God Bless the IDF...

flip · Post by **flip** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:10 pm

God bless Flabby. Every time I see this screwed up perception that the American media started going around about 10-15 years ago I try and combat it. I have kept an eye on this situation for years and I know all the things Israel has done to try and integrate and make prosperous Palestine. The burden lies at Hamas' feet.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:36 pm

Flabby Chick wrote:Took my daughter to her classmate's funeral yesterday, he was killed whilst uncovering the vast network of tunnels in the northern part of Gaza. I'll not try to make you see my point of view, because if i remember the DBB from years ago, most are pretty set in their ways. I'll just say, a terrorist organisation is firing thousands of rockets into my country, constantly, not just over the last two terrible weeks but since we pulled out in '05, and we are, at the moment, hell bent on stopping them...just like any other country would.

ever occur to you that THEY are hell bent on stopping the occupation, subjugation, bilking of water rights, defacto apartheid and other crimes your nation has foisted upon them for 50 years? Doesn't make either of you right, but it is more than high time that folks sat down and took an honest look at what has gone wrong in the region since the founding of the state of Israel. Serious stuff, like compensating families for loss of farmlands and orchards to 'settlement', or on the other side, bombing civilian targets which DID start with the Palestinians(now, both sides clearly do it). Things like access of all ethnic groups into Jerusalem, due to the longstanding history of the place, within so many cultures. Frankly, it is also past time that the US stop supplementing your military spending, and cut the apron strings. You wish to make peace with your neighbors? Work it out yourselves, and it isn't going to come from militarily dominating them.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:31 pm

There is no exclusion of “governing bodies” in the definition of terrorist.

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:05 pm

I watched an interview between Charlie Rose and Khaled Meshaal this weekend. Judging from what was said during that interview of the Hamas leader, there can never be peace between Palestine and Israel. He pretty much double spoke that he doesn't want an Israeli state to exist, period. All I have to say is, go Israel. They have the right to attack a enemy with an attitude like that.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-hamas- ... ish-state/

Tunnelcat · Post by **Tunnelcat** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:08 pm

ThunderBunny wrote:
tunnelcat wrote:A few of those are filled with the bodies of kids.
-which would be the fondest hope of Hamas. Hamas WANTS dead palestinian children- almost as much as it wants dead Israelis and dead Israeli children.

Judging from Israeli video of Hamas rocket launch locations, you're right. They want the dead children propaganda at all costs. Sad.

vision · Post by **vision** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:21 pm

CUDA wrote:
vision wrote:ITT: People who think a governing body are "terrorists."
so are you saying a governing body CANNOT be terrorists?

I'm saying that using it makes you a tool. It's an easy label to stick on someone you want to call a "bad guy," and that type of rhetoric restricts intellectual thought. Given that hundreds of Palestinian citizens (women, children, and elderly) have been slaughtered in the past couple weeks you can similarly call the Israeli government "terrorists." Tossing around that word is a bad habit and the sign of a weak mind. The situation is much more complex than Israel = good guys, Gaza = bad guys.

Spidey wrote:There is no exclusion of “governing bodies” in the definition of terrorist.

There are literally dozens of definitions for the word terrorist. Take your pick. But ask yourself if simply dropping an emotionally charged buzzword on a decades old conflict helps anyone develop a better understanding of the situation.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:33 pm

This is the definition I have always used…

Any group, organization or individual that uses violence to affect political change.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:34 pm

vision wrote:
CUDA wrote:
vision wrote:ITT: People who think a governing body are "terrorists."
so are you saying a governing body CANNOT be terrorists?
I'm saying that using it makes you a tool. It's an easy label to stick on someone you want to call a "bad guy," and that type of rhetoric restricts intellectual thought. Given that hundreds of Palestinian citizens (women, children, and elderly) have been slaughtered in the past couple weeks you can similarly call the Israeli government "terrorists." Tossing around that word is a bad habit and the sign of a weak mind. The situation is much more complex than Israel = good guys, Gaza = bad guys.

Well this is second time you have said Israel = 'terrorist' in this thread. In just your second post into the conversation you invoked that 'weak minded' tactic...I guess that makes you a power tool.

vision · Post by **vision** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:49 pm

Will Robinson wrote:Well this is second time you have said Israel = 'terrorist' in this thread.

