Russian Lacky's Admit

[woodchip]

Russian back separatist say they shot plane down. From intercepted message, note... "Igor Bezler, who the SBU says is a Russian military intelligence officer and leading commander of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic."


"Igor Bezler: We have just shot down a plane. Group Minera. It fell down beyond Yenakievo (Donetsk Oblast)."

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 56545.html

[sigma]

The problem of the U.S. administration is that they are still hoping that someone will believe them. Although it has long been nobody believes.

[CUDA]

yep nothing like Audio tapes to prove sigma is lying

[callmeslick]

as some expert noted last night on CNN, given the US technology aimed at that region, the US knows exactly where that missle was fired, and by whom, with likely HD photos that can focus on a square foot area on the ground(from a satellite) of the whole thing. Thanks to modern internet technology, the sequence of the shootdown dovetails nicely with a Rebel field commander crowing on Facebook about a 'shoot down', and the whole world knows about it(despite them trying to pull it after a few hours). As the OP notes, there are surveillance recordings of phone exchanges as well. The whole thing is starting to look like a really bad mistake by amateur missle operators in the East of Ukraine. Likely outcome: a very real, and very harsh response, economically, from Europe.

[Tunnelcat]

The problem of the U.S. administration is that they are still hoping that someone will believe them. Although it has long been nobody believes.

Come on sigma, wake up. The U.S. didn't fire or supply that missile launcher. We haven't even supplied the Ukrainians any military hardware either. Putin's going to take the blame for this one because the missile that shot that plane down was Russian made. And you know damn well that launcher was "acquired" by those Russian-backed rebels after overrunning some of those Ukrainian military bases. Even if those rebels made a mistake when they aimed the missile, Putin's in hot water because he's backing those rebels. The U.N. is calling for an international investigation. Lets hope that neither the U.S. nor Russia fights that request.

[sigma]

You forget that the U.S. has provided "irrefutable evidence" of the existence of nuclear weapons in Iraq.
You also forget that Russia has the world's best weapons and the world's best military experts.

[Top Gun]

You also forget that Russia has the world's best weapons and the world's best military experts.

ahahahahaha no

[Tunnelcat]

You forget that the U.S. has provided "irrefutable evidence" of the existence of nuclear weapons in Iraq.
You also forget that Russia has the world's best weapons and the world's best military experts.

Right now, who cares? As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be enemies and I wish BOTH our stupid governments would quite fighting proxy wars on their behalves. It's not Iran we're talking about here either, but a bunch of trigger happy imbeciles with anti-aircraft missiles in their hands who murdered a bunch of innocent people because they didn't know how to use the weapon properly. What say you if they had shot down a Russian airliner and had killed some of your relatives? It could have just as easily have happened. What would Putin had done then?

[sigma]

Is one of the evidences of any crime. This is called the motive of the crime. Do you really think a coincidence that a foreign civil aircraft was destroyed not by order of Washington? To this plane crashed exactly in the eastern part of Ukraine? It was during the discussion of Ukrainian conflict in the international forum? U.S. uses cheap and terrible tricks that can mislead only Aboriginal banana country. Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Petro Poroshenko, should be taken into custody and questioned to clarify all the details of the incident. Including using the polygraph.

[Tunnelcat]

sigma, the U.S. may be one of the most conceited and arrogant nations on earth in the eyes of the Russian people and maybe we deserve that moniker at times, but let's face it, this disaster was probably caused by rebels backed by Russia and Putin. Rebels who need lessons in how to operate sophisticated missile launchers if they're going to kill their enemy, not foreign civilians. So wake up, you're side's the one that screwed up big this time. By the way, we're just as guilty of doing the same screw up in the past.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[CUDA]

You also forget that Russia has the world's best weapons and the world's best military experts.

ahahahahaha no

you funny guy

[sigma]

Once again you said stupidity. The Russian military, who have the perfect weapons and are qualified to accurately get into your the doghouse near your home intercontinental missile, and you seriously saying that they could not teach Ukrainian insurgents how to use weapons systems? Please do not quote the American media. At least sometimes try to use your own brains.

