one Merlin? Yours?

Well considering theirs tells them to murder yours at all costs, I'd say most beliefs that don't follow the same lines has to be more right then theirs. Why do you think we look down on some of our own history the way we do? Because we know that what took place was wrong. Thats what admitting to your mistakes and growing up as a nation can do. We atleast try to make strides to rectify the atrocities of our past. They refuse to acknowledge the atrocities of their present.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Sat May 15, 2004 5:35 am

Tyranny wrote: I fear getting this message across might be impossible since they teach anger and hate at such an early age, and as adults have already embraced some of these ideals

At work this week i was discussing the Beheading of Berg with an Israeli Arab guy and how i just couldn't get my mind round how one human could do that to another. Whilst he thoroughly agreed with me, and felt ashamed that his culture was being bastardized by the extremists (i'm paraphrasing) He said to me that the problem with western culture is that it isn't ready to understand eastern arab culture, and until it does there will never be any progress, and he gave me the following exmple.

In a western family, a child has a pet. Let's say for the sake of argument it's a cute dog that he's loved for many years. One day the father says we can't afford the dog so we have to kill him. What would be the responce of the child? Having dogs when i was a kid i replied that the child would be devestated.

He said to me if it happened in my culture the kid would volunteer to kill the dog to make his father proud, and be devestated if he wasn't allowed.

Take what you want from the story, i'm not even sure if he made it up, but it illustrates quite well what he meant about the lack of understanding. Him being an Israeli arab, he has the benefit of both democracy and his rich culture, but he has that clash as well. He's a good honest bloke.

Back on topic: I vote yay! Informtion gathering by the intel services is an essential part of war and it saves lives. I don't know how many lives have been saved by inflicting sleep deprevation upon prisoners, and to be honest it's none of my business, but i'm glad somone is willing to do it to stop the next 9/11, or Madrid, or Eniskillin, or Istanbul, ect ect

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Sat May 15, 2004 4:02 pm

Interesting story Flabby, but how can we be expected to understand the good part of their culture if they keep allowing the extremists in their culture to kill anyone outside of islam?

I mean....they've allowed the radicals of islam to overshadow the decent arab people in the eyes of Americans. To a lot of Americans, people don't see the seperation. I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans believe that ALL arabs are islamic extremists. This is unfortunate and uneducated to say the least, but again, this is something they've let fester in the arab world for far too long.

The dog analogy, while interesting, as I stated above, doesn't fly with me for the simple reason that we used to have to do the same thing to our pets, such as a dog, YEARS ago. Long before animal shelters sprung up all over the country. Now if an animal needs to be put down, you have it put to sleep. There are places in this country where people probably still shoot their dogs when they get old and are in pain to put them out of their misery. The pioneer days in the old west were littered with instances similar to these situations where a boy has to become a man.

I'm not sure I understand this culture shock he speaks of happening, since we have plenty of Muslims that live in the US. Who, unfairly, are being mistreated by other US citizens because their own people have refused to take action against the most violent among them. Up until the point where Americans have been led to believe that all arabs are extremists, we seemed to tolerate their differences just fine.

TrueLightGuild · Post by **TrueLightGuild** » Wed May 19, 2004 5:36 am

I don't think torture should be allowed in our military prisons.
What are we a bunch of low life scum that have to revert back to the dark ages to resolve anything?
The enemy is going to do this, but that is one reason they are our enemies.
I say give them cake and cookies and show them how much better we are than they themselves are.
We are big enough to treat people right, no matter how backward they are.

Krom · Post by **Krom** » Wed May 19, 2004 8:45 am

That is a problem TLG, the only thing we can do that would make the extremeists happy is if we all died, nothing else would satisfy them.

Kill one terrorist and two more show up. Kill ten million terrorists and few would dare to become one ever again.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Sat May 22, 2004 12:16 am

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/ ... index.html

Sorry for reviving an oldish thread but it's on topic. I love the typical straight forward no nonsence army quote.

"That's not to say somebody didn't get their head dunked in the water,"

Classic quote that!!!

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Tue May 25, 2004 2:39 pm

CDN_Merlin wrote:War is war. I know the enemy often times do more brutal stuff, but hey, this is war.

merlin, if you think that way, you have understood *nothing*. Nothing about humanity, nothing about civilization, nothing about what should distinguish a humane, democratic civilization from the brutal reign of dictators and mass murders.