Well you all agree the things they do are no different than what a terrorist does, right? Even Spidey agrees, per his definition. IDF = Terrorists. That's what we call people who spread terror and kill innocent civilians, right?

Please continue wiggling around the truth.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:55 pm

vision wrote: Given that hundreds of Palestinian citizens (women, children, and elderly) have been slaughtered in the past couple weeks you can similarly call the Israeli government "terrorists." Tossing around that word is a bad habit and the sign of a weak mind.

So you are saying the Japanese were nothing more than terrorist when they bombed and killed innocent civilians during WW2. Like wise the Germans when they bombed London. America was of course committing acts of terror when we bombed Japanese and German cities. War is one huge act of terror and the one who does the best terrorizing wins. Evidently vision, with your usual troll replies, conveniently overlook at who started the blitzkrieg. With your superior world view, you would rather have Israel do nothing, just like you would of had the Brits do nothing when London was bombed. Sadly Govts cannot remain passive while their citizens are threatened and die.

I suggest you look a the Gaza history. If you do you will see at one time Israel controlled the Gaza strip, then ceded it to the Palestinians :

HaHitnatkut; in the Disengagement Plan Implementation Law), also known as "Gaza expulsion" and "Hitnatkut", was the withdrawal of the Israeli army from Gaza, and the dismantling of all Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip in 2005. Four small settlements in the northern West Bank were also evacuated.

The disengagement was proposed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government on June 6, 2004 and enacted in August 2005. Those Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days.[1] The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.

In gratitude the Palestinians voted in Hamas as their Govt which started the whole train wreck we have today. I have to ask you, if instead of Hamas, a responsible group of non-terrorist orientated people were voted in as govt. leaders, would we be seeing children dying there today? I suspect with a responsible govt, the Israeli's would of worked well with Palestine.
As long as the Palestinian leadership proclaims the desire to wipe Israel off the map, lobbing thousands of inaccurate missiles at Israel, I can find no remorse for the Palestinians. They have the govt they chose and now are paying the price for it.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:01 pm

But vision, do you define Israel’s goal as political change or self-defense?

I don’t agree with Israel’s tactics, at times, but I do see a difference.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:01 pm

vision wrote: Well you all agree the things they do are no different than what a terrorist does, right? Even Spidey agrees, per his definition. IDF = Terrorists. That's what we call people who spread terror and kill innocent civilians, right?

Please continue wiggling around the truth.

Stop wiggling yourself. Hamas is using non-accurate rockets and missiles to saturate areas and cause...well mass terror. Israel selectively targets areas where Hamas leadership is known to live and area that missile fire comes from. Israel does not hide armaments in schools, Hamas does. Hamas starts the conflict and when Israel responds, 5th column people like you try to paint Israel as the aggressor. Nice try vision...now tell us again how the Israeli's are the terrorists.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:09 pm

lets see what the difference between the two "governments" approach in this conflict.

Hostages:
Hamas kills 3. and makes no effort to find those that killed the teens.
Israel kills 1. Israel finds and prosecutes the person who did the killing.

Weapons:
Hamas shoots thousands of rockets indiscriminately into Israel with no warning while hiding their weapons in Homes, Schools, Hospitals. so that any retaliation will have maximum civilian casualties

Israel uses precision weapons, Calls the people before the attack, drops leaflets before the attack, and employs the tactic of "knocking on the door" where they effectually knock on the roof of the target 5 minutes before the bomb goes off to allow those that wish, to escape.

here's an interesting thought though. typically in this country the left LOVEs to label people, you're a racist, or a homophobe. why aren't those that oppose Israel labeled as anti-Semites by the left?

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:10 pm

The Israelis were terrorists, back at the outset, when THEY were vastly outnumbered and politically isolated. It's a matter of the tactics being used to fit to the disparity in force available. What needs to be sorted out, once and for all, is a long-term plan for the REGION. It's clear that what has morphed into place since the inception of the State of Israel is just a recipe for ongoing violence, attacks, terrorism, and instability which serves no entity in the region well(at least in the long run). Some Israelis according to their press, seemed absolutely aghast when Kerry suggested expanding peace negotiations to include Qatar, Saudi Arabia and others. Guess what, they have a say, too. If not, you haven't really fixed the overall problem.
Still, from my viewpoint on the Atlantic Coast of the US, all I really care is that the US stay as far away from the whole mess to the greatest extent possible. We have NOTHING to win. Nothing.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:12 pm

CUDA wrote:why aren't those that oppose Israel labeled as anti-Semites by the left?

because Palestinians are Semitic, too, perhaps?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:18 pm

callmeslick wrote:The Israelis were terrorists, back at the outset, when THEY were vastly outnumbered and politically isolated.

