Really Stupid Things Pelosi says

[Will Robinson]

Ah yes, the "might makes right" argument. It's a great way to make friends!

Well might made the Holocaust.
Then might killed Hitler and made Israel.
What would you make, besides whining, to solve the problem?

[vision]

What would you make, besides whining, to solve the problem?

If Israel wanted peace then they would meet the Palestinians half-way. There are a number of things of the table but they require Israel to make sacrifices, and god forbid the chosen people make a single concession.

[Will Robinson]

What would you make, besides whining, to solve the problem?

If Israel wanted peace then they would meet the Palestinians half-way. There are a number of things of the table but they require Israel to make sacrifices, and god forbid the chosen people make a single concession.

Which planet does this 'Israel' you speak of exist on? All this time I was talking about the Israel here on earth and apparently, if you are to be believed, I was talking about the wrong one!

[woodchip]

What would you make, besides whining, to solve the problem?

If Israel wanted peace then they would meet the Palestinians half-way. There are a number of things of the table but they require Israel to make sacrifices, and god forbid the chosen people make a single concession.

I guess you forgot how Israel gave control of Gaza and the west bank to the Palestinians. I guess you also forgot how Israel stopped settlement building and then tore down settlements as a part of a prior peace accord. What did the Israels get in return? Thousands of rockets raining down on them.

[vision]

I guess you forgot how Israel gave control of Gaza and the west bank to the Palestinians.

At no time in history has Palestine been given any significant measure of sovereignty from Israel, who maintains complete control over their airspace, seaports, and a 3 mile margin within the border of Gaza. I challenge you to find any evidence that Israel has made a serious attempt at peace with the Palestinians.

[Spidey]

One only has to imagine what would be “raining down” on Israel’s cities if that control was not in place.

One also has to imagine how things would be today if they had not voted in Hamas.

[Krom]

If Israel wanted peace then they would meet the Palestinians half-way. There are a number of things of the table but they require Israel to make sacrifices, and god forbid the chosen people make a single concession.

Please define the half-way point of "Israel must cease to exist as a sovereign nation and all Jews must die and go to Hell, no compromises, no exceptions.".

[CUDA]

If Israel wanted peace then they would meet the Palestinians half-way. There are a number of things of the table but they require Israel to make sacrifices, and god forbid the chosen people make a single concession.

Please define the half-way point of "Israel must cease to exist as a sovereign nation and all Jews must die and go to Hell, no compromises, no exceptions.".

The half way point would be if the Palestinians did the same thing

[vision]

Please define the half-way point of "Israel must cease to exist as a sovereign nation and all Jews must die and go to Hell, no compromises, no exceptions."

Sure, you can take a single person's quote and blanket an entire people with it or you can look at reality. Palestine has been working on a stable unity government for quite some time and surely you remember Palestine asking to be recognized as nation not too long ago (something Israel and the US only pay lip-service to since neither really want peace). Israel does not want a stable Palestinian government. They don't want any international recognition of Palestine and will do everything they can to create instability. For instance, after perpetual occupation, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving the population to have their very first election (yes, that recently). They elected Hamas in 2006, which Israel responded to with a blockade in 2007. So much for sovereignty! Palestinians want the same rights as every other people, one of those being freedom from the oppression of another state, something they have never tasted with Israel's occupation. There are many things Israel can do to increase the quality of life for Palestinians that would make life better for everyone on both sides, but alas, that's not part of the bigger game of Western domination in that part of the Middle East.

If anyone wants a solid read on the current situation, here is an excellent reddit post by a Palestinian using only Israeli sources. It is a little disturbing.

Also, author John Green give a 4-minute non-biased overview of the Israel/Palestine conflict and offers the best known solution.

[woodchip]

Please define the half-way point of "Israel must cease to exist as a sovereign nation and all Jews must die and go to Hell, no compromises, no exceptions."

Sure, you can take a single person's quote and blanket an entire people with it or you can look at reality. Palestine has been working on a stable unity government for quite some time and surely you remember Palestine asking to be recognized as nation not too long ago (something Israel and the US only pay lip-service to since neither really want peace). Israel does not want a stable Palestinian government. They don't want any international recognition of Palestine and will do everything they can to create instability. For instance, after perpetual occupation, Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 leaving the population to have their very first election (yes, that recently). They elected Hamas in 2006, which Israel responded to with a blockade in 2007. So much for sovereignty! Palestinians want the same rights as every other people, one of those being freedom from the oppression of another state, something they have never tasted with Israel's occupation. There are many things Israel can do to increase the quality of life for Palestinians that would make life better for everyone on both sides, but alas, that's not part of the bigger game of Western domination in that part of the Middle East.

