Cause and effect. Objective or subjective?

[Will Robinson]

January 6th a mob of people were motivated, directed, urged, instructed, etc to take over the capital. Weapons used, stockpiled. Planning in advance, etc etc.
This is the charge against Trump that is supported by many people. Certainly by the current administration and 99% of the press.

So, Iran has literally installed Hezbollah and adopted the then fledgling Hammas as a bit of a red headed step child. Yes they are Sunni not Shia but anyone who wants to ‘kill all the Jews’ can’t be all bad right?!?
They have stockpiled weapons, urged, instructed, motivated. Even neutered Arafat when he started talking peace and force fed Hamas to the Palestinian people as the new authority. Made Fatah party a mere figurehead that bowed in private to Hamas who bows to Iran.
Iran is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world and has never lost that status since they earned it.

So, if Trump is guilty and the proof is in his words…how the hell do you rationalize there is no evidence that Iran is guilty in the attack on Israel?!?
Go ahead, amuse me with your rationale to differentiate the two bodies of evidence.

[Tunnelcat]

Oh make no mistake. Iran is involved in this up to their necks. Egypt may have been involved too. They've given material and arms support to Hamas in the past via tunnels to their border. I don't see that anything has changed over the years since the war in '73.

[Vander]

The two situations aren’t comparable.

[Tunnelcat]

No, they're not. The proof is in his words actually recorded for posterity.

[TheWhat]

I couldn’t figure out whether to use the “false equivalency” or the “whataboutism” referee meme. Anyway, why would you want to make mental gymnastics relating stupid Americans claiming to fight for democracy by going against election results and religious zealots that think god wants them to behead people (unless it’s a hot Jewish chick then we can rape her first)?

Re-think. Different subject.

[Spidey]

I understand what you are saying Will.

But unless some legal body holds hearings into the possibility of Iran's involvement there will never be a comprehensive case to make.

[woodchip]

January 6th a mob of people were motivated, directed, urged, instructed, etc to take over the capital. Weapons used, stockpiled. Planning in advance, etc etc.
This is the charge against Trump that is supported by many people. Certainly by the current administration and 99% of the press.

So, Iran has literally installed Hezbollah and adopted the then fledgling Hammas as a bit of a red headed step child. Yes they are Sunni not Shia but anyone who wants to ‘kill all the Jews’ can’t be all bad right?!?
They have stockpiled weapons, urged, instructed, motivated. Even neutered Arafat when he started talking peace and force fed Hamas to the Palestinian people as the new authority. Made Fatah party a mere figurehead that bowed in private to Hamas who bows to Iran.
Iran is the largest exporter of terrorism in the world and has never lost that status since they earned it.

So, if Trump is guilty and the proof is in his words…how the hell do you rationalize there is no evidence that Iran is guilty in the attack on Israel?!?
Go ahead, amuse me with your rationale to differentiate the two bodies of evidence.

The only people who say Iran is not guilty are those who either receive funding from Iran or have some misguided believe that being pro Iran will somehow bolster their position. I and lots others can't understand how Biden releases funds to Iran and not think some of those funds will be used for terrorism. Heaven help us when Iran develops nukes and a long range delivering system for them.

[Tunnelcat]

You do realize that Iran is still pumping and selling oil don't you? You must also understand that they make money on the world market doing that don't you? They have a source of revenue, despite that money Biden released. But I'll agree with one thing. Someone's smoking something strong to believe than Iran will only use the money for "humanitarian aide".

But I have a question, are you willing to invade Iran and start a world war? Because the Middle East is the world's main flashpoint and if you light that powder keg off, poof for the world. Your party doesn't even want to fund Urkraine's fight against their aggressors, so why the clamoring support only Israel? Unless you love Putin but not Hamas. By the way, there's no difference between what Hamas did and what Putin did. Woman and children have been murdered in both senseless acts of war.

[Vander]

Will, I think your logic bomb just blew up woodchip.

[Will Robinson]

No, they're not. The proof is in his words actually recorded for posterity.

really? There're no words from the leaders of Iran that indicate a desire for the complete destruction of Israel? Do you really want to stand on a hill that says Trump has been inciting violence with words where Iran has not even though its words have been more in volume and in no way mistaken for hyperbole gone bad? And then of course there are decades of material support for Hamas and Hezbollah rockets, training, funding.

