Ender's Game

Jon the Great · Post by **Jon the Great** » Sun May 30, 2004 6:00 pm

I just finished Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.
I must say, It was a pretty cool book. I really didn't like the ending though.[spoiler] I kinda wish I had just put the book down after the final battle. All that stuff with the dead buggers was a complete waste of time. [/spoiler]

Right now I'm debating whether I should read the other books in the series.

Any opinions?

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Sun May 30, 2004 6:20 pm

Reading through the Shadow series right now. Really interesting stuff. I haven't yet read the rest of the main series, though, but my friend tells me it's also really good.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun May 30, 2004 6:23 pm

A lot of gamers really like the Ender's Game series (it's clearly marketed for gamers.) I never really did -- I read Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, and that pretty much wore out my interest. The storylines were kind of interesting (in particular, for the "gamer" aspects -- the clever strategies and such), but seemed lacking in depth to me, especially toward the end.

OSC seems to use his books as an excuse to create extreme moral scenarios -- things like, for example, choosing between genocide against another species and having your own species wiped out. I never much liked his treatment of those scenarios -- he'd put together this really difficult moral question, and then he'd give the sort of answer you give to a hypothetical question you're not really interested in. I found that frustrating -- he asked a wonderful and deep question, and then sounded like a high-school freshman trying to answer it.

I hear the later books in the series lean more in the "weird extreme moral questions" direction than the "military strategy and planetary conquest" direction. If you like the way he deals with weird extreme moral questions, go ahead and read the rest of the series -- but if you're in it for the strategy, it's probably not worth your time.

Drakona · Post by **Drakona** » Sun May 30, 2004 6:39 pm

Yeah, the end of Ender's Game *is* pretty weird. It becomes a lot less weird when you realize Ender's Game was only ever intended as setup for the rest of the series. I read somewhere that Card considered the next two books to be the *real* story he wanted to tell; Ender's Game just presents the problem and lets you get to know Ender as a child.

The rest of the series (by which I mean the four books--"Speaker for the Dead", "Xenocide", and "Children of the Mind"--not the prequel stuff he's written more recently) is very different from the first book. It gets progressively more philosophical as it goes on. "Speaker for the Dead" and "Xenocide" are filled with philosophy about Ender, ethics, and the human condition. I loved them, but then I like my sci fi philosophical. Most people I've talked to don't care for them. The last book, "Children of the Mind" is... just... weird. Read it, if you like REALLY bizarre metaphysics masquarading as physics. It's a total trip.

Oddly enough, the rest of the Ender series lacks what I consider Card's signature as a writer, and what makes Ender's Game so good--the creation of utterly undecidable ethical situations. Ender's Game did this really well, with the repeated theme of murder and ultimate xenocide, but the rest of the series doesn't do it much at all--it seems much more interested in exploring exactly how guilty Ender is through tons of metaphor and philosophy. If you'd like to hear how the universe, Ender, and the people around him ultimately judge him, read the rest. If, on the other hand, you'd like more of what you got in Ender's Game, don't finish the series, but pick up some different books by Card. Adultury is examined in Hart's Hope, Homosexuality in Songbird, and various ethical dilemmas come up in Lost Boys and Pastwatch. Of those, I most highly recommend Pastwatch--the writing and thinking in there is probably Card at his finest. Alternatively, his Alvin series and Homecoming series are pretty good. Also, his short stories can be quite good--I'll never forget "Unaccompanied Sonata."

I used to be a huge fan of his, and I've read a *lot* of his books. These days I don't like him so much. I find his philosophy to frequently miss the point of the questions he asks. In fact, I very much feel that way about the philosophy in Ender's Game. But if you like it, there's a lot more where it came from; Card's a great writer for creating moral dillemas, and for examining the human condition.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Sun May 30, 2004 7:16 pm

Well worth reading the other Ender books. They are very different from the first one however. A very interestign series.

Best series's of all time (at least in my view) are 2001--3001 and the Foundation Series.

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Sun May 30, 2004 7:53 pm

Re: Foundation: Asimov reigns, end of story

Read and re-read the series several times, including all the prequels and sequels.

Some of my favourite scifi is by Ken MacLeod, though... especially The Stone Canal and The Cassini Division. Unless you can't stand, uh, alternative politics (he had trouble getting it published in the US for some reason...), do check it out... he's pretty funny in places, and the stories are great. His other series (the above are from "The Fall Revolution" though the series is somewhat loosely held together and thus the books aren't publicised as a series though they are), starting with Cosmonaut Keep is good, too, though the last book is kind of lame compared to the first two.

Though I'm a little biased towards him because he makes programmer/hacker jokes, and gets them right (well, he is one too

)

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:16 pm

I found Ender's Game and the rest of the series (Xenocide, Speaker, children) to be fantastic. I usually read the whole set every year or two. Speaker is probably my favorite of the series.

The new books like Shadow are interesting, but aren't really philosophical like the other books. They are more just masturbatory for us old fans

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:18 pm

Hum, now I gotta read this sometime.

Jagger · Post by **Jagger** » Mon May 31, 2004 1:09 pm

I liked the whole series. It's got my thumbs up. I got so engrossed I ended up reading the last three books in about a week and half.

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:12 pm

OK, I'll be the odd man out here and say that I only really liked the first one. It was a great novel; even my friends and family who don't like sci-fi enjoyed Ender's Game. I found the other books OK, but they felt tacked on to me.

Jon the Great · Post by **Jon the Great** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:42 pm

Well I've decided to skip the books after Ender's Game and go right on to Ender's Shadow.
So far so good! I'm only on chapter 3 though.

