Education, Threat to National Security

[Sergeant Thorne]

In all of this talk, being terrified of Hitler is no excuse for not coming out against what he was doing. Being afraid is when there is danger is natural, inaction by reason of fear is cowardice, and the Bible says the cowardly have their place in Hell. I guess that would be a key commentary on the Catholic church as an institution during that time, if you believe they weren't in favor of Hitler for their own political or ideological purposes...

[dissent]

In all of this talk, being terrified of Hitler is no excuse for not coming out against what he was doing. Being afraid is when there is danger is natural, inaction by reason of fear is cowardice, and the Bible says the cowardly have their place in Hell. I guess that would be a key commentary on the Catholic church as an institution during that time, if you believe they weren't in favor of Hitler for their own political or ideological purposes...

You obviously didn't read any of the linkage I posted, since (a) the Catholic Church did speak out strongly against the Nazi's, and (b) among the linked references were a number of reports from people who were being hidden by the Church who were very happy that the Church did not go much farther than it did, because they feared this would have drawn more scrutiny on the Church, leading to their eventual discovery and likely deportation to the death camps. Real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback - 60 years later.

[CUDA]

CUDA, since I'm obviously clueless about homeschooling, tell me how parents would go about socializing their kids to other kids of different races, creeds, religions, gender and incomes? Don't tell me that parents would never have some type of bias towards at least one of these social classifications.

WHY??? so you can pick the fly ★■◆● out of the pepper and find something else that you perceive to be a failing in homeschooling???? I'm not going down that road. face it TC if a majority of home-schoolers were not Christian then you wouldn't have a problem with it. it's your disdain for those that have faith that makes you dislike the movement. and your perception of the movement is not the reality. the facts speak for themselves. homeschooling works. Studies proved homes-schoolers have better test scores and interact better in a social environment than public schooled kids. deal with it.

[callmeslick]

well.,I don't know how another feels, CUDA, but religion has little pertinence to the nature of my issues with homeschoolers. I did make the observation that many are homeschooled based on parental religious beliefs, but the core issue is lack of diverse viewpoints, both peer and adult. First off, adults. Most kids, by the time they graduate high school, have had at least 40 different adult educators, who serve, for part of a day, as both role models and evidence of a singular personal viewpoint, along with conveying knowledge, which can be standardized somewhat. Secondly, while you are correct, CUDA, to state that peers are the worst examples to learn from, they also can, when viewed as a group of peers, serve to reinforce oneself against fears common to the age group, they can provide both positive and negative learning experiences. Life with little peer contact and heavy adult contact makes for an adult who cannot relate to his/her peers as they lack the commonality of certain experiences. Overall, my opinion(and it is just that, I don't study education) is that homeschooling has value, but for limited cases, generally physical challenges. For most children, some form of peer-group setting(i.e, a school) is far superior in theory. Now, the issue is how to make theory work in practice.....

[Tunnelcat]

CUDA, since I'm obviously clueless about homeschooling, tell me how parents would go about socializing their kids to other kids of different races, creeds, religions, gender and incomes? Don't tell me that parents would never have some type of bias towards at least one of these social classifications.

WHY??? so you can pick the fly **** out of the pepper and find something else that you perceive to be a failing in homeschooling???? I'm not going down that road. face it TC if a majority of home-schoolers were not Christian then you wouldn't have a problem with it. it's your disdain for those that have faith that makes you dislike the movement. and your perception of the movement is not the reality. the facts speak for themselves. homeschooling works. Studies proved homes-schoolers have better test scores and interact better in a social environment than public schooled kids. deal with it.

CUDA, you're getting mad and not answering the question. Sure, I have a bias against drawing students out of public schools so that parents can teach their children what they think is "the right way", and that a percentage of those happen to be Christian. Sure, I have a bias against religion in general too. So? I have my opinions and you have yours. It's a free country. And yes, it is one of my nitpicks to have pay for Christians to privately school their kids with public funds from my taxes.

