[Split] On perceptions in Russia

[Will Robinson]

...
You know, there is a very interesting feature . On the one hand, if I gather a lot of people who support me against the unjust actions of the authorities , I am as an ordinary citizen can change federal law . Or create a new law . It will be adopted during the month. The Russian government knows this, and they are very afraid of the people's wrath . The sides of the other , if the discontent of the people will not be sufficient for me zavedut criminal case under false pretenses , and I will die in prison after a lot of humiliation and torture. It seems to me that in this respect the U.S. is not much different from Russia .

I think you don't know as much about America as you think you do!

If, in America, you gather a lot of support against unjust actions you may effect a change as you say you can in Russia.

However, if you speak out against the government here and fail to gather enough support, the government WILL NOT 'put you in prison under false charges where you will suffer humiliation and torture'. Unless, of course, your speech also includes classified information that you were sworn to keep secret...

There is much less of a risk to speak out in America.
In America I can say Obama is a complete criminal. I can publish books about it and even if it is untrue I will be safe.
If I try that in Russia about Putin....not so safe.

[sigma]

...
You know, there is a very interesting feature . On the one hand, if I gather a lot of people who support me against the unjust actions of the authorities , I am as an ordinary citizen can change federal law . Or create a new law . It will be adopted during the month. The Russian government knows this, and they are very afraid of the people's wrath . The sides of the other , if the discontent of the people will not be sufficient for me zavedut criminal case under false pretenses , and I will die in prison after a lot of humiliation and torture. It seems to me that in this respect the U.S. is not much different from Russia .

I think you don't know as much about America as you think you do!

If, in America, you gather a lot of support against unjust actions you may effect a change as you say you can in Russia.

However, if you speak out against the government here and fail to gather enough support, the government WILL NOT 'put you in prison under false charges where you will suffer humiliation and torture'. Unless, of course, your speech also includes classified information that you were sworn to keep secret...

There is much less of a risk to speak out in America.
In America I can say Obama is a complete criminal. I can publish books about it and even if it is untrue I will be safe.
If I try that in Russia about Putin....not so safe.

Well what to say here . It's very bad for America, the things that you describe. If the power in Russia is ready to destroy any citizen who does not agree with the actions of the authorities , this means that the people in Russia has much more power than the current government. This is true. Here, from the spark of domestic conflict in a few days can be a revolution . Therefore, the power in Russia is always very hard and suppresses dangerous political activity of citizens . It was always in Russia . But I was horrified to think that in the United States , any citizen can openly criticize U.S. power in the media and on the Internet . The U.S. government is not afraid of people's opinions ? In my opinion it is very alarming . The U.S. government does not care so much for the view of the American people is that they allow you to say anything about the power ? Most likely , American politicians are fully confident that you will be a lot of talk, but nothing will really do. Hmmm....

[Foil]

The U.S. government is not afraid of people's opinions ?

On the contrary, the U.S. government is very afraid of public opinion. They are constitutionally constrained from taking action solely because of expressed opinion, and elected officials know very well that they can be voted out.

From an American perspective, this means that the people have immense power, and it means that elected politicians are very careful (and often deceitful) about what they do. Of course, this also means that U.S. policy shifts very easily when public opinion changes, for good or bad.

[Tunnelcat]

sigma, you've never told me your opinions about Tchaikovsky? Do you hate his works or hate him for being a gay Russian?

[sigma]

sigma, you've never told me your opinions about Tchaikovsky? Do you hate his works or hate him for being a gay Russian?

As long as I can remember, I've never thought about Tchaikovsky is gay or not. Americans have been actively discussing the problem of blue in the press. Then the Americans began to investigate which of the Russian composers was gay. If it were not for the Americans, I would never even know that Tchaikovsky is gay. You already got me with his dirty fagots. Let the gays live in America, OK?
Although I very much doubt that Tchaikovsky would be a great composer, had he lived in America. You got a gay - it's the dregs of society. In Russia - gays is creative elite. There used to be an elite. While the Americans have not got into Russian with their sexual concerns. Now the creative elite in the Russian blue - it's just a fagots. Thank you USA!