Tell me how Trump has out done that level of incitement. lol

[Will Robinson]

I expect the tactics of declaring my point to be other than what it clearly is so there will be a way to dismiss it. But it doesn't work.
It is exactly the same thing because the 'thing' is the administration's selective application of 'proof of responsibility'.
Trump certainly wanted his boys to storm the castle and reseat him on the throne.
Are his words enough under our law? I don't know, and for today don't care.
Today I'm simply asking you all to honestly examine how the administration says, in effect, Trump is absolutely guilty of causing the riot etc. I'm not trying to give him cover, I'll accept the conclusion, after all it hard to imagine a more likely intent on his part.

But when Iran does the same thing for decades using rhetoric that is more direct and violent, decades of funding and missile deliveries, decades of training by the Iranian Republican Guard for both Hamas and Hezbollah, etc. etc. the administrations says' Whoa! Pump the brakes, we don't have enough evidence to blame Iran directly!

The 'thing', the elephant in the room, has been declared to be perhaps an unusual looking mouse by the same authority that has declared Trumps hyperbole alone to be evidence enough to convict.

At best you could hope they don't believe there is a difference but need to take the cautious path for strategic reasons. But that is just like Trump giving lame excuses to homophobes and racists for reasons that serve his own interests.
Why do some of you people sometimes hate Trump and sometimes emulate his worse traits? objective/selective moral relativism political expediency....bag full of lame rationale at your feet to draw from. Wipe that crap off your shoes and stand up straight!

[Vander]

The only "tactics" I see here are you presenting two different situations as similar and saying agree with me or you're a hypocrite. I mean, if you want to say "Iran is responsible for the current situation in Israel" that's fine. You'd probably get some level of agreement. But this is a weird way to go about it.

[Tunnelcat]

Watch this Will and try to imagine that you're an infatuated (in a full blown religious sense) follower of Trump and he and his subordinates are telling you that the election was stolen from them, the left is the evil one responsible, and to march to the Capital and fight like hell. So now tell me that "fight like hell" really means "protest" to a riled up vengeful mob of fervent supporters, with a straight face mind you. Trump and Giuliani sure as hell knew what was going to happen, violence. They were hoping for it. Theyd been spreading the Big Lie for months. Trump himself is still spreading it. That's why it took so long for Trump to tell them to go home. This was his last ditch attempt to stay in office.



Now this is Hamas' leader actually praising Iran's support for their Palestinian cause 8 years ago. You think anything has changed during those intervening years? Absolutely not. These bastards spent 2 years planning all this. Some nation gave them all that equipment and arms, so it had to either Syria, Egypt or Iran, all of which hate Israel. There's far less evidence against Iran than there's evidence against Trump. But if it smells like ★■◆●, looks like ★■◆● and tastes like ★■◆●, it's ★■◆●. They're guilty of fomenting terrorism, but proof is going to be harder to find.

[vision]

Go ahead, amuse me with your rationale to differentiate the two bodies of evidence.

What in the world are you talking about? The Hamas attacks are being considered as justification for new sanctions on Iran. [source] Did this information not leak into your information bubble?

[Will Robinson]

Watch this Will and try to imagine that you're an infatuated (in a full blown religious sense) follower of Trump and he and his subordinates are telling you that the election was stolen from them, the left is the evil one responsible, and to march to the Capital and fight like hell. So now tell me that "fight like hell" really means "protest" to a riled up vengeful mob of fervent supporters, with a straight face mind you. Trump and Giuliani sure as hell knew what was going to happen, violence. They were hoping for it. Theyd been spreading the Big Lie for months. Trump himself is still spreading it. That's why it took so long for Trump to tell them to go home. This was his last ditch attempt to stay in office.



Now this is Hamas' leader actually praising Iran's support for their Palestinian cause 8 years ago. You think anything has changed during those intervening years? Absolutely not. These bastards spent 2 years planning all this. Some nation gave them all that equipment and arms, so it had to either Syria, Egypt or Iran, all of which hate Israel. There's far less evidence against Iran than there's evidence against Trump. But if it smells like ★■◆●, looks like ★■◆● and tastes like ★■◆●, it's ★■◆●. They're guilty of fomenting terrorism, but proof is going to be harder to find.

So you want to take a single 8 year old speech you think provides Iran some cover and dismiss all the decades of evidence that definitively shows Irans direct manipulation of and building up and arming and training, etc the attacker on Israel?!?

I think if Trump was funding the attack on the capital he would be easier to convict, if he had decades of staffing and training the attackers while preaching all political adversaries of his be violently removed from the capital etc then you would come close to proving the point you think you made. Instead we watched a really bad mental gymnastics routine.

[Will Robinson]

Go ahead, amuse me with your rationale to differentiate the two bodies of evidence.