But you didn't answer HOW you, or other homeschooler parents would teach your child about all the other types of people in the world and HOW you would go about having your child interact with them just learn something about them. If you don't expose children to the harsh realities of life and the lives of others, you risk raising a bunch of little xenophobes that may be book smart and polite, but also DO NOT know how to relate to others that are from differing social statuses and classes.

And my other nitpick is that homeschooling and charter schooling is draining the lifeblood out of our Public Schools and creating a self-perpetuating disaster, mostly at the behest of conservatives. Typical Republican tactic is to underfund or neglect something that they don't like that's in the common interest of society, like the Public Schools or even the Post Office. Eeeeeeeew, those socialistic public schools and their liberal union teachers, they gotta go! Then when the schools have been gutted and kids perform poorly, they say; "See what we told you? Those public schools are a worthless commie experiment and you're better off with private-for-profit charter schools and homeschooling, much more Capitalistic and freedom-loving", even though the majority of people in this country HAVE to send their kids to public schools because they either can't afford charters or they aren't smart enough to teach their kids on their own. By the way, liberals have done their damage too, so they aren't blameless in this mess either. They tend to over-reach and over-spend when things get too fat and happy for them, forgetting that things never stay the same for long, times do get lean and that adjustments and sacrifices will always need to be made to survive.

I went to public school, I graduated high in my class and I went to college and graduated with a degree, before it became so expensive that students who now go to college are in hock for perpetuity and become slaves to the loan sharks of private industry. Linus Pauling went to Oregon State for free in the 1930's, when education was regarded as something that should be taxpayer funded for the common good, free and accessible to everyone. Privatizing education guts the funding for the public base, denies quite a few people the chance to get that good education and to have that chance to get somewhere in the world. But I guess Republicans don't like those who are smart, so destroy education and keep the masses dumb and in low-wage servitude to the private corporations of the world.

[Krom]

well.,I don't know how another feels, CUDA, but religion has little pertinence to the nature of my issues with homeschoolers. I did make the observation that many are homeschooled based on parental religious beliefs, but the core issue is lack of diverse viewpoints, both peer and adult. First off, adults. Most kids, by the time they graduate high school, have had at least 40 different adult educators, who serve, for part of a day, as both role models and evidence of a singular personal viewpoint, along with conveying knowledge, which can be standardized somewhat.

With the average child's attention span while stuck to a desk in an inflexible setting like a modern classroom, you might as well have all 40 people talking at the same time because either way most of what they say will be lost in the noise. When it comes to educators and role models, quantity is no substitute for quality and never will be.

Secondly, while you are correct, CUDA, to state that peers are the worst examples to learn from, they also can, when viewed as a group of peers, serve to reinforce oneself against fears common to the age group, they can provide both positive and negative learning experiences. Life with little peer contact and heavy adult contact makes for an adult who cannot relate to his/her peers as they lack the commonality of certain experiences.

This is complete nonsense, basically implying the extreme that you can't relate to someone unless they are just like you in both age and upbringing. Thinking this way is more likely to cut you off from others than help you relate to them. People don't need "commonality" and a virtually identical background to relate to each other, they need communication skills and imagination; but they don't teach that in school.

Overall, my opinion(and it is just that, I don't study education) is that homeschooling has value, but for limited cases, generally physical challenges. For most children, some form of peer-group setting(i.e, a school) is far superior in theory. Now, the issue is how to make theory work in practice.....

There are significant benefits for most children in some types of peer-group settings. However the current public school system has gone well out of its way to maintain the form of a peer-group while stripping out ALL of the benefits AND often amplifying all the disadvantages. For a peer-group setting of children to actually work, you would have to mix children of all different ages and abilities (something home schooling actually does do fairly often), rather than segregating them by age or ability level like the public school system currently does.