And what were we when we invaded America. H ow you think the British viewed us during the American revolution? So what is the point of your statement?

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:28 pm

woodchip wrote:
callmeslick wrote:The Israelis were terrorists, back at the outset, when THEY were vastly outnumbered and politically isolated.
And what were we when we invaded America. H ow you think the British viewed us during the American revolution? So what is the point of your statement?

the point is that using 'terrorist' as some sort of blanket condemnation, an untouchable evil, one misses almost everything. Terrorism is merely the base level military tactic of complete desperation, the only true resort of the vastly overpowered and outnumbered. What one needs to evaluate is the validity of the grievance that got them to that point, and start looking real hard at nuance, because seldom is one side absolutely blameless.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:20 pm

Solving all the layers of conflict over there is not an easy thing to pin down.

However, deciding on a few fundamental absolutes shouldn't be hard at all...yet a lot of you seem to refuse to constrain yourselves to stay within the fundamental.
Israel must be allowed to remain a sovereign nation and no longer be expected to put up with the degree of violence that it is, and has been, for many years.

Do you all agree to that much?

If so then please check your opinion using logic as a benchmark and reconcile it with the decades long status quo of enduring multiple forms of murder, attempted murder and kidnapping we have helped force on Israel. Causing these things to continue.
We in the west, who don't have to live it, and by those who use the Palestinians as pawns in a racist persecution pursued under the guise of a 'territorial dispute' that began at least 1000 years before Jesus was born are causing this situation!

If you want to stand on the centuries old territorial dispute, or religious justifications as rationale for your position you might as well say that all men should extract vengeance or seek retribution for all women for the thing Eve did in the garden with the apple!

And stop trying to confuse yourselves or others because it really is of no consequence to establishing the fundamental conditions of the peaceful end goal that the Palestinians have, and continue to, suffer via retaliation by Israel.
It isn't in dispute that the Israelis have served up their share of violence. A solution must be found regardless of the back and forth...if you want to end the game completely why bicker about the score on the scoreboard?!?

What is in 'silent dispute' by some of you apparently is the importance of the fact that since 1948 Israel has been, legally, a sovereign country!
Because if it is to be recognized by you as such, unlike any other country to be effected by our influence/power, we are imposing impossible conditions on them that have created this seemingly endless cycle of violence. Conditions we would never put up with ourselves. I think, if not for wanting cheap oil, we would have helped the Israelis put and end to the conflict around the same time we were kissing OPEC ass to end the oil crisis in the 70's instead...

So start by answering the simple question. Does Israel count as a sovereign, autonomous nation of the world?
If so then draw the line where a nation of the world may defend itself. Regardless of all the wrong things we Americans have done we absolutely demand our right to self defense. It is a fundamental necessity that we recognize that as a base line for all nations, ally and enemy alike.

If Canada and Great Britain tried to tell us that, although Russia was financing the people of Mexico who lay claim to our land based on genealogy and myth and so Mexico launching rockets and blowing up our bus stations and kidnapping our children etc. was as much our fault as it was theirs since the whole territorial dispute is still in effect...says them...
Well I think you can bet Mexico would be toast and we would tell Canada and the Brits to piss off!

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:31 pm

callmeslick wrote:
CUDA wrote:why aren't those that oppose Israel labeled as anti-Semites by the left?
because Palestinians are Semitic, too, perhaps?

ah yes, but by definition antisemitic applies ONLY to the Jews

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:39 pm

Flabby Chick wrote:Took my daughter to her classmate's funeral yesterday, he was killed whilst uncovering the vast network of tunnels in the northern part of Gaza. I'll not try to make you see my point of view, because if i remember the DBB from years ago, most are pretty set in their ways. I'll just say, a terrorist organisation is firing thousands of rockets into my country, constantly, not just over the last two terrible weeks but since we pulled out in '05, and we are, at the moment, hell bent on stopping them...just like any other country would.

Stay safe, Flabby.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:59 am

Will Robinson wrote:Solving all the layers of conflict over there is not an easy thing to pin down.

agreed.