What in the world are you talking about? The Hamas attacks are being considered as justification for new sanctions on Iran. [source] Did this information not leak into your information bubble?

How in the world does any of that refute the point I’m making?!? It’s like you didn’t really read my comments.
Please in your own words layout the basis of my assertions and then in your own words use the context of Hellen’s comments to refute my point and maybe by doing that you’ll have an epiphany and suddenly know how poorly you missed it

[Will Robinson]

The only "tactics" I see here are you presenting two different situations as similar and saying agree with me or you're a hypocrite. I mean, if you want to say "Iran is responsible for the current situation in Israel" that's fine. You'd probably get some level of agreement. But this is a weird way to go about it.

It’s pretty simple there is the administration assigning certain guilt based on Trump using words to start an insurrection.
And ignoring Irans words to incite terror attacks that they physically trained , armed and to carry out the attacks.

A very selective application of judgement to see Trump as the cause and not see Iran in the same light.

Water is wet in liquid form…in both puddles…Biden thinks he can skate on one of them. He needs lots of people to ignore reality. I’d like to know what they are thinking as the stand there ankle deep cheering him on. Triple salchow beautiful Joe! Do some more!!!

[Vander]

You're trying to make some point, but you should really just state it clearly. Trump hasn't been "assigned guilt." Who is supposedly ignoring Iran?

I mean, it sounds like you're angry we aren't at war with Iran? Is that it?

[Will Robinson]

You're trying to make some point, but you should really just state it clearly. Trump hasn't been "assigned guilt." Who is supposedly ignoring Iran?

I mean, it sounds like you're angry we aren't at war with Iran? Is that it?

Really? State it more clear than what I already have? Or did you mean please restate it in a way that suits you?
It is a simple and concise point. Two entities being judged by the same body of judges, for being responsible for a violent act perpetrated by people under their influence. In both cases it isn't their own participation in the actual violence but the way they contributed to it. Contributed to the point they are responsible for it happening as much as the perpetrators are.

That singular judgement by the same body of judges in each of the two cases is coming up quite different.

Why bring up war. I haven't once offered a course of action. Address the point raised please without trying to rephrase it or change it or dismiss the thing out of hand.

[Vander]

"Two entities..."

Trump and Iran are not comparable and it's ridiculous to compare them. You're trying to juxtapose the treatment of one with the other. I'm just curious to what end?

[Will Robinson]

"Two entities..."

Trump and Iran are not comparable and it's ridiculous to compare them. You're trying to juxtapose the treatment of one with the other. I'm just curious to what end?

They are both either responsible for their followers engaging in violence inspired by rhetoric (inTrumps case) or inspired by rhetoric, trained, armed, funded and protected in the case of the Ayatollah (Iran).

My point is focused on the U.S. leadership and their supporters in media that are trying so hard to apply a much lesser burden of responsibility to the one who has much more evidence of culpability than the other!

It's interesting a few posts back you said if 'I just wanted to say that Iran was responsible for the attacks on Israel I'd get some level of agreement'.
You just need me to omit the comments on obvious hypocrisy the Biden team has displayed in the matter and you could sign off on the reality of what Iran has done? That's an endorsement I can do without.

Iran is either guilty of the same thing Trump is or not (actually much much worse but fundamentally the same thing).
Biden and his followers are pretending to have a moral position on Trumps efforts or not.
You are willing to pretend you don't agree Iran is culpable if it saves you from acknowledging team Biden has got this wrong.
Why?

[Vander]

...obvious hypocrisy the Biden team...
...Biden and his followers are pretending to have a moral position...

Ahh, there's the point. Gotcha.

But again, these two situations are not comparable. I do not find it hypocritical that a fraudulent huckster and a country of 80 million people might be treated differently.

[vision]

You are willing to pretend you don't agree Iran is culpable if it saves you from acknowledging team Biden has got this wrong.
Why?

Who is defending Iran on this board? It sounds like you are having an imaginary conversation. Seek help.

[Tunnelcat]

So you want to take a single 8 year old speech you think provides Iran some cover and dismiss all the decades of evidence that definitively shows Irans direct manipulation of and building up and arming and training, etc the attacker on Israel?!?

I think if Trump was funding the attack on the capital he would be easier to convict, if he had decades of staffing and training the attackers while preaching all political adversaries of his be violently removed from the capital etc then you would come close to proving the point you think you made. Instead we watched a really bad mental gymnastics routine.