There is very little good you can learn from children your own age, and a significant chance of reinforcing bad behavior by interacting only with them. However there is much good that you can learn from both older and younger children, with the added benefit of such a setting would trend more towards inhibiting bad behavior. The current system of segregation by age or ability is only going to lead to alienating children of different age groups from each other; younger children will fear older children, and older children will feel only contempt for the younger children.

[Spidey]

Slick and tc’s reasoning against homeschooling sounds very much like the reasoning behind bussing, and as far as I am concerned, bussing is one of the worst travesties ever perpetrated on the school child.

The idea that people somehow end up malformed if they don’t have all of this interaction with other races and cultures, is in my opinion just not true.

Sure it probably has some merit, but it’s not some kind of great panacea.

And people still totally ignore the fact that public school is not the only place children get social interaction.

Damn…you want a list…

Church
Camp
Soccer Club
Boy Scouts
The Local Bizarre
The Mall
The Street Corner
4H Club
PAL
The Local Video Game Parlor
Sporting Events
ETC…ETC…ETC

Is that enough…or do you want me to keep pointing out the obvious?

And yea…what Krom said.

[CUDA]

it is one of my nitpicks to have pay for Christians to privately school their kids with public funds from my taxes.

you do realize that at least in the state of Oregon I am required to pay taxes that go to fund the public school system, and as a Homeschooler I paid Taxes for a service that I didn't use, don't you??

But you didn't answer HOW you, or other homeschooler parents would teach your child about all the other types of people in the world and HOW you would go about having your child interact with them just learn something about them. If you don't expose children to the harsh realities of life and the lives of others, you risk raising a bunch of little xenophobes that may be book smart and polite, but also DO NOT know how to relate to others that are from differing social statuses and classes.

and I have no intention to answer your question. you trying to find a reason why YOU don't like homeschooling doesn't matter to me, I have shown you with studies that Homeschooled children interact with others better than public school children. it make ZERO difference if you think otherwise because you would be wrong

[Top Gun]

it is one of my nitpicks to have pay for Christians to privately school their kids with public funds from my taxes.

you do realize that at least in the state of Oregon I am required to pay taxes that go to fund the public school system, and as a Homeschooler I paid Taxes for a service that I didn't use, don't you??

As far as I understand it, the reasoning behind that is that public schools are a service that (theoretically at least) benefit all of society by producing educated individuals, so therefore all of society should take on the financial burden of supporting it. That being said, my parents wound up having to double-dip on education costs, as they chose to send myself and my younger brothers to Catholic grade and high school. I definitely support the concept of school vouchers, since it helps relieve some of that burden and divert a portion of the funds to the schools actually educating the children in question.

[CUDA]

I have no problem with what you're saying. but to say that Homeschooled children are a drain on the resources of the public schools is flat out untrue

[Duper]

For the two years we homeschooled our daughter, we paid for EVERYTHING out of our own pockets: curriculum, books, tests (yea, you have to pass state tests) and any extracirricular activity we/she wanted to do to.

We could have done that with state money??! No one told me. ..not that would have used it anyways.

[roid]

I have no problem with what you're saying. but to say that Homeschooled children are a drain on the resources of the public schools is flat out untrue

can those here who are advocating homeschooling as superior, please answer this quick test for me:
Explain correctly:
- what a scientific theory is.
- what the theory of evolution is.
- why peer review is or isn't important to science and why.
- the nature of anthropomorphic climate change.

you see my point?
(this quiz was rhetorical if you're wondering, topics discussed in other threads)

I'm kindof reminded of that old study showing how those who watch FOX News tend to have by far the worst verifiably wrong misconceptions about the world. This is clearly the same crowd.
I'm coming at this from the standpoint that others are, of homeschooling being used as a bubble in which to raise unbalanced fundamentalist children - their educational experience being peppered with gaps of willful ignorance by their unbalanced fundamentalist parents (eg: see the 4 questions above).
We kinda DO have textbook examples of such people posting in this thread, i dunno if we're pussyfooting around that particular elephant-in-the-room. I don't mean offence to point it out, i just want to make sure we're all noticing this huge elephant here. Coz everytime someone in the thread says homeschooling is superior - i kindof have to try to stretch my neck out around the elephant to hear, the big homeschooled elephant who doesn't understand any of the topics i mentioned above.

