The Vertigo Series Praise thread

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 12:45 pm

Pretty sure threads like this have already been made, but what the hell. I'm playing through Vertigo again and dammit, I'm nothing short of impressed. This campaign simply does so many things right... I'll point out what I liked about it, feel free to add what I could have missed.

1) Instead of going for an altogether new experience like Counterstrike, Vertigo instead opts for enhancing the D1 experience. This mission plays a lot like D1 very often.

2) Making heavy use of D1 textures which were all but forgotten in Counterstrike. And to great effect, the overall feel of the level is more naturalistic, just like in D1, while the new textures from D2 are used for variety and supplementation. All in all, the visual aspect of the levels has never been more tasteful.

3) Amazing level geometry connecting D2's notable experimentation with cube shapes and D1's love of grates and see-through/get-shot through designs. Also, many levels seem to be shout-outs to D1 levels, for example both level 5 and 6 feel a lot like D1 level 10 (although in different ways), level 9 feels a lot like level 12 of D1, level 10 like well, level 11 et caetera. Also, the boss' arena in level 7 is also greatly equivalent to the one from Descent (not to mention the level's number regarding the boss fight). The levels mentioned above thanks to their characteristics have that memorability and thrill which was prevalent in First Strike, but largely unfound in Counterstrike. It's very apparent that Parallax aimed to bring out the best out of the two games in Vertigo, as well as invoke D1 nostalgia, and largely succeeded in both of these endeavors.

4) Guest appearances of D1 robots as well as new, really menacing ones. A very nice and welcome addition, further completing the experience. Many robots are memorable, a keyword that apparently wasn't understood well enough at the time of designing most Counterstrike robots.

5) The predomintantly D2-looking levels are also notably better than their Counterstrike equivalents. It's hard to compare them in terms of theme, though, since many Vertigo levels are multi-themed or approach their theme loosely and with greater room for experimenting (mainly texture-wise). The only exceptions are some of the earlier water levels, which are fantastic in their own right and definitely beat the Quartzon levels.

6) In another nod to D1, the color of a robot has no bearing regarding what theme of level it will appear in. All robots are fine everywhere, which does spice up the gameplay (in addition to once again, uh.. reminding us of D1).

So all in all I think that Vertigo is, as far as the Parallax-designed levels go, the apogee of oldskool Descent experience.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:01 pm

Not to mention the scrolling wall textures that seem to have inspired... stuff... in many missions from EAF2 to Obsidian to TEW and beyond.
And you forgot the continuation of several of D1's robot "sets", though I disagree that the D2 bots were unmemorable. All the series' most memorable bots from my perspective were D2.
And the level 7 boss itself is kind of a mix between the two most "memorable" bosses from First Strike and Counterstrike, especially with his weapons.
But yap, the Vertigo Series was a great mission and definitely the best one Parallax made... now if only it was as long as D1...

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 23, 2012 4:11 pm

Oh yeah, you could say the length is an issue, like 7 more levels of similar quality would have been nice.

Some of the levels are so... shall we say "non-standard" that they barely remind me of Descent. But on the other hand it was Parallax showing us how creative they really are (talking about level 18 here) so I guess it's totally fine.

Descer · Post by **Descer** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:15 am

I don't (expect enemies (expect MAX, AARRGGHHH!!! & texture use). Some teke too long to clear, or has nasty puzles (like 2nd.) 1st boss is also too hard.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:07 am

Come on, the first boss isn't all that hard. He's got 2750 hp as opposed to Descent 1's first boss' 4000. He doesn't fire his Omega cannon very often either, it's like 1 blob per 4 smart missiles. He's pretty easy, the only problem is that he spawns those pesky class 2 heavy drillers.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:12 am

With helix he goes down in, like, five seconds, and there's plenty of cloak and invuln in the area if you're observant enough to find it, patient enough to save it, and skilled enough to use it. He's easier than most reactor rooms -- but most D2 bosses tend to be that.
I thought it was more interesting that every Descent has a Parallax (or Outrage)-made mission with a boss on level 7.
MAX was pretty mean but he was only in, like, five levels, maybe a few more. And it made for an interesting challenge -- especially when you pair him with SPIKE and you get a two-robot ice boss.