[Top Gun]

...sigma, what the ★■◆● is wrong with you?

[Will Robinson]

....
The U.S. government is not afraid of people's opinions ? In my opinion it is very alarming . The U.S. government does not care so much for the view of the American people is that they allow you to say anything about the power ? Most likely , American politicians are fully confident that you will be a lot of talk, but nothing will really do. Hmmm....

When you said "most likely" you made a horrible assumption.
Your perspective may be the reason you didn't think it through and reach a much more likely conclusion.

See Foil's response for a great illustration of why you got it wrong.

[Isaac]

I don't need anyone telling me to "step outside".

You confuse "need" with "want".

[callmeslick]

But I was horrified to think that in the United States , any citizen can openly criticize U.S. power in the media and on the Internet . The U.S. government is not afraid of people's opinions ?

I think you are overlooking a couple things here. First, the idea of free expression of ideas was part of our system from the outset. Second, you fail to account for the massive diversity of thought, which tends not to bring monolithic public thinking. Look at this forum as a microcosm. Woody and Cuda, for instance, think almost completely opposite sometimes from, say, Vision and I. We are a diverse nation, and free expression of opinion sometimes leads to exchange of important ideas(whether the other side adopts those ideas or not). That is healthy for a people, and very healthy for a government to be constantly in question, as that adds an element of responsiveness to the populace above and beyond the election process.

[Tunnelcat]

sigma, you've never told me your opinions about Tchaikovsky? Do you hate his works or hate him for being a gay Russian?

As long as I can remember, I've never thought about Tchaikovsky is gay or not. Americans have been actively discussing the problem of blue in the press. Then the Americans began to investigate which of the Russian composers was gay. If it were not for the Americans, I would never even know that Tchaikovsky is gay. You already got me with his dirty fagots. Let the gays live in America, OK?
Although I very much doubt that Tchaikovsky would be a great composer, had he lived in America. You got a gay - it's the dregs of society. In Russia - gays is creative elite. There used to be an elite. While the Americans have not got into Russian with their sexual concerns. Now the creative elite in the Russian blue - it's just a fagots. Thank you USA!

Whether you like it or not, Tchaikovsky was gay. It wasn't investigated in America, it was already known to many international scholars. Russia is in denial about it. He was a great composer and gave Russia a great legacy of music. Our own Leonard Bernstein was gay. Many great artists of the past were gay, like Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci. Face it, art and homosexuality go hand and hand in most cases. You're condemning people who gave so much beauty to your culture out of an unreasonable fear and hatred. What a shame for anyone in your country who is an artist, composer, poet or musician and happens to be gay.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertai ... gay/68679/

[Isaac]

Careful, TC. Some of those news sites might be banned by his ISP.

[Sergeant Thorne]

I know what Gays are, I also know they are people. They are no more normal than pedophiles.

Now I'd answer you with a straight answer, please do me the same favor.
Would you be happy if the United States started arresting people for being openly gay and promoting gay rights?

For promotion of homosexuality I would be pretty happy to see them arrested. I don't think people should be arrested for being gay, but they ought to be ostracized, IMO. Mind you I don't think the Federal government should be involved. An interesting commentary in a Old Testament account, you can see that "perverted persons" were put out of the country by at least one ruler, which was presented as a positive move.

I don't need anyone telling me to "step outside".

You confuse "need" with "want".

That's cute, but I'm not confused. You folks need to come up with better tactics than accusations of limited experience. That's just weak. If I lived out in the boonies and I'd never seen or met anyone who was homosexual then you might have something... then again you might not--experience can inform an opinion, but experience alone does not legitimize or conversely dismiss it.

[Isaac]

wrong

[Sergeant Thorne]

damn!