[flip]

I'm calling bull★■◆● Roid. In all the scientific discussions on this board lately, I don't think not one piece of scientific data or findings was disputed, by anyone. I think more and more that you are just biased against anyone who professes faith in the metaphysical and intelligent design. A believer does not have to believe in an actual 6 day creation to see all the "events" that got us to where we are today. We have the benefit of everyone else's hard work in a lab or out in the field these days. All we have to do is take all their hard data and see where it takes our minds. I feel like you are the one in a bubble Roid, for the past 5-6 weeks there have been a few threads concerning science, physics in particular. Not one time did I ,or anyone else disagree to the "scientific findings", we just disagreed as to where our mind could go with that information

[CUDA]

I have no problem with what you're saying. but to say that Homeschooled children are a drain on the resources of the public schools is flat out untrue

can those here who are advocating homeschooling as superior, please answer this quick test for me:
Explain correctly:
- what a scientific theory is.
- what the theory of evolution is.
- why peer review is or isn't important to science and why.
- the nature of anthropomorphic climate change.

you see my point?
(this quiz was rhetorical if you're wondering, topics discussed in other threads)

you made a point??? lets ask the same question to public school kids. or better yet lets ask them some even simpler questions.
[youtube]M2fHQ9eULzk[/youtube] some of the brightest minds of their generation

blah blah blah.

[roid]

(oops, i was still editing this post when 2 ppl posted after me. i'll delete and repost it below)

[Tunnelcat]

it is one of my nitpicks to have pay for Christians to privately school their kids with public funds from my taxes.

you do realize that at least in the state of Oregon I am required to pay taxes that go to fund the public school system, and as a Homeschooler I paid Taxes for a service that I didn't use, don't you??

Why don't you use the services you pay for then? Instead of abandoning our schools, as a parent, you should be actively trying to help them.

But you didn't answer HOW you, or other homeschooler parents would teach your child about all the other types of people in the world and HOW you would go about having your child interact with them just learn something about them. If you don't expose children to the harsh realities of life and the lives of others, you risk raising a bunch of little xenophobes that may be book smart and polite, but also DO NOT know how to relate to others that are from differing social statuses and classes.

and I have no intention to answer your question. you trying to find a reason why YOU don't like homeschooling doesn't matter to me, I have shown you with studies that Homeschooled children interact with others better than public school children. it make ZERO difference if you think otherwise because you would be wrong

I gave you my reasons. Destroying something that's worked for years for millions of kids because you think that your solution is better because your Christian teachings are much more preferable than that of secularists and liberals may be fine for you, but it is certainly not a solution for everyone else without the means or parents with the smarts who need a good education.

And your little video only proves that undermining the public school system has worked spectacularly well for Republicans in their little war against all things government.

[flip]

You know the problem that video reveals is the core problem with education today. Instead of being taught critical thinking and problem solving skills, they are taught to memorize 1000's of answers. Only the most exceptional could be expected to remember all the "trivia"taught. You see them on Jeopardy every now and then =/. They havn't been trained to solve problems or think for themselves, they have been taught to regurgitate and even that's not working apparently.

[roid]

...

Cuda
By asking you to acknowledge/address problems with homeschooling, i'm not suggesting that there are no problems with any other type of schooling.
i want you to address the mentioned problems with homeschooling.
If you insist on inanely changing the subject everytime, then i'm not sure how what is happening here can any longer be defined as a conversation.