The western democracies have their whole civilization, legislation, executive, politics based on standards that are meant to protect individuals freedom and health.

You can impossibly reserve such rights for certain people and not extend them to others. If you do so, you are leaving the ground you are standing on. You're betraying your standards, your ideals so to say.

From here it looks like some (a lot?) Americans fail to understand that. They fail to understand that the Bush government is undermining the very foundations of America, the traditions and credos you are rightly fond of.

Unfortunately, the U.S. has gone a long way in this direction since WW2, but imo whats currently going on adds a new dimension to it. In earlier decades, America committed its atrocities in secrecy. Now its done more and more openly, defended by strange doctrines of 'patriotism' and 'waging a war against terrorism', and coupled with a dire, two-fold strategy to intimidate the U.S. population by threatening them both with the danger of more terrorist attacks and laws that are made or abused against the personal rights guaranteed by your constitution, rights that are your deepest roots.

I would like to ask the 'Christians' who are supporting Bush (who afaik claims to be a 'Christian') since when it is good Christian walk to deliberately lie.

It is by now clear that the Bush administration lied to the American public about Iraq's support for the terrorists who had attacked America. It is clear that they lied to you about the kind of weapons Iraq had, and the kind of danger it posed to the states around it and the world. It is very clear that America has a new doctrine of power: To divide and conquer the whole world with brutal domination.

I have long been an admirer of the U.S. due to the noble traditions and beliefs you were standing and fighting for (and which saved the world from a reign as satanic as Hitler's - I say that as a German (who would have never wanted to live under such a regime)). When the U.S. attacked Iraq and it became more and more obvious that this was simply politics of power, I was upset and disgusted. If you had just said "we come to liberate a tormented people and as we're on it, get some oil", ok.

Now as the whole dimension of the torture scandal becomes more and more visible, and it becomes more and more clear that this was basically sanctioned by the highest authorities, America has finally lost the magical charm it had so long for me (and many other people in the world).

Welcome in the round of ordinary and not-so-special-at-all peoples of the world. You are not God's personal answer to this planet's misery. As you are currently acting, you're rather the opposite.

What has happened in Iraq has put all of Americas actions and motives in miscredit. The U.S. have done incredible damage to the west by totally and utterly ruining any of its cultural and political credibility.

America has driven out Satan with Beelzebub.

Thank you very much.

Big muscles - small brains.

Flame me if you like. I once admired your nation. How deep have you fallen.

I hope your nation finds the strength and morality to renew itself and rid itself of the parasites currently ruling it.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Tue May 25, 2004 2:43 pm

Krom wrote:That is a problem TLG, the only thing we can do that would make the extremeists happy is if we all died, nothing else would satisfy them.

Kill one terrorist and two more show up. Kill ten million terrorists and few would dare to become one ever again.

You are pretty simple minded, aren't you? Ever had the thought that if killing "10 million terrorists" you'd rather be committing genocide - and this turning into a terrorist yourself?

This is one of the subjects proving that the most common human disease is idiocy.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Tue May 25, 2004 2:51 pm

Tyranny wrote:Interesting story Flabby, but how can we be expected to understand the good part of their culture if they keep allowing the extremists in their culture to kill anyone outside of islam?

I had thought you'd be smarter Tyr. Do you actually believe the millions and millions of moslems out there - most of them simple people not concerned about religion too much, but rather about daily life (or survival) - actively support or encourage the islamic terrorists? That's a pretty cheap excuse for doing wrong one self.

Tyranny wrote:I mean....they've allowed the radicals of islam to overshadow the decent arab people in the eyes of Americans. To a lot of Americans, people don't see the seperation. I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans believe that ALL arabs are islamic extremists. This is unfortunate and uneducated to say the least, but again, this is something they've let fester in the arab world for far too long.

Why don't they? Because its uncomfortable to get informed. Because smarter people tell them the kind of propaganda you do here. Maybe because its nice to have a target.

Tyranny wrote:The dog analogy, while interesting, as I stated above, doesn't fly with me for the simple reason that we used to have to do the same thing to our pets, such as a dog, YEARS ago. Long before animal shelters sprung up all over the country. Now if an animal needs to be put down, you have it put to sleep. There are places in this country where people probably still shoot their dogs when they get old and are in pain to put them out of their misery. The pioneer days in the old west were littered with instances similar to these situations where a boy has to become a man.