[callmeslick]

In a lot of Old Testament writings, all kinds of goofy harsh punishments were meted out. Should I be punished for my love of shellfish? Should women politicians be beaten for attempting to impose rules on men? Come on, Thorne, the enlightenment came to the rest of the civilized word long ago, it's time for your thinking to move 3 millennia forward.

[Tunnelcat]

Now I'd answer you with a straight answer, please do me the same favor.
Would you be happy if the United States started arresting people for being openly gay and promoting gay rights?
For promotion of homosexuality I would be pretty happy to see them arrested. I don't think people should be arrested for being gay, but they ought to be ostracized, IMO. Mind you I don't think the Federal government should be involved. An interesting commentary in a Old Testament account, you can see that "perverted persons" were put out of the country by at least one ruler, which was presented as a positive move.

What a nice attitude towards people who don't choose how they are, but want to live as they are. They're not promoting it to you or someone's kids. They're not trying to make more homos. If you even delved into the science and tried to understand it, you wouldn't say such idiotic things. They're only living they way they feel their own "normal" is and they only want acceptance, not ostracizing hate. You don't get it do you ST? It's not a choice, so you're no better than a bully harassing someone they don't like who's different from you.

[callmeslick]

Science, TC?? No one who insists on Old Testament rule adherance is going to accept modern science.

[Tunnelcat]

Sorry, my stupidity.

[sigma]

P.S. Do us all a favor. Go to Alaska. Enjoy the fresh air. Sit around the campfire at night, kill there a couple of wolves and bears. Or just take a trip to the sea. You will become much easier, believe me.

I'd die in cold weather. I freeze to death in 50 degrees F.

This is the meaning. Physical suffering purify the soul of man. Freeze is so hard to understand what it means to the support of friends. You will remember all the bad things you've done for your relatives. Do you repent you will understand the true human values. Be sure to try the feeling. Kill the bear, Isaac. Drink a cup of hot blood of the bear. Eat his heart. You'll come home a different person. I'm even a little jealous of you because you will experience it for the first time in his life

[Tunnelcat]

That's an idea sigma. Why don't you personally go out into the wild, with a gay person, and go on a spirit walk into the harsh, forbidding environment where you would have to depend on each other for survival. I'm sure there are a few gay Russians who would take you up on the offer, without any sexual overtones, if you could find one willing to come out in the first place. Maybe it will open your heart and cleanse your soul a bit. To understand one's enemy, one must try to survive with one's enemy.

[sigma]

sigma, you've never told me your opinions about Tchaikovsky? Do you hate his works or hate him for being a gay Russian?

As long as I can remember, I've never thought about Tchaikovsky is gay or not. Americans have been actively discussing the problem of blue in the press. Then the Americans began to investigate which of the Russian composers was gay. If it were not for the Americans, I would never even know that Tchaikovsky is gay. You already got me with his dirty fagots. Let the gays live in America, OK?
Although I very much doubt that Tchaikovsky would be a great composer, had he lived in America. You got a gay - it's the dregs of society. In Russia - gays is creative elite. There used to be an elite. While the Americans have not got into Russian with their sexual concerns. Now the creative elite in the Russian blue - it's just a fagots. Thank you USA!

Whether you like it or not, Tchaikovsky was gay. It wasn't investigated in America, it was already known to many international scholars. Russia is in denial about it. He was a great composer and gave Russia a great legacy of music. Our own Leonard Bernstein was gay. Many great artists of the past were gay, like Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci. Face it, art and homosexuality go hand and hand in most cases. You're condemning people who gave so much beauty to your culture out of an unreasonable fear and hatred. What a shame for anyone in your country who is an artist, composer, poet or musician and happens to be gay.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertai ... gay/68679/

I think differently. Leave alone the sexual orientation of creative people. No need to focus public attention on sexual orientation creative people. Gay people - it's very sensual people. Leave them alone. And then you'll see the true masterpieces of art. This is my opinion.

[sigma]

sigma, you've never told me your opinions about Tchaikovsky? Do you hate his works or hate him for being a gay Russian?

