Silence the messenger, or else...

[Tunnelcat]

I'd like to know what our Christian brethren here think of this stance by the founder of Home Depot. Poor little ostracized rich guy. He's such a victim.

http://www.examiner.com/article/billion ... r-the-poor

[sigma]

In my opinion, here and Pope and billionaire both wrong. Pope made ​​a bad PR, and billionaire demonstrated that he wanted to spit on the believers. There are two categories of rich people - those who sincerely donate money to the church, and those who invest money in religion. Apparently, this billionaire is classified as those rich guys who invest money in the construction of churches or the restoration of churches, not because they believe in God, but then again, for their own PR.

[Tunnelcat]

Personally, I think the Pope is right in his message about helping the poor. He's a religious leader and he's only presenting the Biblical message to those who have forgotten it. Most of these billionaires are only assuaging their guilt at being filthy rich when they "donate" to charity. But there are a few who truly donate money to help people less fortunate, but they are in the minority. It's those who use "charity" as a tax dodge and a feel good measure that the Pope is targeting. I hope he doesn't back down.

So what say you CUDA? Thorne? How do you come to grips with your alliances to the God of money and the God of the people?

[vision]

Prosperity Gospel in 3...2...1...

[callmeslick]

followed by 'trickle on your head economics' in 4,5,6.....

[CUDA]

I don't follow the Pope, so I cannot speak for him

if you would like me to tell you what the Bible says about taking care of the poor then I'll interject.


and what EXACTLY is prosperity Christianity and how is it Biblical?

[callmeslick]

and what EXACTLY is prosperity Christianity and how is it Biblical?

sort of a popular modern populist type of Christianity, which holds that God's people will be prosperous on Earth. Not all that modern a concept, if one sees Calvinism for what it is. Is it biblical? There, you're likely out of my pay grade, but I suspect the biblical link is at best shaky.

[Spidey]

Some people grow weary of being scapegoats.

I have no real sympathy for one of the merchant class who helped screw the middle class, but on the other hand, I can understand his frustration.

[Tunnelcat]

According to the Wiki entry for Prosperity Theology, their doctrine relies in part on the Book of Malachi.

Bring to the storehouse a full tenth of what you earn so there will be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord All-Powerful. “I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour out all the blessings you need.

Now, I'm not an expert in Biblical theology, but I think somehow it's been twisted from bring part of your wealth to give to God so that you will be in His good graces for going to heaven, to mean that in order to please God, one MUST become wealthy. The meaning has been twisted to support the self-serving agenda of gaining wealth as an end to a means and idolatry.

When I got to the parts about personal empowerment and televangelism, yep, that fits with what goes on in those Evangelical mega churches and their rich pastors promoting wealth and success for oneself as a Godly act, especially for themselves. Come to think of it, personal empowerment is a tea party theme too.

Some people grow weary of being scapegoats.

I have no real sympathy for one of the merchant class who helped screw the middle class, but on the other hand, I can understand his frustration.

Poor baby. He's so wealthy he can afford to be a scapegoat. Take the blame with the fame. You can bet your bottom dollar that most of his wealth is going to his own enrichment and that of his kids. The rest is going to lower his taxes through a few charitable donations. There's nothing wrong with being wealthy. It's just that some really wealthy people aren't humble about it and they tend forget that others weren't so lucky in life.

[callmeslick]

Some people grow weary of being scapegoats.

I have no real sympathy for one of the merchant class who helped screw the middle class, but on the other hand, I can understand his frustration.

frustration? He's an ★■◆●. Let's keep matters simple when we can.

[CUDA]

According to the Wiki entry for Prosperity Theology, their doctrine relies in part on the Book of Malachi.

Bring to the storehouse a full tenth of what you earn so there will be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord All-Powerful. “I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour out all the blessings you need.

Now, I'm not an expert in Biblical theology, but I think somehow it's been twisted from bring part of your wealth to give to God so that you will be in His good graces for going to heaven, to mean that in order to please God, one MUST become wealthy. The meaning has been twisted to support the self-serving agenda of gaining wealth as an end to a means and idolatry.

When I got to the parts about personal empowerment and televangelism, yep, that fits with what goes on in those Evangelical mega churches and their rich pastors promoting wealth and success for oneself as a Godly act, especially for themselves. Come to think of it, personal empowerment is a tea party theme too.

Some people grow weary of being scapegoats.

I have no real sympathy for one of the merchant class who helped screw the middle class, but on the other hand, I can understand his frustration.

Poor baby. He's so wealthy he can afford to be a scapegoat. Take the blame with the fame. You can bet your bottom dollar that most of his wealth is going to his own enrichment and that of his kids. The rest is going to lower his taxes through a few charitable donations. There's nothing wrong with being wealthy. It's just that some really wealthy people aren't humble about it and they tend forget that others weren't so lucky in life.

never base your theology on one Line of the Bible.

and exactly what are all the blessing you need?????? don't see where he says he will make you wealthy

[CUDA]

if one sees Calvinism for what it is. Is it biblical?

I don't believe that True Calvinism is. the Bible is pretty clear on that matter

[Spidey]

Slick, don't use my text so you can insult someone, you can do that all by yourself!

[callmeslick]

Slick, don't use my text so you can insult someone, you can do that all by yourself!

needed your quote for context:you use frustrated, I use the word ★■◆●. I think mine fits the comment the individual made. Seriously, what sort of arrogant buffoon behaves in such a way, says such things, makes such threats? Let him keep his money and shove it. The Church will survive, the poor will be cared for and he can rot.