And that forcefield trap on level 2 was awesome. Because I figured it out so fast and then I got to watch people on Youtube struggle and then run away spooked and I was laughing -- the widdle wabbits...
I just gave myself an even eviler idea for a trap. But it would have to be scary enough to make most players run away in order to work so it's probably not possible.

And level 18 was the only level in Vertigo that reminded me of a specific level in D1 -- 16.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:04 pm

Well, the bosses of Descent 2 are actually markedly more difficult than the D1 ones - but the difference becomes apparent on Ace and up. On Insane many of these big boys waste you before you get one hit in. Trust me. The worst thing is mercury missiles - you need to really be an ace pilot to be able to dodge them, and I'm not talking about just the bosses. The Seeker is able of ending you immediately, or lowering your shields painfully at the very least. Dude's missiles are undodgably fast and he also fires them in prediction of your movements, so whether you're dodging or not you're toast. Now that's what I call evil O_o

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:15 pm

I've played the Descent Maxiumum campaign and the first 10 levels of Vertigo (I think -- definitely past level 7 because I remember having trouble in level 8's reactor room) on Ace, and the bosses still didn't give me much trouble -- except for Icy and the deluded shaker dude. Even on the ice boss I never died or had to reload.
And I started a playthrough of D2 Counterstrike on Ace before I got bored, I got up to level 13, I think, and again, I never died or had to reload -- I remember enjoying the level 12 boss fight a lot. Most reactor rooms gave me more trouble than the bosses because there were so many more enemies to keep track of -- any boss in question may be big and bad, but there's only one of him.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:24 am

Well in that case you're a better pilot than I

But what you said isn't consistent with what you said earlier, about being afraid of fusion hulks. IMO even several fusion hulks provide nowhere near as big a challenge as a D2 boss.

And the Water boss took me several deaths to beat on Insane, his Mercs were impossibly fast and strong -__- Perhaps less so on Ace, but Insane is the last impression I remember.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:05 am

Xfing wrote:...But what you said isn't consistent with what you said earlier, about being afraid of fusion hulks...

Why does that have to be a rational fear? They kind of look scary and shoot scary guns and are purple.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:29 pm

Alter-Fox wrote:
Xfing wrote:...But what you said isn't consistent with what you said earlier, about being afraid of fusion hulks...
Why does that have to be a rational fear? They kind of look scary and shoot scary guns and are purple.

I stand corrected, they are indeed scary. Not as much as their big daddy, though. Sometimes I wish I was as impressionable as I was as a kid again. I could relive those moments of exquisite terror.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:38 pm

Oh BTW, it's not really a question of skill when it comes to bosses (especially the water boss) in Parallax missions. It's a question of finding all the hidden cloaks and invulns and using them well

. In user missions some people like to make them more challenging, which is welcome.
I remember going up against the water boss on Insane on an attempted playthrough where I had a whole lot of trouble (and only got that far because I was using a solo co-op game

). The Wet Insulting Narcissist was the only part of the game that gave me no trouble at all because of the amplifier powerups EVERYWHERE.
I personally like the way the Ice Boss was designed to make cloaks more valuable at a point in the game where invulns were getting more and more important, especially for the two bosses before it. It put a neat spin on things.

DarkFlameWolf · Post by **DarkFlameWolf** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:01 am

Bosses as a whole in the Descent series are damn hard. Take away your cloaks and your invuls and you get bosses that are more than your typical faire challenge.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 4:55 am

DarkFlameWolf wrote:Bosses as a whole in the Descent series are damn hard. Take away your cloaks and your invuls and you get bosses that are more than your typical faire challenge.