[CUDA]

Once again you said stupidity. The Russian military, who have the perfect weapons and are qualified to accurately get into your the doghouse near your home intercontinental missile, and you seriously saying that they could not teach Ukrainian insurgents how to use weapons systems? Please do not quote the American media. At least sometimes try to use your own brains.

so you are admitting that they trained the Ukrainian separatist that shot down the civilian airplane. I though Russia was a nation that didn't do that kind of stuff.

keep talking, your slip is showing

[Tunnelcat]

Once again you said stupidity. The Russian military, who have have the perfect weapons and are qualified to accurately get into your the doghouse near your home intercontinental missile, and you seriously saying that they could not teach Ukrainian insurgents how to use weapons systems? Please do not quote the American media. At least sometimes try to use your own brains.

Uh, last time I heard, most of those Ukrainian separatists are NOT Ukrainian or Russian military, only some are. We know that they do have Russian advisers however. Most are everyday ragtag people from Ukraine that want to side with Russia and are willing to fight for it. They are probably impulsive and want quick victories too. Those very people took some pretty sophisticated weapons in raids on Ukrainian military bases. Even the Russian media said that the separatists had acquired the SA-11 Gadfly and you know it took that particular type and size of weapon to hit an airliner flying way up at 33,000 feet, not the garden variety shoulder mounted version. I seriously doubt the everyday rebel knows how to accurately launch anti-aircraft missiles at the right target unless they are trained at it. I know I couldn't step into one and get it to work the way it's intended as a common civilian, so I guess that's the question, have they been trained? The other alternatives are that they knew full well what they were doing and what they were shooting at, or the weapon acquired and hit the wrong target, or the pro-western Ukrainians did it themselves, which would be a pretty stupid move. Either way, if an impartial third party doesn't get in there unimpeded to investigate, which so far hasn't happened, the truth will never be known.

[sigma]

I can give you a hundred reasons and evidence of U.S. involvement in the Ukrainian conflict.
U.S. is doing everything possible and impossible to constantly give reasons for Russian hatred against Americans. And vice versa. I think it's wise to not pander to these objectives of U.S. foreign policy today. I see smart people, my like-minded people whose opinion it is not clear which of the power structures in the United States is trying to use their own political and economic interests.

[CUDA]

Did Russia invade a sovereign nation namely the Ukraine, YES or NO

Was a civilian air craft shot down? YES or NO

Was a Russian built anti aircraft missile used YES or NO

Did the Russians train the separatists in the use of those anti aircraft weapons YES or NO

Are the Russian supplying weapons to the Separatist YES or NO

Will Sigma find any excuse to shift blame to the US for his countries Crimes YES or NO

[sigma]

you are incompetent, CUDA. American thinking it's just some sort of disease. I hope that the U.S. will eventually be wise enough not to get the really big problems that they have long deserved...

[Spidey]

I can give you a hundred reasons and evidence of U.S. involvement in the Ukrainian conflict.

No....you can't.

[Top Gun]

you are incompetent, CUDA. American thinking it's just some sort of disease. I hope that the U.S. will eventually be wise enough not to get the really big problems that they have long deserved...

So you're just dodging his questions then? Put up or shut up, comrade.

[CUDA]

you are incompetent, CUDA. American thinking it's just some sort of disease. I hope that the U.S. will eventually be wise enough not to get the really big problems that they have long deserved...

So you're just dodging his questions then? Put up or shut up, comrade.

well at least he answered the last question

[callmeslick]

You forget that the U.S. has provided "irrefutable evidence" of the existence of nuclear weapons in Iraq.
You also forget that Russia has the world's best weapons and the world's best military experts.

you would be well advised not to test that erroneous assumption in a real fight with the US. You will be sadly disappointed.

[CUDA]

Sigma lying isnt a good trait.

Bush never claimed he had irrefutable evidence of Iraq having nukes.

he said there was evidence that they had a program to obtain them. You really should stop listening to your government run media that is controlled by its head spy/top liar, you just make yourself look foolish when you do.

[Tunnelcat]

Sigma lying isnt a good trait.