However, deciding on a few fundamental absolutes shouldn't be hard at all...yet a lot of you seem to refuse to constrain yourselves to stay within the fundamental.
Israel must be allowed to remain a sovereign nation and no longer be expected to put up with the degree of violence that it is, and has been, for many years.

sure, but sovereign nations are not free to take the water supply for 3 nations, nor are they free to annex land wholesale over a 50 year period. There is a very real question around the legitimacy of the State of Israel as currently structured. Either they wish to control ALL the land they currently do, and allow all residents to vote(one-state solution), or they have to address 50 years of grievances. That is an absolute for me.

Do you all agree to that much?

see above.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:30 am

I look at it very differently than most I think. They can trace their heritage and inheritance of that land all the way back to Abraham. Provenance that cannot be beat. The only reason they lost that land over and over and eventually exiled was because of foreign invaders constantly contending for it. The settlement and ancient structures all being built by their descendants. In my mind that gives them legal right to all of it. There is still the plight of the Palestinian but like I said earlier, that would not be the case if not for extremist agitators using them. The truth is that most every nation over their refuses to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That is the problem. Has Israel over the years become heavy-handed? Of course they have, but only in the face of incessant provocation.

Spidey · Post by **Spidey** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:02 am

flip wrote:They can trace their heritage and inheritance of that land all the way back to Abraham.

Yea, when they committed genocide and stole it from someone else.

Just saying….you know…the point is…Israel exists so let's just deal with it.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:38 am

Yeah, but your talking about when the world went from nomadic to civilization. Somebody had to be the one and they were it. Not only that, there is none other people like Israel on the whole Earth. They are an ancient people who even being dispersed into all the surrounding nations, still retained their religious and cultural identity to this day. The Law that came from them still exists to this day and good luck ever removing it. I don't see them as having stolen anything. At a time when the whole region was full of wanderers, they established something that still exists to this day.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:58 am

callmeslick wrote:..
sure, but sovereign nations are not free to take the water supply for 3 nations, nor are they free to annex land wholesale over a 50 year period. There is a very real question around the legitimacy of the State of Israel as currently structured. Either they wish to control ALL the land they currently do, and allow all residents to vote(one-state solution), or they have to address 50 years of grievances. That is an absolute for me.

You are trying to have it both ways and that is why it goes on and on.

The fundamental is, regardless of any disputes over water etc.: Does Israel have a right to defend against attacks on its civilian population regardless of the grievances the attackers hold?
Or are you suggesting they forfeit the right to self defense because you find their claim to be a nation is invalid as you implied?

Mexico claims we have done similar to them. We simply tell them to piss off...they lost the war.
If other nations tried to use their claim as means to force us to behave differently I don't think we would put up with it.

Israel used to put up with it probably because they thought going alone was too risky and our support was much more threatening to her enemies back in the day. Now we arent so steadfast and she isnt so dependant on others for might. The war is inevitable and we don't abandon our ally just because we have let the conflict fester for decades under our marginal control and turn into a geopolitical back and forth that we all tried to profit from at the expense of the two factions at war with each other. We outsiders started this as much as team Isaac or team Ishmael.
It should be game over time. Our ally is going to clean house (hopefully) and we should be there for her. While they do the ground work Kerry should be over there telling Iran and the other vultures to back off or things go badly for them. Instead he is begging Israel to continue the status quo that led to the blow up # 3,459 and counting...

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:33 am

flip wrote:I look at it very differently than most I think. They can trace their heritage and inheritance of that land all the way back to Abraham. Provenance that cannot be beat.

except the same can be said of any members of ANY Abrahamic religion, if you look at the geneology of natives to the region. If anything, the current Israeli populace has a more tenuous hold, as most are Europeans from the past 10 generations or so.

The only reason they lost that land over and over and eventually exiled was because of foreign invaders constantly contending for it. The settlement and ancient structures all being built by their descendants. In my mind that gives them legal right to all of it. There is still the plight of the Palestinian but like I said earlier, that would not be the case if not for extremist agitators using them. The truth is that most every nation over their refuses to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That is the problem. Has Israel over the years become heavy-handed? Of course they have, but only in the face of incessant provocation.

why was the provocation started, or deemed necessary. That question is both valid, and necessary to consider here.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:36 am

Will Robinson wrote:
callmeslick wrote:..
sure, but sovereign nations are not free to take the water supply for 3 nations, nor are they free to annex land wholesale over a 50 year period. There is a very real question around the legitimacy of the State of Israel as currently structured. Either they wish to control ALL the land they currently do, and allow all residents to vote(one-state solution), or they have to address 50 years of grievances. That is an absolute for me.
You are trying to have it both ways and that is why it goes on and on.