That 8 year old video is the only overt evidence that Hamas is supported by Iran. Other than that, Hamas has said nothing one way or another since, other than announcing jihad against all Jews and Zionists in blanket statements. Iran continues to deny they're helping and any money trail is murky. But we all know Iran is supporting them because they've done so in the past and have no intention of stopping that support since they also hate Israel. No one here thinks otherwise.

As for Trump, he funded nothing. He didn't need to. His militia supporters were already armed, so all Trump needed were revival style speeches to rile them up and foment hate against the left. Those same militia members even brought boxes of weapons and ammo to hotel rooms in D.C. in preparation before the protest. They were ready to use firearms in defense of their leader if Trump had actually called upon them to do so. Many of these same people have now been convicted and sentenced to jail time.

His revival rallies before, during and after his presidency, if you ever bothered to force yourself to sit through one of them, were nothing but lies and directed hate. He's still blaming the left for nearly every bad thing that happens, even if he's at fault. I'd say all that constant hate propaganda fed the frenzy of his supporters. They were well riled up to commit insurrection when Trump gave his final cheer-them-on speech to save his presidency. Many of those supporters even claim they believed Trump told them to enter the Capital in the effort stop the certification of the election. All the damage to the Capitol, the one protestor shot dead trying to force herself into the House Chambers and all injured Capital police officers are testament to Trump's intent. He riled up his army. He is responsible.

[Will Robinson]

You are willing to pretend you don't agree Iran is culpable if it saves you from acknowledging team Biden has got this wrong.
Why?

Who is defending Iran on this board? It sounds like you are having an imaginary conversation. Seek help.

You are deflecting to avoid the obvious point I raised. You might be doing it reflexively and not even realize it. I don't know, don't care. When you see the words and just take the at face value maybe you can see through the fog of 'oh, no! another conservative saying something'!

[Will Robinson]

...
That 8 year old video is the only overt evidence that Hamas is supported by Iran.

That is ridiculous! Absolutely ridiculous.
Hamas is in effect the replacement for Yassar Arafat because he was dangerously close to agreeing to a peaceful solution. Iran reacted to that and pumped rhetoric, religious dogma, money, missiles, training for combat training for bomb building, parts and materials for bomb and missile making, paying bounties for murdered jews, paying martyrs families reward for killing jews, etc etc FOR DECADES!!

That 8 year old video is the only 'evidence' you can find that is similar to Trumps contribution to the Jan 6th riot. And the fact that you would ignore historical data on Irans involvement in attacks on Israel and ty to dismiss all out and say that video is the only evidence is like a Bagdad Bob moment. Bagdad Cat

[Will Robinson]

If you want to know what Trump would evolve to if his revolutionaries had managed to plant him back on his throne in the White House, and somehow he was able to resume his presidency....just look at the Ayatollah! This is the same ★■◆●ing thing.

[Tunnelcat]

I reiterate, there is no "direct" connection anyone's been able to prove between the Hamas attack and Iran. However, there are plenty of indications and rhetoric that it's true. What more do you need? Iran coming out and claiming that: "Yeah, we're guilty. We gave Hamas training and weapons since we hate zionists and will continue to do so in the future."

This one may be paywalled:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/0 ... t-00120491

[woodchip]

If you want to know what Trump would evolve to if his revolutionaries had managed to plant him back on his throne in the White House, and somehow he was able to resume his presidency....just look at the Ayatollah! This is the same ★■◆●ing thing.

Except Trump handed the reins over to Biden.

[Vander]

Except Trump handed the reins over to Biden.

That's... certainly one way to describe what happened.

[Will Robinson]

I reiterate, there is no "direct" connection anyone's been able to prove between the Hamas attack and Iran. However, there are plenty of indications and rhetoric that it's true. What more do you need? Iran coming out and claiming that: "Yeah, we're guilty. We gave Hamas training and weapons since we hate zionists and will continue to do so in the future."

This one may be paywalled:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... ns-israel/

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/0 ... t-00120491

So do you want to apologize to Trump for not setting the bar for proof of responsibility anywhere near as high as you are suggesting it should be for Iran?!? Lol

I think you are so deep in denial you don’t have a chance to see you are being overtly hypocritical and obtuse. Or maybe you are just a poorly programmed chat bot

[vision]

…how the hell do you rationalize there is no evidence that Iran is guilty in the attack on Israel?!?

I'm still trying to figure out who is saying this? No one on this board absolves Iran from blame. I haven't seen anything in my "leftist liberal" media that absolves Iran from blame. Where are you hearing this?

[Vander]

I can only assume it's the statement that there isn't any intel that shows Iran directed the attack.