[Sergeant Thorne]

and what EXACTLY is prosperity Christianity and how is it Biblical?

sort of a popular modern populist type of Christianity, which holds that God's people will be prosperous on Earth. Not all that modern a concept, if one sees Calvinism for what it is. Is it biblical? There, you're likely out of my pay grade, but I suspect the biblical link is at best shaky.

The Biblical link isn't shaky at all, Slick! Jesus said that it is enough for a servant that he be like his master, and we all know that prosperity was the Lord's goal here on earth.

I'm sure the Revised Prosperity Version reads: "My Father has been amassing wealth until now, and I have been amassing wealth". That's why the Lord was so in favor of the buying and selling taking place in the temple.

[sigma]

At least, this billionaire is a representative of a private company, if I understand correctly. The most nasty, sometimes even government organizations invest money in religion, in order to look like patriots.
I remembered a funny story. One large customs built luxury Russian church right in front of the customs building. Of course, people were pleased that the state organization so concerned about the believers. But one day, special services conducted a surprise audit on this customs. You will not believe, from the windows of the customs flying wads of money, there is the whole lawn was strewn with money, as snow in the winter. After this incident, the people began to say that customs built this beautiful church in order to atone for their own sins.

[Tunnelcat]

According to the Wiki entry for Prosperity Theology, their doctrine relies in part on the Book of Malachi.

Bring to the storehouse a full tenth of what you earn so there will be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord All-Powerful. “I will open the windows of heaven for you and pour out all the blessings you need.

Now, I'm not an expert in Biblical theology, but I think somehow it's been twisted from bring part of your wealth to give to God so that you will be in His good graces for going to heaven, to mean that in order to please God, one MUST become wealthy. The meaning has been twisted to support the self-serving agenda of gaining wealth as an end to a means and idolatry.

When I got to the parts about personal empowerment and televangelism, yep, that fits with what goes on in those Evangelical mega churches and their rich pastors promoting wealth and success for oneself as a Godly act, especially for themselves. Come to think of it, personal empowerment is a tea party theme too.

Some people grow weary of being scapegoats.

I have no real sympathy for one of the merchant class who helped screw the middle class, but on the other hand, I can understand his frustration.

Poor baby. He's so wealthy he can afford to be a scapegoat. Take the blame with the fame. You can bet your bottom dollar that most of his wealth is going to his own enrichment and that of his kids. The rest is going to lower his taxes through a few charitable donations. There's nothing wrong with being wealthy. It's just that some really wealthy people aren't humble about it and they tend forget that others weren't so lucky in life.

never base your theology on one Line of the Bible.

and exactly what are all the blessing you need?????? don't see where he says he will make you wealthy

Don't ask me. I didn't come up with a whole new theology that makes people feel better about being filthy rich and under God's graces because of it based on only a few lines from the Bible.

[flip]

Just ask Mussolini how much persuasion the pope has over around 1.2 billion people. They allowed him the favor of the people as long as the Papal State was restored, and it was.

In 1938, Pope Pius XI addressed a group of visitors to the Vatican. There were some people, he said, who argued that the state should be all-powerful – "totalitarian". Such an idea, he went on, was absurd, not because individual liberty was too precious to be surrendered, but because "if there is a totalitarian regime – in fact and by right – it is the regime of the church, because man belongs totally to the church".

I imagine that most people do not realize that the Rule of Law is actually an ancient Catholic ideal, their idea being to bring the rule of God on Earth, through them.

The Pope told Mussolini that the church had long seen the need to "rein in the children of Israel" and to take "protective measures against their evil-doing". The Vatican and the fascist regime had many differences, but this they had in common.

Kertzer announces that the Catholic church is generally portrayed as the courageous opponent of fascism, but this is an exaggeration. There is a counter-tradition, John Cornwell's fine book, Hitler's Pope, on Pius XII (who succeeded Pius XI in 1939) exposed the Vatican's culpable passivity in the face of the wartime persecution of Italian Jews. But Kertzer describes something more fundamental than a church leader's strategic decision to protect his own flock rather than to speak up in defence of others. His argument, presented not as polemic but as gripping storytelling, is that much of fascist ideology was inspired by Catholic tradition – the authoritarianism, the intolerance of opposition and the profound suspicion of the Jews.

Nothing has been around longer than this "hidden hand." Through 2000 years, empires crumble and fall, but not the Catholic Church. They just remain.

[callmeslick]

wow, Flip, none of that was really even relevant.

[flip]

How was it not relevant? TC brought up a post about how billionaires are feeling pressured by remarks of the Pope and I show how the Pope has had great influence throughout history doing the same thing. So let me spell the big picture out for you. In this day and age, the Pope's remarks are making people look unfavorably towards the rich, Very foolish in my opinion, because they have the ability and means to move the economy. In the 20's and 30's, they did the same thing to the Jews. They supported Mussolini and all that came from it, for their own personal desire to be the only true representative of God's law on Earth.

[Spidey]

There is way too much hypocrisy in the church to take the Pope seriously, they criticize the rich, while they sit on billions.

Oh, but they give to the poor…yea but where did they get the money, it’s like when the government says it helps the poor…yea but with who’s money.

True charity can only come from someone that actually earned the money they are giving out, and when it’s not required.

[Tunnelcat]

There is way too much hypocrisy in the church to take the Pope seriously, they criticize the rich, while they sit on billions.

Oh, but they give to the poor…yea but where did they get the money, it’s like when the government says it helps the poor…yea but with who’s money.

True charity can only come from someone that actually earned the money they are giving out, and when it’s not required.

Touche' Spidey.