Ford Prefect wrote:Kind of puts a hole in the more guns is good theory.
Not really, it pokes holes in the ban guns to combat crime theory!
You said that the number of handgun related shootings is up and legal ownership of handguns is down, so it's clear that handgun bans only reduce legal ownership not criminal ownership and criminal use.
I think there is a strong correlation that has been proven in regards to hand gun laws and deaths/year by handguns. I would ask: why do other countries have such significantly lower deaths/year from gun related violence?
Because they teach their chidren respect perhaps?
In Japan for example they honor the elders and feel shame if they dishonor their family...
In american cities the youth don't know their fathers, they recieve props for bringing home stolen goods and are something like 25 times more likely to murder someone than the little rich kid down the street from me.
You said that the number of handgun related shootings is up and legal ownership of handguns is down, so it's clear that handgun bans only reduce legal ownership not criminal ownership and criminal use.
Quite true really. There is no way to stop the criminal element from obtaining handguns as long as there is a free market for them just across a 3000 mile undefended border so we have laws that are used to charge people found with guns. You don't need to prove they are guilty of some crime you only suspect if you can stick them with an illegal weapons charge that is easy to prove since you are holding the evidence in your hand. Of course you have to trust your police force(s) to apply the laws but we seem to have a pretty good collection of cops (not perfect but pretty good) around here.
kufyit wrote:That may be part of it, but what about the UK?
I think if you see the U.K develop enviroments like our inner cities you will see parallel results. It's all about children in poverty without a strong family teaching them social skills/discipline.
Basically it's what happens when you let children raise children in poverty.
You can just blame the gun they use if you want to, but you have to be a complete idiot to think you've even touched on the problem if you do.
I bet half those stats would have gone away if it wasn't for Christians (and Christian-esque..I'm just lumping) and all that no-abortion crap. Save the children! Now they're all (partially) grown up killing others. Did somebody say irony?
"You don't need to prove they are guilty of some crime you only suspect if you can stick them with an illegal weapons charge that is easy to prove since you are holding the evidence in your hand."
That's very scary. Any cop could snag a gun and use it to put someone away, because the guy hit on his wife at a party, or annoyed the traffic cop enough driving psuedo-aggressivly. (Cops are just as emotional, irrational and stupid as the rest of the public)
Okay let me clarify. If a cop finds an unregistered hand gun in possession of a person he can be reasonably assured that that person has some criminal intent other than just owning an unregistered gun. The same cop would have a tough time trying to stick a law abideing person with a planted gun since it takes criminal connections to obtain one and most law abideing persons could demonstrate a lack of access as well as a lack of motive for possessing one to the court.
What I am saying is the very lack of handgun access to the law abideing makes possession of a handgun whose registration was somehow "forgotten".
At least that was my reading of Testi's post. That the police could stick you with possession by planting a weapon on you. They could just as easily plant a kilo of heroin on you and the court would reasonably ask how you could have gotten access to it.
Fortunately I live in a country where I can have every expectation that no one around me is packing a handgun and, in the highly unlikely situation where force of arms is required to solve a situation, that the people I pay to serve and protect me will do so.
I do not share the paranoia of some that my police force is my enemy nor do I ever see myself in a situation such as Will Robinson describes where I have any need to carry a handgun in my waistband while on a family holiday anywhere in my country.
Ford Prefect wrote:Fortunately I live in a country where I can have every expectation that no one around me is packing a handgun and, in the highly unlikely situation where force of arms is required to solve a situation, that the people I pay to serve and protect me will do so.
...nor do I ever see myself in a situation such as Will Robinson describes where I have any need to carry a handgun in my waistband while on a family holiday anywhere in my country.
I hope that you are correct in your statement F.P.
But the word that I'm getting from family members over there up around the Sunshine Coast, is that gang activity; like shoot-outs and drive-by shootings is on the rise in urban areas like Vancouver and Toronto.
I guess that I'll get a better idea when I'm over there later in October.
"Fortunately I live in a country where I can have every expectation that no one around me is packing a handgun and, in the highly unlikely situation where force of arms is required to solve a situation, that the people I pay to serve and protect me will do so." Ford
People you think are paid to protect you very rarely do so. Police in 99% of crimes are there only to do follow up investigation and of course to to notify next of kin. If you are ever a victim of a crime Ford, (which I hope you never are)the one thing you won't see is a nice friendly policeman running over to help you out.
I have had my house broken into my work truck was cleaned out in my driveway. My carport is wide open and some things of no great value have dissapeared from it. In this I am typical of those living in my area. Drug addiction is a problem that results in high property crime rates. Car theft is also very common but that hasn't happened to me. The common thread in these crimes is that they occur when there is no one around. I only know of one person who actually saw his goods being stolen (it was his truck) and the thieves were unarmed. I don't know of anyone who has ever been threatened by a gun of any kind. I don't live in a crime free world by any stretch of the imagination but guns and gun play are almost entirely confined to certain social groups who don't normally interact with the law abiding population. I don't hang out in front of drinking establishments after closing time looking for a fight, I don't do drug deals, I don't belong to a gang involved in turf wars.
Yeah I hear you Woodchip. The cops are not going to be there to back me up if some idiot pulls a gun out and starts spraying bullets around. By the time they get there the action is over. Such a tiny chance of that happening does not bear any preperation or concern.
HOWEVER I STRONGLY disagree with your statement that they rarely protect me. Their presence deters crime at all times, without an active police force I would need to enforce the law myself and criminals would only need to be better armed than me to have their way. Because there is a strong police presence I don't have to be a law enforcement agency myself and can go my way as a peacful citizen of a quiet community.
Why don't I arm myself to protect my property? I hear you ask. What if someone thinks my house is empty and breaks in while I am in it? What if I wake up as my co-worker did to the sound of someone stealing my car? I simply will not try to kill someone with a gun just to protect property I can replace. Catching and prosecuting thieves is the job of the police and they do their best at it. As I have said, armed robbery is almost unknown, unarmed thieves are easily chased away or if they escape with my property... such is life in the big city.
Ford Prefect wrote: But we need to put one enormous metal detector on the border and open every glove box to nip this slide into U.S. style argument resolution in the bud.
Heh, perhaps Canada will invade us for exporting weapons of mass destruction?
Testiculese wrote:So what law is keeping the guns out of the criminals' hands?
Plenty of laws are on the books. The problem is the lack of oversight and enforcement. I tend be a moderate with more liberal leanings, but I am very much pro-gun rights. I'm sick of all the morons who scream for more and more laws on gun control but will not try to increase funding for enforcement of those laws. There are enough laws.
Did somebody say irony?