[Will Robinson]

I can only assume it's the statement that there isn't any intel that shows Iran directed the attack.

It’s the disparity in the judgement. That statement is the excuse…the really lame excuse…it’s the water in the bucket you guys are too eager to carry and proclaiming ‘what water?! What bucket?!

and now apparently you want to acknowledge I’m right about Iran being at fault ( except Baghdad Cat) and somehow still ignore the whole point.
It had an introduction, the thread title.So, Is cause and effect a well defined phenomena ? Scientific in nature? or just some arbitrary phantom of logic sometimes employed like irony that escapes some people on a regular basis??

[Krom]

The cause is probably some deliberately misconstrued quote on right wing media about Biden that your programming has been triggered by. Today it is about Iran, tomorrow it will be about hydrogen, the day after it will be about chicken ★■◆●.

Pretty much everyone everywhere gets that you cannot throw a rock in the middle east without it hitting an Iranian funded/supplied/trained terrorist organization and they were almost certainly involved in this attack (whatever they are going to eventually call it). Saying we have no intel that shows Iran directed it is not saying much given the catastrophic level of intel failure that allowed the attack to happen in the first place. And even if we do compile together information showing the extent of Iranian involvement, it won't happen today or tomorrow, it will take years.

[Tunnelcat]

So do you want to apologize to Trump for not setting the bar for proof of responsibility anywhere near as high as you are suggesting it should be for Iran?!? Lol

I think you are so deep in denial you don’t have a chance to see you are being overtly hypocritical and obtuse. Or maybe you are just a poorly programmed chat bot

Denial about what? I would no more apologize to that bastard than forgive Hamas. Have you even watched ANY of the Jan. 6th hearings? If you want to keep on believing there's no good evidence against Trump for fomenting his little insurrection, I'm never going to be able to say or show you anything that will change your mind, because you already have your mind made up. You want 100% proof that Trump is guilty, nothing less and he walks. Well, you aren't going to get it, just like we aren't going to get absolute proof that Iran supported Hamas with their current terrorist attack. So with that bald face detail, are you willing to indict Iran but not Trump for the same lack of hard proof? I sure as hell am because there's enough circumstantial evidence to nail both to the wall with prejudice.

[Will Robinson]

So do you want to apologize to Trump for not setting the bar for proof of responsibility anywhere near as high as you are suggesting it should be for Iran?!? Lol

I think you are so deep in denial you don’t have a chance to see you are being overtly hypocritical and obtuse. Or maybe you are just a poorly programmed chat bot

Denial about what? I would no more apologize to that bastard than forgive Hamas. Have you even watched ANY of the Jan. 6th hearings? If you want to keep on believing there's no good evidence against Trump for fomenting his little insurrection, I'm never going to be able to say or show you anything that will change your mind, because you already have your mind made up. You want 100% proof that Trump is guilty, nothing less and he walks. Well, you aren't going to get it, just like we aren't going to get absolute proof that Iran supported Hamas with their current terrorist attack. So with that bald face detail, are you willing to indict Iran but not Trump for the same lack of hard proof? I sure as hell am because there's enough circumstantial evidence to nail both to the wall with prejudice.

I’ve never suggested Trump isn’t guilty. I’ve said the opposite repeatedly and consistently. I do think the ‘laws’ may not support a conviction based on the evidence I’ve seen because free speech is a thing. Not absolute, but enough of a thing in past cases that he may not lose. That’s all I’ve said about it.
And! For the sake of the discussion I stated Trump is guilty. And by using the same bar as a reference I find even more evidence, much much more material fact and outright admission on the part of Iran that they groomed Hamas and Hezbollah to be an extension of their will and fully intend to kill all the Jews in Israel and beyond.
So much more evidence that *if* Trumps words are enough then Iran, by comparison is without a doubt completely culpable. If you had the scope of evidence we have on Iran against Trump he would be facing a firing squad for treason and there would be no need to try and use just his words.

That is the whole point. And of course you have to deny that glaring truth, so go ahead I won’t try to convince you, I’m not insane so I’ll stop.

[Krom]

Did you ever pause to think: "If everyone here believes Iran is guilty why do I keep insisting they don't?"

[vision]

Yeah I don't get this entire thread. He's bringing an opinion that everyone agrees with but still wants to yell about it?

[Vander]

and now apparently you want to acknowledge I’m right about Iran being at fault

Nah, I give Hamas agency for their actions. Because with or without Iran, there would be some form of armed resistance to the apartheid state Israel has constructed for everyone to be shocked and horrified by.