Bush never claimed he had irrefutable evidence of Iraq having nukes.

he said there was evidence that they had a program to obtain them. You really should stop listening to your government run media that is controlled by its head spy/top liar, you just make yourself look foolish when you do.

Bush and Cheney may not have actually SAID Iraq had nukes, but they both made several substantial enough claims of a nuclear threat to convince Congress and the country that they had enough justification to invade another sovereign country. Close enough for Republican warmongering, so don't go putting lipstick on that pig.

http://www.armscontrol.org/print/1361

sigma, it appears those rebels weren't using their Russian "gift" of a SA-11 properly. They didn't have the radar necessary to distinguish between different aircraft, so they shot that missile blindly and ended up killing 298 innocent people. Plus, those rebels are NOT allowing international access to the site and instead are removing evidence of their crime. Putin is at least, complicit in murder and trying to cover it up.

http://news.yahoo.com/without-radar-mis ... 58909.html

[Flatlander]

Links to some of the latest news about this tragedy:

Looters Stole Cash, Credit Cards, And Jewelry From Flight MH17 Crash Victims:

http://www.businessinsider.com/looters- ... ims-2014-7



Dutch 'furious' at reports of mistreatment at crash site in Ukraine:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... Q120140719



Here's why Malaysia Airlines MH17 overflew Ukraine on its way to Malaysia:

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/18/mh ... -malaysia/



A Tweetbot Caught the Russian Gov't Editing Flight MH17 Wikipedia Info:

http://gizmodo.com/a-tweetbot-caught-th ... 1607483459



Russian missile smuggled into Ukraine before Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was
shot down: tapes:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/r ... -1.1872722



Attack on Airliner Sets a New Precedent for the World's Battlefields:

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2014/ ... f=d-skybox



Ukraine, rebels argue over wreck; Europeans give Putin 'last chance':

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... 4620140719



Ukraine Says It Can Prove Russia Supplied Arms System That Felled Jet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world ... .html?_r=0



Ukraine charges anti-aircraft systems moved to Russia:

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... tml#page=1



What it's like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system:

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20/in ... ar-images/

[CUDA]

Close enough for Republican warmongering, so don't go putting lipstick on that pig. 

ya and close enough that the warmongering Democrats overwhelming voted for it too. Just a little revisionist lipstick on your part too huh TC?

[Skyalmian]

Is everyone enjoying the show? The ridiculously transparent attempt by the entire Western media and their political 'elite' masters to use the alleged shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 as part of their 'asymmetric' warfare against Russia and Vladimir Putin. Even the supposedly 'leftist' UK Guardian newspaper has been running headlines like World demands answers from Russia after Malaysia Airlines plane's destruction over Ukraine and Hillary Clinton (wasn't she fired?) wasted no time in declaring authoritatively that Russian rebels were responsible for the downing of the plane and that "Putin has gone too far". Clinton's statement clearly exposes her own and her former government's complete lack of respect for due process, truth, and the extreme prejudice with which they both view the Russian Federation. It's also clearly complete and utter BS because no one could possibly know who was responsible for the shooting down of Flight MH17 just a few hours after it fell out of the sky.

Then again, the US government never did let the facts get in the way of a good dose of propaganda, and to be fair, from the point of view of Clinton and her ilk, Putin has gone 'too far', but it has nothing to do with any Malaysian aircraft.

[woodchip]

The disrespect by the Ukraine rebels toward the deceased and overall how they have handled the tragedy, will be ultimately their demise. Remember...you heard it first here.

[sigma]

sigma, it appears those rebels weren't using their Russian "gift" of a SA-11 properly. They didn't have the radar necessary to distinguish between different aircraft, so they shot that missile blindly and ended up killing 298 innocent people. Plus, those rebels are NOT allowing international access to the site and instead are removing evidence of their crime. Putin is at least, complicit in murder and trying to cover it up.

http://news.yahoo.com/without-radar-mis ... 58909.html

Links to some of the latest news about this tragedy:

Looters Stole Cash, Credit Cards, And Jewelry From Flight MH17 Crash Victims:

http://www.businessinsider.com/looters- ... ims-2014-7



Dutch 'furious' at reports of mistreatment at crash site in Ukraine:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... Q120140719