The fundamental is, regardless of any disputes over water etc.: Does Israel have a right to defend against attacks on its civilian population regardless of the grievances the attackers hold?
Or are you suggesting they forfeit the right to self defense because you find their claim to be a nation is invalid as you implied?

Mexico claims we have done similar to them. We simply tell them to piss off...they lost the war.

and, since it isn't a big enough deal for Mexico to fight over, there it stays. Not the dynamic in the Middle East. At all.
as for the rest.....if you think, in the long run, that Israel is going to 'clean house for us', you are sadly mistaken. Funny, I've heard the same claim made by the pro-Israeli war hawks over here for my entire lifetime, and nothing has been 'cleaned' yet. Just an ongoing tarbaby situation that tends to suck the US in.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:40 am

oh, and to the title of the thread: if, indeed there is a God, I'm betting he/she isn't blessing ANY of the participants.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:44 am

Yeah, I guess I should have been more specific but Will has already stated the obvious. The descendants of Isaac.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:46 am

flip wrote:Yeah, I guess I should have been more specific but Will has already stated the obvious. The descendants of Isaac.

so, are you ready to give preference and control to the folks in your neck of the woods with the oldest claim to the land? Let them know next time you go up to the casinos.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 9:54 am

callmeslick wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:...Mexico claims we have done similar to them. We simply tell them to piss off...they lost the war.
and, since it isn't a big enough deal for Mexico to fight over, there it stays. Not the dynamic in the Middle East. At all.

So, to keep it in context...*IF* Mexico decided it was enough to fight over then america would lose its right to self defense as a nation?! Our claim to be sovereign would be illegitimate? Or was your bringing that up just a way to not address the fundamental point I raised...avoiding the basic question that I have now asked again...

And that "dynamic in the middle east" that is exactly what I've been describing. outside players creating a perpetual slow burn for their own interests...all the while telling the people on fire to keep it up...but not too much...slowly burn please so we can get all our marshmallows on the stick first.

callmeslick wrote:...as for the rest.....if you think, in the long run, that Israel is going to 'clean house for us', you are sadly mistaken. Funny, I've heard the same claim made by the pro-Israeli war hawks over here for my entire lifetime, and nothing has been 'cleaned' yet. Just an ongoing tarbaby situation that tends to suck the US in.

I never said anything about them cleaning house FOR US. Why do you always misrepresent the point?
I'm suggesting they continue to root out the threat and we stand by and keep the bullies from attacking them while they are hip deep in THEIR housecleaning.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:04 am

Will Robinson wrote:
callmeslick wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:...Mexico claims we have done similar to them. We simply tell them to piss off...they lost the war.
and, since it isn't a big enough deal for Mexico to fight over, there it stays. Not the dynamic in the Middle East. At all.
So, to keep it in context...*IF* Mexico decided it was enough to fight over then america would lose its right to self defense as a nation?!

no, but Mexico would have the basis for the battle on some moral ground.

Our claim to be sovereign would be illegitimate? Or was your bringing that up just a way to not address the fundamental point I raised...avoiding the basic question that I have now asked again...

our sovereignity does not justify taking land from another sovereign nation or group. The claim wouldn't be illegitimate, but the practice would be, and thus not covered by the claim of sovereign status as some sort of blanket excuse. The fact is that we haven't acted that way in over 100 years, and if we started now, I would expect some serious push-back.

I never said anything about them cleaning house FOR US. Why do you always misrepresent the point?
I'm suggesting they continue to root out the threat and we stand by and keep the bullies from attacking them while they are hip deep in THEIR housecleaning.

no matter how you word it, it hasn't happened before, and won't now.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:06 am

Will Robinson wrote:Our ally is going to clean house (hopefully) and we should be there for her. While they do the ground work Kerry should be over there telling Iran...

this is what I extrapolate to, Will. Sure, they aren't doing it for us, you suggest they do it with us. Worse, if anything. We gain nothing, risk everything and, as usual, stick our nose into matters which are not ours to meddle in. Why the feck should 'we' be contacting Iran? Wait until you get Saudi Arabia riled up and see what 'influence' we have then.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:20 am

That doesn't even apply Slick. Those people have long been displaced. Israel is not.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:24 am

flip wrote:That doesn't even apply Slick. Those people have long been displaced. Israel is not.