If anyone wants a solid read on the current situation, here is an excellent reddit post by a Palestinian using only Israeli sources. It is a little disturbing.

Also, author John Green give a 4-minute non-biased overview of the Israel/Palestine conflict and offers the best known solution.

Lets see, the people voted in Hamas, a political organization whose avowed purpose is to wipe Israel off the map. After getting voted in what do they do but start rocket attacks and sending in suicide bombers into Israel. This is akin to Canada voting in Al Queda as their govt. and then Canada starts sending rockets and suicide bombers into the US. Do you think we would not blockade Canada? A responsible govt. works to promote the welfare of their people, not use them as fodder to try and make a point.

The real question you have to ask vision, if the Gaza Palestinians voted in a govt that was willing to work with Israel as a good neighbor, would we be seeing the conflict we see today? I think not and thus your premise is flawed.

[Will Robinson]

Hamas' primary function is to ensure a reasonable Palestinian government doesn't succeed.
They have been quite effective in their function so far.
Just because some of the ambulances they provide actually carry injured instead of weapons doesn't make them the volunteer paramedics of the region. It means they are savvy enough to manipulate people as well as strap bombs to them.

[flip]

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for Israel. They try to prevent Hamas from being elected in until 2005. To prevent legitimacy being given to a terrorist organization whose sole purpose for coming into being was a vowed destruction of Israel. Israel relents in 2005, what happens? They vote in Hamas.

[Spidey]

Yea, most people are their own worst enemies.

[vision]

Lets see, the people voted in Hamas, a political organization whose avowed purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.

Oh everyone so loves that line. It's like you don't even have an original thought, you just regurgitate and mis-attribute.

This is akin to Canada voting in Al Queda as their govt. and then Canada starts sending rockets and suicide bombers into the US.

Yes, it would be like that if the US was formerly known as Canada, we had complete economic and military control over today's Canada for 60 years, keep them in gross poverty, and killed scores of Canadians on a regular basis. Are goddamn stupid woodchip? Seriously?

I know you didn't read any of my posts above (you wouldn't want to challenge your ignorance I'm sure) so here is the headline of one so you can't mistake it: Hamas deploys 600-strong force to prevent rocket fire at Israel. (Source: Times of Israel) Remember: only about a quarter of all rockets that get launched come from Hamas. There are many factions in Palestine. You probably keep yourself ignorant of this since it requires thinking and you can't attach a buzzword or someone else's rhetoric to it.

The real question you have to ask vision, if the Gaza Palestinians voted in a govt that was willing to work with Israel as a good neighbor, would we be seeing the conflict we see today?

Yes we would. Remember Yasser Arafat, Palestinian leader who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984? He made great strides bridging the gap between these two peoples up until Netanyahu was elected. He wasn't perfect, but there was progress until Israel's right wing squashed it. Then there was Mahmoud Abbas who was practically a puppet for the US and Israel:

With Israeli forces arresting and restricting the movement of other candidates, Hamas' boycott of the election, and his campaign being given 94% of the Palestinian electoral campaign coverage on TV, Abbas' election was virtually ensured,[23] and on 9 January Abbas was elected with 62% of the vote as President of the Palestinian National Authority.

But even this was not enough for Israel. And remember the 2011 US veto of Palestinian state recognition in the UN? Yeah "2-state-solution" my ass. And as much as everyone (including me) hates Hamas they have been trying to form a unity government in Palestine. Of course, too many people with interests other than the welfare of Palestinians don't want a unity government to happen.

[flip]

I myself would think they just have hardly a friend in the world.

[flip]

Vision wrote:

"Oh everyone so loves that line. It's like you don't even have an original thought, you just regurgitate and mis-attribute."

This is why I find you inconsistent and disingenuous . Nothing exists unless pursued or spoken. You yourself say that allowing Israel to become a nation was the worst thing done in history. My kind of history, that was bought by self-pursuit and multiple sources. Now, what would happen if I just sat around and didn't say nothin'?

[Will Robinson]

vision you have a very generous memory of Arafat's desire to 'bridge a gap'. President Clinton and his team have a very different description of his willingness to resolve the conflict. Clinton did the best anyone could do and got burned for it.
And, if I recall correctly, Arafat walked away from the negotiations and the best deal ever offered and it had 90% of everything he had asked for and the future was open to settle the rest. Instead he took a hard line position demanding sole possession of Jerusalem. No doubt because he knew that position would blow up the whole process.