Here's why Malaysia Airlines MH17 overflew Ukraine on its way to Malaysia:

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/18/mh ... -malaysia/



A Tweetbot Caught the Russian Gov't Editing Flight MH17 Wikipedia Info:

http://gizmodo.com/a-tweetbot-caught-th ... 1607483459



Russian missile smuggled into Ukraine before Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was
shot down: tapes:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/r ... -1.1872722



Attack on Airliner Sets a New Precedent for the World's Battlefields:

http://www.defenseone.com/threats/2014/ ... f=d-skybox



Ukraine, rebels argue over wreck; Europeans give Putin 'last chance':

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... 4620140719



Ukraine Says It Can Prove Russia Supplied Arms System That Felled Jet:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world ... .html?_r=0



Ukraine charges anti-aircraft systems moved to Russia:

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la- ... tml#page=1



What it's like to be sitting behind a radar screen of an SA-11 Buk SAM system:

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20/in ... ar-images/

There is no one to sign the expert committee to draw conclusions about the causes of the crash Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. But of course, Western journalists already know everything about it But why the Western press is silent about the causes of crashes already proved other civilian aircraft...

1. September 1, 1983 passenger "Boeing 747" Korean Air Lines violated Soviet airspace and flew over a number of Soviet military installations, after which he was shot down Su-15 fighter. The reason for the attack was the fact that the plane was deeply invaded the Soviet Union and deviated from the course of more than 500 kilometers. Besides the crew board did not respond to calls. Moreover, the Soviet air defenses were recorded two aircraft United States, who were expecting this board in the waters of the Kamchatka Peninsula. The American administration has not given an explanation of several actions reconnaissance aircraft the U.S. Air Force, stationed in close proximity to the Soviet border on the night of September 1. And one of them - RC-135 - during a time accompanied by South Korea "Boeing". The experts in this connection there wonder why Americans are not warned about this crew. Pilots "Boeing" for a large sum had been hired by U.S. intelligence agencies. Evidence that led lawyers and Charles Melvin Bela Harman, representing the families of the crew of the liner. According to them, the widow of the commander of the "Boeing" and his assistant said that their husbands promised a substantial sum in dollars if they violate the air border of the USSR and fly over Soviet territory. Between South Korean and U.S. intelligence airline in advance has been achieved in this regard the secret agreement. Pilots forced to agree to perform espionage operation.

2. June 27, 1980 MCDONNELL DOUGLAS DC-9 flight 870 Aerolinee Itavia was shot down between the cities of Bologna and Palermo. Plane followed the route intersects with the liner, which was supposed to fly Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. Board with Gaddafi followed by two Libyan MiG-23. At the same time, in the Tyrrhenian Sea were an American aircraft carrier "Saratoga" and the French aircraft carrier "Klimanso" from the island of Corsica, and ready to go two French fighter "Mirage". Some experts after investigating the incident concluded that the airliner could be randomly attacked by French or Italian planes that attacked fighters accompanying board with Muammar Gaddafi.

3. July 3, 1988 plane Airbus A300B2-203 airline Iran Air immediately after the departure was shot down at an altitude of 500 meters by a missile fired from a missile cruiser Vincennes U.S. Navy. The U.S. government has stated that the Iranian aircraft was mistakenly identified as an F-14 fighter Iranian Air Force. However, experts question arose in connection with which it was decided to attack aircraft at the time when the cruiser itself violated the territorial waters of Iran. Moreover, even if a passenger aboard was identified as Iranian military plane, for what purpose it was attacked, given the fact that he was not able to reach the borders of America, and U.S. allies in the military has its own air defense system. February 26, 1996 the U.S. agreed to pay Iran compensation of $ 61.8 million for the 248 killed at the rate of $ 300 thousand for every able-bodied prey and $ 150 thousand for each dependent. Offset the cost of the aircraft ($ 30 million), the United States refused.

This compensation is clearly seen as a unilateral U.S. voluntary act, as the responsibility for the incident, the U.S. government has not taken over. U.S. Vice President George HW Bush in 1988, in particular, said: "I will never apologize for the United States, no matter what the facts."