Well yeah, and even worse when you run outta supplies. That happened to me on level 25 of The Enemy Within, and I was helpless against that boss who needed to be hit from the behind.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:40 am

The Ice Boss in D2 is just ★■◆●ing demonic. All you get against it is one cloak, and if you're fast maybe half an invulnerability. Thats not even close to enough to take it out.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:22 pm

You also get a huge tunnel network to hide out in.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:48 pm

Doesn't really help if the moment you pop your head out you get flashed, cant see anything, and your screen is still white when you inevitably respawn at the start.

Sitting back and shooting him from inside the tunnel is all well and good, but there is literally no way to take control of the fight and hit him head on. None. You would need several more cloaking devices, at best, to be able to defeat him in way besides sitting in those tunnels and sniping him when he has generously decided to sit in one of the cubes visible from that position.

And Megas are useless against him. They never track the boss. They ALWAYS track some piece of crap bot that hes spawned. The only way you can possibly get a hit with a mega is to clear all the fluff out around him and hit him pretty much point blank, before he teleports away.

Seriously, so much of the stuff in Descent 2 and 3 is just so ridiculously unbalanced that its like they didn't even bother to test this stuff before it shipped.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 9:08 pm

I don't have any problem hitting him with megas from the tunnel... In XL, Rebirth, or even Dosbox.
Every time I've fought him he's gone down very fast. And this is on hotshot and higher difficulties. Interestingly I had a lot more trouble with him on Trainee and Rookie.

He's a lot harder in Descent Maximum because you don't have the tunnel network and the boss room is designed in a way where you need to let the way into it lock behind you.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:03 pm

I think he was cake for me in Maximum for some reason. I dont recall having any problems with him at all there.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:11 am

I recently rediscovered a demo of me taking out the level 16 boss with nothing but gauss and mercs before the cloak ran out. There's a lot of room for things to go wrong though.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:51 am

Sirius wrote:I recently rediscovered a demo of me taking out the level 16 boss with nothing but gauss and mercs before the cloak ran out. There's a lot of room for things to go wrong though.

I believe there's a demo on youtube of a guy who managed by using Vulcan alone. Not sure about missiles, though.

And Alterfox, how did you manage to configure your dosbox to allow you to play descent 2? It always screams for CDs when I try to do that.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 8:21 am

By buying it from GoG so I'd never have to worry about lost CDs, which are more of a problem for me...

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:33 pm

Xfing wrote:
Sirius wrote:I recently rediscovered a demo of me taking out the level 16 boss with nothing but gauss and mercs before the cloak ran out. There's a lot of room for things to go wrong though.
I believe there's a demo on youtube of a guy who managed by using Vulcan alone. Not sure about missiles, though.

And Alterfox, how did you manage to configure your dosbox to allow you to play descent 2? It always screams for CDs when I try to do that.

Make an image of your descent 2 CD and use something like daemon tools to mount it as a virtual CD in windows, then use dosbox's CD emulation options to point the dos box CD drive to the virtual CD drive letter as your CD. Its a variation of the mount command.

That got Descent 2 working for me in DOS Box.

And Sirius, what difficulty was that in? No way in heck it was insane, because the time needed on target with guass and mercs is longer than it takes to shoot at least 20 mercury missiles.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:57 am

...lol it's rookie, 15 unit energy! That might explain a few things. Think the flash missile speed by itself would make a difference on high skill levels.
Wonder how old it is, too - it's been years since I played anything on that skill level.

What I don't remember is whether difficulty scales boss life at all.

...experiment: yes, it most definitely does. The boss doesn't die fast enough on insane for the same trick to work, and the weapon damage is mostly the same (with a minor downgrade for gauss). There are nearby cloaked diamond claws you can harvest cloaks from (if you're very careful), though.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:32 pm

The problem is that, even while cloaked, the flash missiles effect is so large on insane that even if he misses you, the things just gonna hit the wall and blind you anyway. So even when cloaked its not really safe to just hammer him with guass and mercs unless youre distant enough that he cant fire back.

And I need to test that in Dos Descent 2, see if robots still cant fire at extreme distances, or if thats something resulting from rebirth code changes or something.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:35 pm

And does anyone have the bosses HP amounts on insane and how much each primary weapon does per bolt of damage?