I'm not sure I understand this culture shock he speaks of happening, since we have plenty of Muslims that live in the US. Who, unfairly, are being mistreated by other US citizens because their own people have refused to take action against the most violent among them. Up until the point where Americans have been led to believe that all arabs are extremists, we seemed to tolerate their differences just fine.

What makes you think (all) moslemic nations support terrorists? Sure, some do, but not even your glorious army with all its technological splendor has managed to get hold of Osama Bin Laden yet. It took Germany years to get hold of their terrorists back in the 70's and 80's of the last century.

It is so f'n cheap and hypocritical to excuse putting pressure on American Arabs/muslims with all the stuff you wrote there.

America claims to be the shrine of democracy of the world, the cradle of human rights, the guardian of freedom. And yet you trample on all this with your feet right now. And it even leashes back on you - just look at the infamous 'patriot act'.

Diedel · Post by **Diedel** » Tue May 25, 2004 2:56 pm

Tyranny wrote:Public scrutiny is fine if it's educated. In this situation most of it is not though Goob. You have the media whipping the public into a frenzy over something that, while it might be reprehensible, is not as reprehensive as what they would like to compare it to.

You are making a mistake here. The mistake is that you measure what has happened e.g. in Al Ghureib against what Saddam Hussein did. Instead you should measure it against what humanistic ideals the U.S. claims to stand for.

Btw, if prisoners have been beaten to death, there's not too much of a distinction of other torture regimes.

You also fail to notice or mention that the U.S. has built their own "G.U.L.A.G. archipelago" world wide where they can do what their constitution and laws forbid them to do in their own country, or let it be done by people from other nations who are not bound by U.S. law.

You'd better stop playing the self-righteous hypocrite here.

Tyranny wrote:The unfortunate part of this whole mess is they will never be satiated. Even if we left the middle east completely and offered wealth and good living, they would take and take and take and their religion would still dictate that they kill Americans, or non-Islamic citizens from other countries. We've seen it happening long before the events of 9/11, the bombings in Afghanistan and the beginning of Iraqi Freedom.

Tyr, has it never dawned to you that these countries and their culture does not want to be "made happy" by the U.S. and what you think is best for them? Has it ever dawned to you that there is something like a national sovereignty and, yes, pride? (You as an American should know darn well!) Has it ever occurred to you that what you are apologizing is plain and simple neo-colonialism?!

Do you know how much terror the U.S. has brought to other nations, claiming to be only wanting their best, when in fact it was your best?

Dou you know that the U.S. fabricated the incident giving them a reason to interfere in the Indochina conflict?

Do you know that Chile's president Allende was overthrown with the help of CIA, starting a reign of terror in that country lasting for decades?

Do you know that United Fruit long ruled in Middle America, keeping prices low and people poor for the sake of their profit?

Do you know that the U.S. supported the Contras in Nicaragua, and what terror they brought to their people?

Don't ask me what I think of America's treatment of Cuba, a nation so small and so poor I can only pity it. There are no nukes there any more dudes, not for a long, long time!

I know, there are nations far worse than the U.S. The difference is just: They don't claim to be the light of the world.

Let me conclude that it's simply a big, fat lie that the U.S. only wants the best for all nations of the world. You don't want the best for them, you want their best - to make you rich(er). Ofc, this is the way of economy; it's just that the U.S. does not simply resort to economical means any more, as their actions during the last few years blatantly show.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Tue May 25, 2004 6:57 pm

Diedel wrote:You are pretty simple minded

Diedel wrote:self-righteous hypocrite

Diedel wrote:Big muscles - small brains.

You can post these insults in private e-mails and in other forums all you want, but not in my forum. Calling your opposition "simple-minded" or "hypocrites" or commenting on the size of their brains is not helpful, and does not lead to good discussion.

I don't mind the occasional insult from a person who's mostly respectful, but you've managed post 3 blatant insults in a grand total of 4 posts, and you haven't showed a shred of respect for anybody. That's far too many insults and far too little respect.

Diedel wrote:Flame me if you like.

I'd advise against that. Anyone who flames in response will have their post deleted. Also, any future requests for flames will be deleted on sight.

Post in a civil manner, or don't post. Those are your only two options in my forum.