Beyond Waterboarding

[woodchip]

Many of you here claimed dismay offer the tactics of water boarding even though it was used rarely and against foreign terrorist. Well it seems we no longer need such tactics as we have something far better. We simply use drones to throw missiles at them and do so quite effectively. No worries about collateral damage though as it seems to be hard to get pictures of the aftermath.

Now here comes the good part. Eric "Fast and Furious" Holder has determined it is Ok to use these drone attack against Americans. All this without due process. Now before you jump up and say they probably deserve it, just remember all the due process being used on captured terrorists. Now if Glorius Leader doesn't like someone I guess he can just get Holder the Furious to mark him as a terrorist and we can Hellfire the poor sod into oblivion. Sounds good to me as I think of all the taxpayer dollars saved on atty. fees and court costs:

“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which is suing to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/20 ... icans?lite

Notice how my link is not some right wing blog? Notice how the ACLU does not like it.

[callmeslick]

of all the policies of the Obama administration, this is the one I am most at odds with. It seems that the one bipartisan issue that goes forward in the US for the past 20 or so years, is the steady erosion of due process and privacy rights.

[Will Robinson]

of all the policies of the Obama administration, this is the one I am most at odds with. It seems that the one bipartisan issue that goes forward in the US for the past 20 or so years, is the steady erosion of due process and privacy rights.

That is because "bi-partisan" in washington politics today means something which doesn't compromise my party and does increase our authority.

They all suck because we let them turn the system into one that promotes people that suck. As long as everyone thinks they know which half sucks less they will all continue to suck.

[callmeslick]

I read a book a year or two back(will try and dig it up on the shelves here, because I forget the title and author) which laid out a timeline for steady erosion of personal liberties and corresponding building of layers of governmental secrecy. It took the onset of the Manhatten project as the starting point and made both a convincing, and chilling case.

[Tunnelcat]

And just where did all this new presidential power come from? Why, the Patriot Act, that supreme idea of protect all-of-us-from-the-modern-day-boogey-man, the terrorist. Who brought us the Patriot Act? Why Bush and Cheney. So if all you Obama haters don't like the way he and his justice department are "interpreting" the law, which, by the way is way too much power in my opinion, you all should've that thought of that little problem way back when you happily let Bush cement in stone, new more tyrannical presidential powers. So suck it up. Once power is given, it's very hard to take away.

The signs were there back then, but people were too psychotic from 9/11 to think of the consequences, except for the crazy lefties.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020607.html

http://www.schneier.com/essay-102.html

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... tion=false

And now we have this. Happy now? Your favorite son, Bush, started it, and surprise, Obama is now abusing it. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... -now-what/

[Will Robinson]

And just where did all this new presidential power come from? Why, the Patriot Act, that supreme idea of protect all-of-us-from-the-modern-day-boogey-man, the terrorist. Who brought us the Patriot Act? Why Bush and Cheney. So if all you Obama haters don't like the way he and his justice department are "interpreting" the law, which, by the way is way too much power in my opinion, you all should've that thought of that little problem way back when you happily let Bush cement in stone, new more tyrannical presidential powers. So suck it up. Once power is given, it's very hard to take away.

The signs were there back then, but people were too psychotic from 9/11 to think of the consequences, except for the crazy lefties.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20020607.html

http://www.schneier.com/essay-102.html

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... tion=false

And now we have this. Happy now? Your favorite son, Bush, started it, and surprise, Obama is now abusing it. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... -now-what/

And since you think you have identified which half sucks less and focus on that they will all continue to suck because for everyone of you on the one side there is another on the other side. Step off the plantation and look around, you might see the forest through the trees.

[callmeslick]

frankly, I think the whole thing goes back WAY farther than the Patriot act.

[woodchip]

Funny how the left decried water-boarding as torture. I'm waiting for someone to call death by drones, with absolutely no judicial oversight...murder. Some of you will also remember the long discussions about phone tapping and how the govt. needs to have a warrant to do so. So what does Baghdad Jim Carnie, Obama's spokesman, have to say about this?:

“These strikes are legal, they are ethical and they are wise,” Carney said.

Well Jimbo, once you start offing American Citizens just on one mans approval, you open a Pandora box of things the govt will start doing. Of course Jim you know where your slice of bread is butter and you will suk nuts to keep the bread coming.

[Tunnelcat]

And since you think you have identified which half sucks less and focus on that they will all continue to suck because for everyone of you on the one side there is another on the other side. Step off the plantation and look around, you might see the forest through the trees.

Unfortunately, the forest is gone and both sides were stupid enough or coldly calculated enough to make it happen. But one side, Republican, has not only cut down the trees, they've stripped off the topsoil and sold it to the highest bidder so that no trees can ever be planted, all in the name of nation security. The Dems only cut down the trees because they're bought off idiots and were told it was good to cut down the trees, all in the name of national security.

[flip]

of all the policies of the Obama administration, this is the one I am most at odds with. It seems that the one bipartisan issue that goes forward in the US for the past 20 or so years, is the steady erosion of due process and privacy rights.