I did a lot of experiments with the level 20 boss last night, and assuming that quad level 6 does exactly 50 points of damage total, he should have right around 5,500 hit points. I have shot totals for the other energy based primaries, but I would like to know the exact hitpoint and damage tables, and the numbers on the old Moons Descendarium site seem to be way off on a number of things.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:46 am

Blinding wasn't too much of a problem, I could still see well enough to know what I was shooting at; but couldn't kill him before everything wore off.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:10 pm

To say something on topic: Recently, I've played through Vertigo once more, and couldn't help noticing one thing: Vertigo's in LOVE with the black obsidian texture. It's used probably in every single level of the pack. And these levels really do show what a versatile texture that is. Its only problems are that it's a pain in the ass to align (and Parallax didn't bother, most of the time), as well as the fact that there's no secret door to go with it. But it's great anyway. Strangely, I didn't see it in Counterstrike all that much, I can't remember if at all.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:46 pm

I always thought it was more of an oily black than an obsidian black, but I noticed that too. I've used it more as an overlay for lava than a rock texture on its own, but I agree that it really gives the levels more of a sense of diversity in environment that goes above and beyond Counterstrike.

Other nice touches to further mix and match the environment included using that grasslike dark green texture in the otherwise desertlike Level 16 and 17, or combining water and lava in Level 4 and 7. In little ways, those levels do feel somewhat like new worlds.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:17 pm

NaphthaTurisas wrote:I always thought it was more of an oily black than an obsidian black, but I noticed that too. I've used it more as an overlay for lava than a rock texture on its own, but I agree that it really gives the levels more of a sense of diversity in environment that goes above and beyond Counterstrike.

Other nice touches to further mix and match the environment included using that grasslike dark green texture in the otherwise desertlike Level 16 and 17, or combining water and lava in Level 4 and 7. In little ways, those levels do feel somewhat like new worlds.

Yeah, exactly that. Probably the black stone texture is the single adhesive that reminds us that it's all going on on a single planet, or system. (The Counterstrike systems were single planets, at least). Even though the Vertigo levels made use of the themed .PIG files from D2 instead of going all groupa.PIG, none of the levels can be considered a classic example of any particular theme, like the Counterstrike levels were. Vertigo levels transcend themes, they follow a much more unrestricted approach.

That makes them perhaps slightly less memorable texture-wise than the D2:CS levels, much in the fashion of D1. But they make up for it with architecture, big time.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:07 am

The Counterstrike systems weren't solar systems, they were planetary systems probably all in Zeta Aquilae.

At least that makes more sense than having six solar systems named after the environment of one planet, which always just happens to be the planet you're going to.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:12 am

True, but the presence of lava on Europa and Pluto in Descent 1 makes me think the designers weren't giving it that much consideration.

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:31 pm

It would appear that these were indeed planets. Probably orphan ones, though I'm not sure.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:59 am

Nah, I think you're reading too much into it. That headcanon might make more sense, but again, I don't think the designers did that much research into how things work in space, otherwise D1 would not have any lava from Level 12 on.

Or maybe Vertigo shows that they realized how silly Counterstrike's idea would be, with each star system falling under one single biome compared to at least one type of environment per planet. At least Descent 3 improved on that further with the exterior areas, where the overall looks were generally better (except for oddities like green-and-purple Phobos) and having the sunlight from Mercury actually harm you was a great touch. What I'll definitely give Descent 3 is that it looks great, but I don't think it plays so great, which was definitely more important and just another thing missions like Vertigo got right.

EDIT: A point I wanted to make about the robots in Vertigo while I'm at it. By that mission, the designers seemed to hit the right balance between robots that blend into the environment and robots that fight well enough to suit the environment. Counterstrike took the color scheme matchups a bit too far, a problem Maximum tried to fix in certain areas (such as PEST's still appearing on occasion in the Limefrost Spiral and Puuma Sphere, along with regular appearances by BPER Bots and Diamond Claws throughout the latter).