As long as I can remember, I've never thought about Tchaikovsky is gay or not. Americans have been actively discussing the problem of blue in the press. Then the Americans began to investigate which of the Russian composers was gay. If it were not for the Americans, I would never even know that Tchaikovsky is gay. You already got me with his dirty fagots. Let the gays live in America, OK?
Although I very much doubt that Tchaikovsky would be a great composer, had he lived in America. You got a gay - it's the dregs of society. In Russia - gays is creative elite. There used to be an elite. While the Americans have not got into Russian with their sexual concerns. Now the creative elite in the Russian blue - it's just a fagots. Thank you USA!

Whether you like it or not, Tchaikovsky was gay. It wasn't investigated in America, it was already known to many international scholars. Russia is in denial about it. He was a great composer and gave Russia a great legacy of music. Our own Leonard Bernstein was gay. Many great artists of the past were gay, like Michelangelo and Leonardo da Vinci. Face it, art and homosexuality go hand and hand in most cases. You're condemning people who gave so much beauty to your culture out of an unreasonable fear and hatred. What a shame for anyone in your country who is an artist, composer, poet or musician and happens to be gay.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertai ... gay/68679/

I know some guys are blue in Moscow. I have to communicate with them, because these blue guys are professionals in their field. In addition, these blue guys are colleagues of my girl. My familiar blue guys know perfectly well that I can hit them for their sexy look or gestures towards me. In short, we understand each other. I have a good relationship with these blue guys. They are intelligent and understands my sexual Orientation. There is nothing bad about these guys, I can not say. I am not interested in their personal lives. Only work.

[Tunnelcat]

sigma, gays are not anymore "sensual" than heteros. The sex drive is pretty much the same for all people from all genders and orientations, with slight variations of course. Humans aren't all the same. There are probably more oversexed heteros in the world than homos just because of the larger numbers of heteros compared to homos in any population. All one has to do is look at all the instances of rape, child porn and prostitution that goes on in the world today, MOST of which is heterosexual in nature. You need to look at things from a female's point of view. I'm far more likely to get raped by a man, walking the streets at night, than to be accosted by a lesbian, so I fear hetero males more than any gay person.

I know some guys are blue in Moscow. I have to communicate with them, because these guys are blue professonalami in their field. In addition, these blue guys are colleagues of my girl. My familiar blue guys know perfectly well that I can hit them for their sexy look or gestures towards me. In short, we understand each other. I have a good relationship with these blue guys. They are intelligent and understands my sexual Orientation. There is nothing bad about these guys, I can not say. I am not interested in their personal lives. Only work.

Hell, I'd want to hit a straight male co-worker if he made a pass at me, and I'm straight. If he kept it up after I told him "no", I'd probably kick him in the groin to make the point. Untoward sexual advances are not wanted when the recipient doesn't want it, from any gender. I'm also guessing that far more unwanted straight sexual advances occur in the workplace than gay ones. Here it's called "sexual harassment" when it's not wanted. I'm sure it's the same in Russia.

By the way, do you ever get sleep? It says it after 4:00 AM in Russia right now. I'd be snoring away blissfully at that particular time of morning.

[Sergeant Thorne]

They're not promoting it to you or someone's kids.

Actually that's exactly what's happening, and it's the only reason I'm so vocal about the subject. If you tell a child that perverted behavior is ok, you've left them without a mooring in their development. A young boy should not be without discouragement to countenance thoughts of homosexuality. A young boy needs to learn how to be a man, and a man is interested only in a woman. Not another man, not a girl, not an older woman. A comparable, compatible woman.

Slick, you'll need to be more specific when referring to the Old Testament, and negative assumptions of what I think of the Old Testament or of "science" are just shallow, convenient, bully-style argument winners. Shame on you. The Old Testament was a period in time, and in the Bible we are given a look at what took place and what God's thoughts/standards were on man's behavior toward God and other men. You can think what you will about that, and it will ultimately be between you and your maker, but abusing the subject matter as an argument-winning tool, and making negative insinuations or unfounded assumptions about my intellectual honesty or beliefs in regard to the Old Testament is beneath the level of civilized discussion.