[CUDA]

it is one of my nitpicks to have pay for Christians to privately school their kids with public funds from my taxes.

you do realize that at least in the state of Oregon I am required to pay taxes that go to fund the public school system, and as a Homeschooler I paid Taxes for a service that I didn't use, don't you??

Why don't you use the services you pay for then? Instead of abandoning our schools, as a parent, you should be actively trying to help them.

you just dont want to understand do you???

But you didn't answer HOW you, or other homeschooler parents would teach your child about all the other types of people in the world and HOW you would go about having your child interact with them just learn something about them. If you don't expose children to the harsh realities of life and the lives of others, you risk raising a bunch of little xenophobes that may be book smart and polite, but also DO NOT know how to relate to others that are from differing social statuses and classes.

and I have no intention to answer your question. you trying to find a reason why YOU don't like homeschooling doesn't matter to me, I have shown you with studies that Homeschooled children interact with others better than public school children. it make ZERO difference if you think otherwise because you would be wrong

I gave you my reasons. Destroying something that's worked for years for millions of kids because you think that your solution is better because your Christian teachings are much more preferable than that of secularists and liberals may be fine for you, but it is certainly not a solution for everyone else without the means or parents with the smarts who need a good education.

you just dont want to understand do you? my solution IS better and the studies prove it.

And your little video only proves that undermining the public school system has worked spectacularly well for Republicans in their little war against all things government.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ya it's all those damn conservatives fault that Highschool kids can't learn BASICS. lets not blame the system. blame the conservatives, it much easier. you just don't want to understand do you

[CUDA]

...

Cuda
By asking you to address problems with homeschooling, i'm not suggesting that there are no problems with any other type of schooling.
i want you to address the mentioned problems with homeschooling.
If you insist on inanely changing the subject everytime, then i'm not sure how what is happening here can any longer be defined as a conversation.

so let me get this right!!!!! you want me to defend the use of a system that has a proven track record of being better able to educate and equip people do deal with society, than the current failed system.

Ya that makes total sense.

Try again

edit: it's not a conversation. you and TC don't care that homeschooling is a better way of education all you care about is nitpicking to find something that you can make an accusation against. just man up and admit it

[Tunnelcat]

No, conservatives defund a government system they don't like, liberals get too touchy feely and miss the point of why our kids aren't learning, and parents are too self absorbed and lazy to take make or demand the changes that are needed in the public school system. So the system collapses and only those with the means get an education. Survival of the fittest independent.

[roid]

Cuda a rational person is required to be able to acknowledge problems within their own positions, and see the world as more than just black/white.
Just because one thing has problems, doesn't mean other things don't. If one person's viewpoint is wrong, it doesn't mean their opposition is automatically right by default. Morely likely they are both to some extent wrong.

[CUDA]

No, conservatives defund a government system they don't like, liberals get too touchy feely and miss the point of why our kids aren't learning, and parents are too self absorbed and lazy to take make or demand the changes that are needed in the public school system. So the system collapses and only those with the means get an education. Survival of the fittest independent.

the means to get an education??? I'm assuming your referring to wealth. let me educate you farther. My Wife and I home-schooled all 8 of our kids. the last one just turned 18 and will finish up this year. during the first 20 years of our marriage I made less than 40 K a year single income. so don't give me that Means crap. it's called commitment to ones family, you either make it or you don't, where do your priorities lay

[Isaac]

lol, cuda.
[youtube]M2fHQ9eULzk

Best answer from your video:

"That one"

[CUDA]

Cuda a rational person is required to be able to acknowledge problems within their own positions, and see the world as more than just black/white.
Just because one thing has problems, doesn't mean other things don't. If one person's viewpoint is wrong, it doesn't mean their opposition is automatically right by default. Morely likely they are both to some extent wrong.

agreed HOWEVER the debate goes both ways. your attempting to ask questions that many College students might not be able to answer. maybe you should look at our governments wasteful expenditure of money (AGAIN) and see why public school student continually test lower than Homeschooled children in EVERY category
instead of worrying if a few homeschooled children are being taught religion at home. I will tell you from experience. that more often than not those that teach their children at home teach them to be free thinkers, because we are secure enough in our thought processes that we don't get shaken by a little challenge to them