It's true that Counterstrike had a couple exceptions with the LOU Guards in Brimspark as the most notable, but generally when a differently colored robot appeared in a certain chapter it came off as feeling weird and unnatural. But in D1, things were the opposite with robots picked primarily on ability (sometimes to great effect or with great theming in mind, like in Levels 12 and 15) and in most levels, there weren't as many robots that simply blended in with the scenery like in D2. But Vertigo had a great balance to gave almost every new robot and almost every Counterstrike robot the right amount of facetime.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:53 am

In my WDWP I'm starting to think Vertigo gave Seeker too much face time.
I'm absolutely dreading SPIKE on ace.

ThugsRook · Post by **ThugsRook** » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:44 am

Alter-Fox wrote:In my WDWP I'm starting to think Vertigo gave Seeker too much face time.
I'm absolutely dreading SPIKE on ace.

feel free to completely remove Seeker from the game

i love Vertigo, but the bots are annoying as all hell.
thankfully there is a very easy way to revert the V-bots back to their D1 counterparts in the MN2 file ~ which makes for a very interesting game.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:41 pm

The balance wasn't completely perfect, don't get me wrong. The Seeker is kind of fun to fight so I didn't mind it that much (as of Level 17 of my own challenge playthrough, it's only killed me twice), but I actually feel like the Fervid and the Canary didn't show up enough. Both sort of ran into the issue of having the same weapons as a Counterstrike robot but higher HP, so that might be why Parallax had a hard time placing them. I would've also liked to see more of the Boarshead and Green Spider by maybe adding the Green Spider to Level 17 instead of the Cloaked Hulk and introducing the Boarshead in Level 18.

There's also tons of good robot combos that were strangely missing. The Medium Hulk and LOU Guard both appeared on Level 5, but never side-by-side. The Smelter I was reduced to a cameo and not put alongside the Smelter II at all, and I would've welcomed the Class 1 Heavy Driller as a foil to the Class 3 Heavy or the Boarshead. And the MAX and SPIKE only appeared together on Level 18 but, as far as I know, never actually were combined into a mini-Ice Boss. But overall, there was a nice amount of exceptions to the color scheme rule that never seemed to exceed itself (although there were some real oddities like Ice Spindles on Level 18!).

Xfing · Post by **Xfing** » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:54 pm

As for robot balance, Vertigo still obviously favored its own and D2 bots. The D1 bots were mostly treated as guest appearances, one (or two at most) per level. In order to truly balance out the robots, one would have to pool all of them together and place them according to difficulty - not looking at whether they're D1, D2 or Vertigo-exclusive. Obviously, this probably wouldn't have given the Vertigo robots their deserved (or should I rather say "intended") spotlight.

Alter-Fox · Post by **Alter-Fox** » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:18 pm

Come to think of it I don't remember seeing smelter 1 at all in vertigo. Cloaked a few times, maybe...
In my playthrough I've only got up to level 11 so far. And only level 1 to level 4 are up on youtube. I should get level 5 up soon. It's the first one where I use a song I wrote! (Dub rap with a trombone! Set in the Odd Canon! From the perspective of the universe's most awesome ocelot! Who is also in a short story! Which involves a fox-weasel thing with immense eldrich power! And eleMentals! And a broken zipper in the fabric of reality!)

Come to think of it a lot of the things I like about Vertigo are also things I like about Doom 3's expansion.

Naphtha · Post by **Naphtha** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:24 am

The Smelter I was only in Level 13, mostly in the area around the blue key. It would've been nice to maybe use it in Level 5 alongside the Smelter II's official debut to make the differences stand out a bit more...

Feel free to take notes on interesting combos for D1.5, Xfing.

Another positive about the placement, though, was that robots introduced earlier on sometimes stuck it out for most of the game, where Counterstrike tended to shoo them out well before the end. The Class 3 Heavy Driller lasted from Level 3 until Level 18, the Seeker did reappear on the final level and LOU Guards were a bit more common than in Counterstrike, but nowhere near as irritating as the Super Hulks in First Strike. Even the difficulty style seems to fall somewhere between D1 trying to use certain robots as a death sentence and Counterstrike trying to wear you down gradually.