Not to mention the militant factions behind his tentative grasp on power were always refusing to accept the deals he did make. They would continue bombings etc. in spite of Arafats 'agreements'.

So he wasn't very willing to find peace and he did not represent the violent palestinian and foreign factions with much authority from them. He was a useful tool to maintain the status quo.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Now, what would happen if I just sat around and didn't say nothin'?

The double negative would add emphasis, but would be grammatically incorrect!

[CUDA]

Lets see, the people voted in Hamas, a political organization whose avowed purpose is to wipe Israel off the map.

Oh everyone so loves that line. It's like you don't even have an original thought, you just regurgitate and mis-attribute

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

It's in writing.... in Hamas's charter!!!!!!!!!!
How do you miss-attribute something that was put in writing by the people that it was attributed to????????

It's fact. And obviously a fact that you are willfully ignorant of

[Spidey]

That “leader” who was interviewed on Charley Rose the other night, made it pretty clear.

[vision]

vision you have a very generous memory of Arafat's desire to 'bridge a gap'.

He did more than anyone before him and that's the point I was making. There is much more to the story, and I'm not here to write a book just to answer flip's statement.

It's in writing.... in Hamas's charter!!!!!!!!!!

Educate yourself. Jew's use one piece of fiction to justify their occupation, Muslims use a different work of fiction to justify their actions. They are both idiots. However, one is much, much, more cruel to the other, and that bully happens to be the one people on this forum love to ass-kiss. Pucker up sweet-cheeks.

That “leader” that was interviewed on Charley Rose the other night, made it pretty clear.

Sorry, I don't own a television.

Many Muslims in many countries believe they are entitled to the world, just like the Jews feel entitled. It's one thing to use economic and military might to hold your own against them and live in peace. It is a whole other thing when you oppress a people the way Israel oppresses Palestine. It's basically the definition of genocide.

[Tunnelcat]

That “leader” that was interviewed on Charley Rose the other night, made it pretty clear.

Sorry, I don't own a television.

Many Muslims in many countries believe they are entitled to the world, just like the Jews feel entitled. It's one thing to use economic and military might to hold your own against them and live in peace. It is a whole other thing when you oppress a people the way Israel oppresses Palestine. It's basically the definition of genocide.

Hamas does not want to live in peace with a Jewish State next door, period, ever. Meshaal pretty much laid that down as non-negotiable. How should the Jews deal with that stance?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-hamas- ... ish-state/

[woodchip]

Many Muslims in many countries believe they are entitled to the world, just like the Jews feel entitled.

Last time I checked the Jews only want Israel...not the rest of the world.

[Sergeant Thorne]

That's beside the point, woodchip, the Jews are obviously worse. You just have to have your head in the right place (your ass) to see it. Vision definitely has kool-aid stains on his lips.

[Krom]

Lets see, the people voted in Hamas, a political organization whose avowed purpose is to wipe Israel off the map. After getting voted in what do they do but start rocket attacks and sending in suicide bombers into Israel. This is akin to Canada voting in Al Queda as their govt. and then Canada starts sending rockets and suicide bombers into the US. Do you think we would not blockade Canada? A responsible govt. works to promote the welfare of their people, not use them as fodder to try and make a point.

The real question you have to ask vision, if the Gaza Palestinians voted in a govt that was willing to work with Israel as a good neighbor, would we be seeing the conflict we see today? I think not and thus your premise is flawed.

It isn't very often that woodchip and I agree on something. It is kind of alarming in a way, when it happens I usually end up wondering if I might be turning into a lunatic conservative extremist myself...

But basically yeah, if the Palestinians really wanted peace then there were probably better choices than Hamas to elect as their government. Of course reality can be a bit different and maybe it isn't all their fault for electing Hamas, because outside of Israel proper elections in the middle east don't exactly count for much. You know, like Saddam winning the Iraqi election with over 99% of the vote (the other <1% got gassed, along with any opposing candidates). It wouldn't surprise me if the only real options the majority of Palestinians had at the ballot were "Hamas" or "Death". Actually, knowing the region and local politics, it would surprise me if that wasn't the case.

[Top Gun]

It's in writing.... in Hamas's charter!!!!!!!!!!

Educate yourself.

That, uh, kinda proves Cuda's point.

[CUDA]

Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.

my personal favorite..........So lets talk about that meeting them "half way" again

[woodchip]

Yeah, you kinda want to be met halfway for it to work.

[vision]

It's in writing.... in Hamas's charter!!!!!!!!!!

Educate yourself.

That, uh, kinda proves Cuda's point.