[Tunnelcat]

No, conservatives defund a government system they don't like, liberals get too touchy feely and miss the point of why our kids aren't learning, and parents are too self absorbed and lazy to take make or demand the changes that are needed in the public school system. So the system collapses and only those with the means get an education. Survival of the fittest independent.

the means to get an education??? I'm assuming your referring to wealth. let me educate you farther. My Wife and I home-schooled all 8 of our kids. the last one just turned 18 and will finish up this year. during the first 20 years of our marriage I made less than 40 K a year single income. so don't give me that Means crap. it's called commitment to ones family, you either make it or you don't, where do your priorities lay

I gather you both are smart and motivated. What about the rest everyone else not so blessed? And was your wife working, or free to school your children? Tell 2 income parents that have to work all day they now have to spend their sleeping time to teach lessons to their kids so that they won't grow up stupid and poor.

[CUDA]

lol, cuda.
[youtube]M2fHQ9eULzk

Best answer from your video:

"That one"

ya I think most of those kids learnd about how many states we have from the same teacher that taught our President

[Spidey]

Homeschooling is just an option…lol

[roid]

edit: it's not a conversation. you and TC don't care that homeschooling is a better way of education all you care about is nitpicking to find something that you can make an accusation against. just man up and admit it

No Cuda.
i have not given my opinion on homeschooling in general, and i don't think i should have to. You are talking on the basis that this is all black and white, that if i'm not with USA then i'm with the terrorists. Stop that, that is not how i'm thinking. If my posts gave you the impression that my opinion was otherwise then i'm sorry there has been a misunderstanding.
The fact that you are losing your ★■◆● so majorly in this thread is telling me that this is quite personal to you, i don't want you to lose your ★■◆●, i want you to settle down.

If some mind-blowing is required to just get you to settle the ★■◆● down and talk like a rational person, then ok i'll leak this out: i think homeschooling is a good thing.
omg, how could i think that? you've been arguing against me the whole time, i'm on your side? no i'm not. While your side is "there is nothing wrong with my position, i'm the god-damned messiah" then no rational person could possibly agree with you.
Please, just... settle the hell down.

[CUDA]

No, conservatives defund a government system they don't like, liberals get too touchy feely and miss the point of why our kids aren't learning, and parents are too self absorbed and lazy to take make or demand the changes that are needed in the public school system. So the system collapses and only those with the means get an education. Survival of the fittest independent.

the means to get an education??? I'm assuming your referring to wealth. let me educate you farther. My Wife and I home-schooled all 8 of our kids. the last one just turned 18 and will finish up this year. during the first 20 years of our marriage I made less than 40 K a year single income. so don't give me that Means crap. it's called commitment to ones family, you either make it or you don't, where do your priorities lay

I gather you both are smart and motivated. What about the rest everyone else not so blessed? And was your wife working, or free to school your children? Tell 2 income parents that have to work all day they now have to spend their sleeping time to teach lessons to their kids so that they won't grow up stupid and poor.

well it seems to me they make a choice now didnt they. and ya you nailed me, we're both smart and motivated, and if it wasnt for our teaching ALL the other kids in that study we would never have gotten those good score

[Tunnelcat]

Oooh, that old conservative playbook. "We will preserve your "choice" of health care providers with our private plan instead of that evil socialist Obamacare plan. You just won't be able to afford what you want or need." Same principle with public schools.

[Tunnelcat]

well it seems to me they make a choice now didnt they. and ya you nailed me, we're both smart and motivated, and if it wasnt for our teaching ALL the other kids in that study we would never have gotten those good score

Pbfffffffft! That's all. Battery's going dead.