[sigma]

That's an idea sigma. Why don't you personally go out into the wild, with a gay person, and go on a spirit walk into the harsh, forbidding environment where you would have to depend on each other for survival. I'm sure there are a few gay Russians who would take you up on the offer, without any sexual overtones, if you could find one willing to come out in the first place. Maybe it will open your heart and cleanse your soul a bit. To understand one's enemy, one must try to survive with one's enemy.

I would have never picked up on the hunt for wolves blue guy. I'm sorry.

[Isaac]

Why do you keep saying blue?

[Jeff250]

It's probably a mistranslation.

[Isaac]

oh, sigma is trying to say dove?

[sigma]

Blue guy - it's a homosexual. Maybe an online translator Google needs to seriously improve if English-speaking people have difficulty understanding the translation from Russian to English.

I would have never picked up on the hunt for wolves blue guy. I'm sorry.

I just thought that maybe it makes sense to take along on the hunt blue guy. Just to make sure he knows its natural essence. I'm sure any American gay become a real man and a heterosexual after two weeks of hunting or fishing in the Siberian taiga with Russian guys. If he stays gay, it does not fix anything already.

[Isaac]

So the Blue Man Group looks like a gay rights music group? Is the Blue Man Group banned from Russia?

[Foil]

Isaac, intentionally misconstruing a mistranslation is neither funny nor productive. If you have a point, make it.

[Isaac]

I want to know if their whole country is mistranslating the band's name.

[Foil]

No. As Jeff250 pointed out with the link, the translation issue is Russian-to-English, not English-to-Russian.

[Isaac]

explain

[Foil]

No need to explain. Just try it. The English-to-Russian doesn't come up with the word meaning "gay".

[Isaac]

Here's the thing, clearly sigma knows some english and he thinks the slang term "blue guy" means gay. Forget the translator for a sec. I'm seeing him use a slang term. I want him to clarify what he means, not you.

[Spidey]

Holy crap….gay people have been know as “Blue Boys” for as long as I can remember. There are even a few songs that come to mind, that use that reference.

[Isaac]

Holy crap….gay people have been know as “Blue Boys” for as long as I can remember. There are even a few songs that come to mind, that use that reference.

So this phrase might still be common in Russia? Hear that Foil?

[Foil]

Yes, I'm aware of that. Still doesn't explain why you think Russians would misinterpret the English word "blue" when in the context of a blue-faced band.

[Tunnelcat]

That's an idea sigma. Why don't you personally go out into the wild, with a gay person, and go on a spirit walk into the harsh, forbidding environment where you would have to depend on each other for survival. I'm sure there are a few gay Russians who would take you up on the offer, without any sexual overtones, if you could find one willing to come out in the first place. Maybe it will open your heart and cleanse your soul a bit. To understand one's enemy, one must try to survive with one's enemy.

I would have never picked up on the hunt for wolves blue guy. I'm sorry.

Well, I guess you'll forever be uninformed about gay people, or should I say "pidrik"? You've probably met quite a few gay people and probably have never known they were different, all because they never said a thing about it.

Actually that's exactly what's happening, and it's the only reason I'm so vocal about the subject. If you tell a child that perverted behavior is ok, you've left them without a mooring in their development. A young boy should not be without discouragement to countenance thoughts of homosexuality. A young boy needs to learn how to be a man, and a man is interested only in a woman. Not another man, not a girl, not an older woman. A comparable, compatible woman.

All sex is perverted. Didn't you know? And what parent even talks about sex to their kids anyways? Back to the point, you're still ignoring the science that's starting to show that gender identity and the actual physical sex of a person don't always match up like the normal way you think it does. Many women who are pregnant are now worrying about the chemical conditions in their wombs, because that is where the sexual identity of the fetus seems to be most affected during development. But wait, you don't want to hear about the science, do you?