Don't forget this one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

I read a book a year or two back(will try and dig it up on the shelves here, because I forget the title and author) which laid out a timeline for steady erosion of personal liberties and corresponding building of layers of governmental secrecy. It took the onset of the Manhatten project as the starting point and made both a convincing, and chilling case.

And yet you would agree to leave us with nothing but sticks and stones to defend ourselves! I don't see how you can compartmentalize your opinions from topic to topic.

[woodchip]

Posse Comitatus has been quietly maneuvered around by...ta da, the Dept. of Homeland Security. This is one agency you all better keep a close eye on as you'll remember I posted prior about them buying up 1 billion rounds of ammo and most recently the 7000 assault rifles. With over 200,000 people in the Dept., they have the makings of a rather formidable para-military force without any of posse comitatus restrictions. Hopefully I'm just tin hatting here.

[callmeslick]

of all the policies of the Obama administration, this is the one I am most at odds with. It seems that the one bipartisan issue that goes forward in the US for the past 20 or so years, is the steady erosion of due process and privacy rights.

Don't forget this one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

I'm not sure how you find this pertinent.....care to explain?

And yet you would agree to leave us with nothing but sticks and stones to defend ourselves! I don't see how you can compartmentalize your opinions from topic to topic.

oh, please...to return to woody's original article, what do you have lying around that would neutralize a heat-seeking missle launched at your sorry ass from a drone? You may as well have sticks and stones, because it's likely you won't be able to legally obtain anything that is effective whatsoever.

[woodchip]

Once again slick I must remind you, if it gets to the point our govt. is using drones and missiles to kill us, I suspect there will be any number of National Guard armories that will mysteriously be left unguarded. Let us hope it never gets that far.

On a brighter note the following should be noted (al-Awlaki's son was just 16 by, if I read the NBC report correctly he was killed by a drone strike.)

"Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan were killed by a missile strike in Yemen on Sept. 30, 2011, while al-Awlaki’s son, Abdulrahman, was killed in the country just weeks later."

Now what did Robert "Glib" Gibbs have to say about it?:

"I would suggest that you should have a far more responsible father if they are truly concerned about the well-being of their children," former White House spokesperson Robert Gibbs said to a gaggle of reporters in October. "I don't think becoming an al-Qaeda jihadist terrorist is the best way to go about doing your business."

So there you have it. The Obama's administrations view is one of the "sins of the father" are also those of his children. So in the future I suppose we will see not only Americans being killed but their off-spring as well. Bad seed and all that.

Oh and the link so you lefties don't think I'm getting this from some right wing blog.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02 ... versy?lite

[flip]

of all the policies of the Obama administration, this is the one I am most at odds with. It seems that the one bipartisan issue that goes forward in the US for the past 20 or so years, is the steady erosion of due process and privacy rights.

Don't forget this one!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act

I'm not sure how you find this pertinent.....care to explain?

And yet you would agree to leave us with nothing but sticks and stones to defend ourselves! I don't see how you can compartmentalize your opinions from topic to topic.

oh, please...to return to woody's original article, what do you have lying around that would neutralize a heat-seeking missle launched at your sorry ass from a drone? You may as well have sticks and stones, because it's likely you won't be able to legally obtain anything that is effective whatsoever.

I don't really even know how to argue with you anymore, you seem oblivious or intentionally obtuse. Maybe tomorrow

[vision]

Once again slick I must remind you, if it gets to the point our govt. is using drones and missiles to kill us, I suspect there will be any number of National Guard armories that will mysteriously be left unguarded.

And hopefully some drone pilots who understand what is going on turn those same drones on the elected officials who made this BS policy a reality. I think this is beyond the typical left/right crap arguments on this board. No one likes it. I'm strongly against it, as well as a number of things that the Obama administration has either created or failed to eliminate from previous administrations.

[Tunnelcat]

And then we have to worry that our technology will fall into enemy hands and be reverse engineered, which appears to be the case with our "stealth drone" in Iran.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... -spy-drone

[SilverFJ]

It's not Obama or Bush, it's the whole deal, they're all on the same side, setting each other up for victory over the populace.

[Sergeant Thorne]

And hopefully some drone pilots who understand what is going on turn those same drones on the elected officials who made this BS policy a reality.

Gee, vision. What did you do? Eat some red meat? You almost sound like you're coming around.

(Are you quite sure this wouldn't just make the world a more violent place?)

[vision]

And hopefully some drone pilots who understand what is going on turn those same drones on the elected officials who made this BS policy a reality.

Gee, vision. What did you do? Eat some red meat? You almost sound like you're coming around.

(Are you quite sure this wouldn't just make the world a more violent place?)

Never said they had to shoot, or shoot to kill. Might be a nice wake up call if a politician saw one outside their office window. One of the reasons the drones are horrid isn't just the collateral damage, but the desensitizing. The pilots literally see humans as pixels on a screen -- it's like a video game. I think the legislators are also desensitized to the reality of the situation because we don't lose soldiers. There are no faces attached to the combat, no stories of lives cut short by military service. Drone attack "just happen somewhere." Think of facing one of them as a lesson in empathy.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I agree.