[CUDA]

edit: it's not a conversation. you and TC don't care that homeschooling is a better way of education all you care about is nitpicking to find something that you can make an accusation against. just man up and admit it

No Cuda.
i have not given my opinion on homeschooling in general, and i don't think i should have to. You are talking on the basis that this is all black and white, that if i'm not with USA then i'm with the terrorists. Stop that, that is not how i'm thinking. If my posts gave you the impression that my opinion was otherwise then i'm sorry there has been a misunderstanding.
The fact that you are losing your **** so majorly in this thread is telling me that this is quite personal to you, i don't want you to lose your ****, i want you to settle down.

If some mind-blowing is required to just get you to settle the **** down and talk like a rational person, then ok i'll leak this out: i think homeschooling is a good thing.
omg, how could i think that? you've been arguing against me the whole time, i'm on your side? no i'm not. While your side is "there is nothing wrong with my position, i'm the god-damned messiah" then no rational person could possibly agree with you.
Please, just... settle the hell down.

ya probably should go back to the beginning and re read the thread if thats what you think, it was stated that homeschooler were not as well educated and not as well equipped for life as public schoolers.
I produced just 1 of several studies proving that fallacy wrong, and I've spent the rest of the tread having people trying to drill deeper and deeper just to try and find something that they don't like about the movement so they can say AH HA I told you so, instead of doing what an open minded person would do and say YEP your correct. but that would be against their agenda ceste la vie

[CUDA]

Oooh, that old conservative playbook. "We will preserve your "choice" of health care providers with our private plan instead of that evil socialist Obamacare plan. You just won't be able to afford what you want or need." Same principle with public schools.

ya you cant stay away from blaming the conservatives for all the world problems can you funny how you transition it from Homeschooling to Obama care.

[flip]

Easy Cuda, easy.

[Krom]

roid and tc, I think you are significantly exaggerating the problems with homeschooling (if you can name any real ones in the first place). None of the homeschooling families I know of would even remotely come close to qualifying as "religious extremists" and I've never observed a homeschooling family shelter themselves from global warming or evolution. Before you ask, I've personally met hundreds of homeschooling families because I've been to homeschooling conferences and kept up with the movement in my state, so my sample size is quite significant. If a significant portion of the parents were really unbalanced and teaching the kids religiously warped viewpoints on reality, it would definitely show up in the results. But the results speak for themselves: home schooled students on average outperform public schooled students.

Also, I'd say that you don't have to be *that* smart to succeed at homeschooling, but you do have to be motivated. One of the things people often say about home schooling is they don't feel the parents are qualified to teach subjects because they aren't certified teachers/instructors with a specialized education for it. However, homeschooling is as much a learning experience for the parent as it is for the child, and that can actually help both to understand the subject better. It certainly beats learning it from a teacher who has been reduced to a walking, talking, specialized encyclopedia. And much more importantly, the experience teaches the child (and the parent) how to think and find answers that aren't readily available in the textbook or encyclopedia... Which I feel is one of the bigger reasons that homeschooling consistently outperforms public schooling.

[roid]

edit: it's not a conversation. you and TC don't care that homeschooling is a better way of education all you care about is nitpicking to find something that you can make an accusation against. just man up and admit it

No Cuda.
i have not given my opinion on homeschooling in general, and i don't think i should have to. You are talking on the basis that this is all black and white, that if i'm not with USA then i'm with the terrorists. Stop that, that is not how i'm thinking. If my posts gave you the impression that my opinion was otherwise then i'm sorry there has been a misunderstanding.
The fact that you are losing your **** so majorly in this thread is telling me that this is quite personal to you, i don't want you to lose your ****, i want you to settle down.