Mobius wrote:Best series's of all time (at least in my view) are 2001--3001 and the Foundation Series.

Wolf on Air wrote:Re: Foundation: Asimov reigns, end of story

I couldn't agree more. I read all 7 or 8 books relating to Foundation and then I went back and read Foundation a few more times.

I've been trying to get my friend to read Foundation for a few years now. He keeps refusing though.

Maybe you guys can convince him.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:57 am

Ender's Game tends to appeal to brilliant, misunderstood kids, or to adults who were once brilliant, misunderstood kids.

The 3 following books are a real let-down if you're expecting more of the same.

Then the Shadow series came along, with a very very blatant case of pandering to fans of "Ender's Game".

Interestingly enough, when I re-read Xenocide, Speaker & Children, I enjoyed them for their Heinlein-esque flavor and I was able to relate to them much better as a nominal adult than I was as a (barely) post-teen.

Of course, my ALL-TIME favorite series (at this juncture at least) is David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series, and/or just about any other project he is involved in. David Drake & Eric Flint's "Belasarius" series comes in a close second.

I just enjoy Military SF more and more...That seems to be where most of the good stories are being told these days.

KtheC' · Post by **KtheC'** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:47 pm

Another good series is the MIssion Earth decology by L. Ron Hubbard. While it doesn't have intense futuristic sci-fi. There is enough in it to keep interest. The humor and satire on society is what will keep you reading.
Battlefield Earth is also a classic. Don't judge this book by the pathetic attempt at a movie that was done while back.

Birdseye · Post by **Birdseye** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:41 pm

Another fantastic book by L. Ron Hubbard is "Dianetics" !!

KtheC' · Post by **KtheC'** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:44 pm

LOL!!!

JazzyJet · Post by **JazzyJet** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:57 pm

Oh man Enders game was awesome. I couldn't stop thinking about Descent3 while I was reading it. Unfortunatly I gotta agree with Genghis on this one. The Speaker for the dead was good reading for me but the last two just made me irritable. Dosn't reading Enders game just want to make you play Descent though?

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:48 am

weird, i just read the original short story of Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card a few days ago.

here it is online, in it's entirety, have a read:
http://www.hatrack.com/osc/stories/enders-game.shtml
takes a few hours.

it was recommended to me coz supposedly Ender displays some typical INFP traits. i dunno, it wasn't THAT great, i guess the full novel is better.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:47 am

That was a pretty good read, roid. Is the full-length story similar to the short story in plot, or does it encompass more? I might be interested in taking a look at it.

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:04 pm

Correction: took 40 minutes to read. Fun stuff, though... now I gotta check out the books!

Viralphrame · Post by **Viralphrame** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:18 pm

The Seafort Serees by David Feintuch is also an awesome read. First-person stories always grab my attention.

[]V[]essenjah · Post by **[]V[]essenjah** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:07 pm

Well since you guys brought this topic up, I started to read Enders Game. I haven't really had time to read the whole thing in one sitting but when I don't have something else to take care of I'll take a few out to read a chapter or two. Seems like a really cool book so far. I remembered my science teacher reading it to me when I was little but back then I was too young to really understand what it was all about so I doodled when he read it. However, I was intrigued by it but I really wanted to read it on my own. Later my brother gave me a copy and it seems that I just never really had a chance to reac it. But now that Summer is here, I figured it was time to dig into a good novel. So, I did.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:01 pm

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks tha ANYTHING by L. Ron Hubbard is worthwhile is NOT judging books the same way I do.

The movie was probably BETTER than the book was, judged strictly by the standards of their respective genres.

I'm not going to get into a longwinded review of Battlefield Earth except to say that the ENTIRE book was regurgitated from the roots of Science Fiction: The pulp magazines in the "Golden Age" of SF.

There wasn't a SINGLE, SOLITARY original thought in the whole 1000 page + volume, and the massive tome could have been condensed down to about 300 pages with ABSOLUTELY no qualitative loss whatsoever.

I want the 10 hours I spent reading this book back!

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:40 pm

OK, so I had to check the series out after this thread. Just finished the first book, and true to form, in about 4 consecutive hours of reading (and for me actually going rather slowly, to allow for thinking and analyzing).

I kinda wish I had just put the book down after the final battle. All that stuff with the dead buggers was a complete waste of time.

Um... it was actually the best bit in the whole book, since it's such a twist, IMO, though I guess enjoyment is subjective.

Ender's Game tends to appeal to brilliant, misunderstood kids

Great, the mystery is solved

Ohwell, onto the next... (and yeah, Drak, philosophical scifi is the best sort)

Jon the Great · Post by **Jon the Great** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:14 am

spoiler tag?

[spoiler]I liked the idea that the buggers really had no idea we were capable of thought and that once they knew they were going to leave us alone. However, that really should've been in a different book. It was a mistake of Card to try and pass off what is obviously the beginning of another book as a conclusion.

IMO he should've ended it right after the scene where Ender agrees to accompany Valentine to the new colony. As interesting as the bugger's perspective of the wars is, it would make a better beginning of a new book.[/spoiler]

Wolf on Air · Post by **Wolf on Air** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:23 am

Not much of a spoiler anyway, though your last post is. There's probably worse spoilers if you read between the lines in the rest of this thread anyway

Also, the spoiler tags annoy the heck out of me since I primarily browse with the keyboard.

And I'm not sure I can agree, though I really like twist endings and I tend to think of a series as a series, not as individual books, so I don't mind, but whatever.

bash · Post by **bash** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:03 am

Was reading an article about media bias and the author's name rang a bell. Interesting read.

http://www.rhinotimes.com/greensboro/osc2.html