Jews were largely displaced to Europe for FAR longer than Native Americans were displaced to 'reservations'. The Nation of Israel was a creation, not of the regional residents, but of EUROPE. That is almost the root cause of the problem, frankly. No one asked Palestinian Arabs and Christians if they wanted to abandon their farms and orchards. Worse, that takeover keeps going to this day(called the cute term-'annexation'). What has transpired in the name of Israeli sovereignity is little short of a 50 year war crime. Not to excuse much of the response, but the response from the Palestinians is one of pure desperation, which is understandable, to my eyes.

callmeslick · Post by **callmeslick** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:28 am

I have to be honest.......every time I hear "God bless the IDF" or "Christians must fight for Israel's survival", the part of me that was raised Christian wishes to throw up a little. Then, the embarassment felt for REAL Christians kicks in....especially, the Palestinian Christians who came to the US to avoid that regional mess that happened to their homeland.

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:29 am

I can't even figure out what point you are trying to make Slick. So, you don't think Israel has a right to exist either? You think Israel does not have the right to exist on land that it initially developed? You need to do some of your own personal research. I happen to know for fact that that Palestinians were put right where they are now for spite and the Temple Mount that the Son of King David, Solomon built was denied for the same reason. Initially, the Israelites had free and open borders and were funneling money into Palestine to grow it's economy. This ended up being completely unproductive because the Palestinians are being used by people who hate Israel and refuse to even acknowledge it's existence. How the heck can you reason with people like that? No matter what, there could never be any peace, but it's not because of Israel. It's because Israel's enemies wont to completely annihilate her from the Earth! Wake up dude.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:30 am

callmeslick wrote:..
our sovereignity does not justify taking land from another sovereign nation or group. The claim wouldn't be illegitimate, but the practice would be, and thus not covered by the claim of sovereign status as some sort of blanket excuse. The fact is that we haven't acted that way in over 100 years, and if we started now, I would expect some serious push-back.

And if that 'push back' became thousands of attempts to kill your civilian population would you not be justified in going after the attackers..regardless of the validity of their territorial dispute? Usually when nations dispute territory they are either negotiating at a table or at war. They aren't 'sort of at war' but outsiders can tell you when you are allowed to shoot back.

callmeslick wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:Our ally is going to clean house (hopefully) and we should be there for her. While they do the ground work Kerry should be over there telling Iran...
this is what I extrapolate to, Will. Sure, they aren't doing it for us, you suggest they do it with us. Worse, if anything. We gain nothing, risk everything and, as usual, stick our nose into matters which are not ours to meddle in. Why the feck should 'we' be contacting Iran? Wait until you get Saudi Arabia riled up and see what 'influence' we have then.

How can you say it is not a matter that we have a stake in...a responsibility for...?
We did this! All of us...initially Europe and the US. Then the Iranians (where do you think all these terrorist groups got their start? The Iranian guard staffed and created most of them!

Why contact Iran?!? Are you paying any attention to whats been going on for decades?
And now North Korea selling arms to Hamas...Turkey getting in the mix...

Those are the things Kerry should be there talking about. Standing between those gasoline deliveries and the fire!

Instead of addressing the root of the current problem you are advocating for a continuance of the conditions that led us here and keep falling back on disputes that are older than Islam itself as an excuse to ignore the reality!

flip · Post by **flip** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:32 am

But what your dismissing is that that annexation at the end of WW2 was just in that it restored claim to the original possessors. Not lightly I might add, considering 6 million had just been wiped out. The choice seemed easy to me. Give them their home back.

EDIT: Cause it should be more than obvious, they aint goin nowhere

. That's the most resilient people that have ever existed on this Earth. Where all others have disappeared and been bred out in just a few hundred years, they have been kept together. Want proof of God and prophecy? look at Israel.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:29 am

callmeslick wrote:I have to be honest.......every time I hear "God bless the IDF" or "Christians must fight for Israel's survival", the part of me that was raised Christian wishes to throw up a little. Then, the embarassment felt for REAL Christians kicks in....especially, the Palestinian Christians who came to the US to avoid that regional mess that happened to their homeland.

your missing the point TOTALLY