In my opinion, a distinct American style provocation, their great military experience and ruthlessness even for civil aircraft, their total irresponsibility and impunity, clearly suggest the suspicions.

[CUDA]

If you knew ANYTHING, you would know that all those facts were reported in the western media. We knew about it. Our press tends to look for reasons to take down our politicians. Unlike "Russia today" who's journalists are quiting left and right because of the lies the Russian government forces them to spew. And the lies you continually parrot.

[Spidey]

“Nobody can know who caused plane crash hours only after plane hits ground, but be sure it was horrible Americans”

[CUDA]

Your wrong Sigma knows

isnt it interesting that western journalists already know what happened but Russian journalists nothing?
just coincidence I suppose, either that or its a genetic thing with Russians not knowing anything.

[woodchip]

I wonder if sigma understands what state run media does. This reporter does:

"A reporter for a global Russian TV channel resigned over what she called the Kremlin-funded station's "disregard for the facts" in its coverage of the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet over Ukraine."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /12847251/

[CUDA]

Woody, you sourced it from a western media outlet. We all know they are American controlled and are a propaganda arm of our government

[Krom]

You're also assuming sigma can even access a western media site. It wouldn't surprise me if access to pretty much any dissenting media source, including all western ones was blocked from inside Russia. IIRC sigma himself even indicated as much saying access to most Western/American media sites was blocked a couple months ago.

[sigma]

If you knew ANYTHING, you would know that all those facts were reported in the western media. We knew about it. Our press tends to look for reasons to take down our politicians. Unlike "Russia today" who's journalists are quiting left and right because of the lies the Russian government forces them to spew. And the lies you continually parrot.

In this case, all the more puzzling why the U.S., Canada, France, Australia, the EU started to apply economic sanctions against Russia, based on unproven and defunct Russian guilt in killing innocent people in Ukraine. Russia continues to be only tens of thousands of refugees from Ukraine. And the fact that at the last meeting of the UN and the OSCE were not discussed problems proved war crimes in the United States due to the collapse of another civil aircraft, it only proves one thing - the UN, the OSCE and all countries that have introduced unreasonable and anti-Russian sanctions, they just are engaged and have their own opinions. More precisely, they can not have their independent opinion because total economic dependence on the United States, or they are simply intimidated. It is for this reason we can not allow American experts to investigate the crash of a Boeing, The Boeing Company as a product of the U.S. economy, so the United States would never say that the crash occurred because Boeing marriage or imperfection of the aircraft structure.

[sigma]

You're also assuming sigma can even access a western media site. It wouldn't surprise me if access to pretty much any dissenting media source, including all western ones was blocked from inside Russia. IIRC sigma himself even indicated as much saying access to most Western/American media sites was blocked a couple months ago.

I've found the reason for this. I could only be accessed with a single laptop. On the other computers I have full access to these sites.

[sigma]

Your wrong Sigma knows

isnt it interesting that western journalists already know what happened but Russian journalists nothing?
just coincidence I suppose, either that or its a genetic thing with Russians not knowing anything.

Let's not pass on personal insults in the discussion of this dramatic issue.

[sigma]

“Nobody can know who caused plane crash hours only after plane hits ground, but be sure it was horrible Americans”

So it is true This is recorded in world history.

And while almost all of you, as you always begins to squirm and writhe, change actual topic of discussion in the plane of trolling. Most likely, the majority of Americans are deeply religious people who sincerely believe they can commit any number of crimes, but if you come to church and repent incomprehensible priest, the great God forgive you all sins....

[CUDA]

Your wrong Sigma knows

isnt it interesting that western journalists already know what happened but Russian journalists nothing?
just coincidence I suppose, either that or its a genetic thing with Russians not knowing anything.

Let's not pass on personal insults in the discussion of this dramatic issue.

I see you still hVent answered any of my questions for earlier. One has to wonder why?

[sigma]

...I see you still hVent answered any of my questions for earlier. One has to wonder why?

If I understand you correctly, I'll explain. Since this forum enough playful style of communication, of course, I began to mirror your unflattering remarks. I did not mean to offend you personally. Despite my very negative attitude to the U.S. history and contemporary actions of the U.S. administration