Read closer

[Top Gun]

It's a single sentence. What else are we supposed to read into it?

[vision]

It's a single sentence. What else are we supposed to read into it?

Read the entire wiki article.

[Top Gun]

In contrast to this, Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar stated that any talk of the 1967 lines is "just a phase" until Hamas has a chance to "regain the land...even if we [Hamas] have to do so inch by inch."[10] Other Hamas leaders, including Ismail Haniyah and Khaled Meshaal have also stated repeatedly that "Palestine – from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, from its north to its south – is our land, our right, and our homeland. There will be no relinquishing or forsaking even an inch or small part of it,"[11] and that "we shall not relinquish the Islamic waqf on the land of Palestine, and Jerusalem shall not be divided into Western and Eastern Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a single united [city], and Palestine stretches from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River, and from Naqoura [Rosh Ha-Niqra] to Umm Al-Rashrash [Eilat] in the south."[12][13]

You were saying?

[vision]

You were saying?

Dr. Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh (the senior political leader of Hamas) claimed that Hamas has changed its views with time since the charter was issued in 1988...In 2006, Hamas proposed government programme, which stated that "the question of recognizing Israel is not the jurisdiction of one faction, nor the government, but a decision for the Palestinian people." However many remain sceptical of Hamas's new stance, and view it as a ploy to hide its true agenda, "but it is equally true that the “new” discourse of diluted religious content—to say nothing of the movement’s increasing pragmatism and flexibility in the political domain—reflects genuine and cumulative changes within Hamas."

You think just because a political group says one thing they can actually carry it out? You live in the USA, right? Anti-Israel rhetoric is standard boilerplate for Islamic countries. Do you seriously think Palestine with it's toy rockets can defeat Israel? And isn't that a good platform to run on when you are occupied by a hostile force? And why should Palestine recognize Israel if Israel does not recognize Palestine? Israel wants all the land to themselves, which is why they keep building on it and killing Palestinians. The prison known as the Gaza Strip is terribly inconvenient for Israel since they will eventually have to kill all the Palestinians so they can annex that too. They are off to a good start.

[callmeslick]

An elected member of the Israeli parliment, just the other day(and repeated on worldwide broadcasts in the days since) has called for:
1. the complete evacuation of Gaza city(hundreds of thousands of people), followed by demolition
2. the resettlement of those people in camps on the Sinai peninsula(in the damned desert).....starting to sound rather Nazi-esque yet?
3. only allowing resettlement of Gaza to persons who 'swear loyalty to Israel'......now, it's just plain creepy.
4. Israel will 'help' rebuild Gaza City if enough of the above qualified souls show up and sign up.


really? And, some of you wonder why you get dire statements from Palestinian leaders? And, some of you want to tell us how one-sided the morality of this region is? Sorry, I smell apartheid when it wafts my way, and it's been wafting this way from Israel for a while now.

[CUDA]

I have never heard Israel say they were going to "kill all the Palestinians" I have heard SEVERAL Arab governments make that claim against Israel however,

if I was Israel I would carry a big stick too.

[CUDA]

An elected member of the Israeli parliment, just the other day(and repeated on worldwide broadcasts in the days since) has called for:
1. the complete evacuation of Gaza city(hundreds of thousands of people), followed by demolition
2. the resettlement of those people in camps on the Sinai peninsula(in the damned desert).....starting to sound rather Nazi-esque yet?
3. only allowing resettlement of Gaza to persons who 'swear loyalty to Israel'......now, it's just plain creepy.
4. Israel will 'help' rebuild Gaza City if enough of the above qualified souls show up and sign up.


really? And, some of you wonder why you get dire statements from Palestinian leaders? And, some of you want to tell us how one-sided the morality of this region is? Sorry, I smell apartheid when it wafts my way, and it's been wafting this way from Israel for a while now.

link

[callmeslick]

was returning from some late-day errands with just that, CUDA. It's worse than I laid it out, actually.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rters.html


if someone here objects to the British press, there are roughly 45 other reputable news links.

[Will Robinson]

slick, what is your point?
Are we supposed to see some significant difference of some Jews with a desire for extreme reaction versus the extreme desires of Hamas that makes us rethink our belief that Israel has the right to respond the way they have?

[callmeslick]

my point, Will, is this. There is, by this historical juncture, a massive level of intolerance and hatred on ALL sides, not just ONE.

[Will Robinson]

my point, Will, is this. There is, by this historical juncture, a massive level of intolerance and hatred on ALL sides, not just ONE.

Is this one of those Captain Obvious commercials?