If some mind-blowing is required to just get you to settle the **** down and talk like a rational person, then ok i'll leak this out: i think homeschooling is a good thing.
omg, how could i think that? you've been arguing against me the whole time, i'm on your side? no i'm not. While your side is "there is nothing wrong with my position, i'm the god-damned messiah" then no rational person could possibly agree with you.
Please, just... settle the hell down.

ya probably should go back to the beginning and re read the thread if thats what you think, it was stated that homeschooler were not as well educated and not as well equipped for life as homeschooler.
I produced just 1 of several studies proving that fallacy wrong, and I've spent the rest of the tread having people trying to drill deeper and deeper just to try and find something that they don't like about the movement so they can say AH HA I told you so, instead of doing what an open minded person would do and say YEP your correct. but that would be against their agenda ceste la vie

I see.
i thought we all agreed that homeschooling gives better results, didn't we all agree on that? I thought we did. I mean - i can see how it would better results. I learn so much better when i'm teaching myself, so we have a valid process, and i can thus see how the end results would prove that out.

But do those test results also extend to the core understandings underpinning science and biology? I mean, i find it hard to understand how someone who gets the 4 rhetorical questions wrong could possibly have a valid underpinning in science, biology, rational critical thinking, these things.
I do honestly think that your explanation of this discrepancy is on the right track. The explanation could well be that these are subjects that are actually missing from the American secondary-school system. When i think about it - with your country's unfortunate international reputation of fundamentalism vs education, it really should have occured to me earlier.

I myself was publicly educated in a NON-AMERICAN school system, however my parents were fundamentalist Christians (crazy fundamentalist Christians). On my parent's request i was excused from many a science class, in hindsight i do remember being taught the scientific method and basic critical reasoning skills multiple times through school but it never really stuck because my mind was poisoned from the start (and the school system was probably too polite to tell my parents they were seriously hurting their child's education).
It was only after school, when i found the internet, when i found THIS VERY FORUM (i was a fundamentalist christian when i came here, anyone remember that?) that i was encouraged by others here to think critically about my beliefs and preconceptions. I am eternally grateful for those here who did that for me, who had the patience to pick through my lifetime of mental blocks and heal the damage. Unfortunately i think many of those people have since left the forum in the years since, so will likely never get this message.
Anyway, i guess i'll just send the <3 vibes out through the universe or something, it makes me feel better having said this.
I had to teach myself all of this stuff afterwards, with the internet mostly, to fill in the holes my upbringing left me with. (And damn learning it was fun!)

Woa got off-track there.
Ok so if the explanation is that these things are not required of the american school system, then i think it's somewhat damning of the american school system. As far as i know this isn't really a new subject, i hear people going on about the problems with the american school system all the time. Your video being a clear illustration of this much talked about topic.
If this is the problem, then ... that kindof means that your that "american homeschoolers do the best" is based on false test results. To me "do well" means have a valid education which can extend to more education like tertiary education, like university, like Masters and PhDs. But what you're saying means that that might not actually be the case.
I also want to acknowledge that this is a sidepoint, one that you may be inclined to think is nit-picking. It is kinda nit-picking. But it's something i'd like discussed, because it seems like a logical step from what you've said about homeschoolers doing well, but this being based on standards of education which are both non-tertiary, and AMERICAN non-tertiary (both of which might not be very good standards of education).
</nitpick>

[Foil]

Wow, clearly the topic of homeschooling has hit some nerves.

Let's see: We have a couple of homeschooling parents, a couple of folks who take serious issue with religious-based homeschooling, one who frequently works with homeschool families...

...Am I the only one here who was actually a homeschool student?

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[Note: I have some interesting perspectives on my homeschooling experience. I was once asked to participate in a discussion-panel of former homeschool students, and I made it a point to talk about the negatives as well as the postives. Hopefully I can make some time to post more about this tomorrow...]

[Krom]

...Am I the only one here who was actually a homeschool student?

Nope, make that two...

[CUDA]

...Am I the only one here who was actually a homeschool student?

Nope, make that two...

there wasn't much homeschooling in the 60's so I wasn't home schooled but I've done it with 8 kids, and the Wife is now teaching the Grandkids