For you non-Christians...

Behemoth · Post by **Behemoth** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:57 pm

bet51987 wrote:
named "heaven", after I said my usual "Hi cuties", he typed the following: "Do you believe in abortion?" I returned with "It depends if I've been raped" He then said "then have the child". I was getting annoyed now, so I asked him "Suppose my life is in danger if I go thru with it" and he replied "Is your life more important than his/hers".

I cut off the converstation and went gunning for just him. Geez....in a game now?
Bettina

i was heaven and i dont a sh!t if u agree or disagree the opinion is still there most ppl secular or christian etc. actually oppose abortion i was not directing the question to you and i hope you enjoy how you live christians do too dont judge them for trying to make u feel what they feel

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:38 pm

is english your second language?

That's a heavy question to be springing on anyone in a game of D3 don't you think? Not to mention the rest of the baggage you threw in there with it. The last thing shes thinking about is abortions and weighing the pros and cons of having one. Sheesh

Behemoth · Post by **Behemoth** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:46 pm

the fact is i'm saddened by the fact that ppl actually consider it as an option still it's gruesome, it's sick and if you wouldn't want it to happen to you.

Then why would you think of putting someone else that your supposed to love and nourish through a torture that he/she isn't even going to survive?

If you have any babies bettina remember this, that baby is something special not just a bunch of cells that have put "itself" together by chance if you can explain just how one sperm and an egg can make a baby then go ahead.

You arent the one that made that happen it took two and you dont have the knowledge to tell me truthfully that you can explain HOW a baby comes from an egg and sperm.

I'm not a judgemental person at all but i sharply disagree with the subject of abortion because i like looking at children and thinking "Hey i was one of those a long time ago". And to think that some girl that doesnt know what to do is just going to throw something precious and important to humanity away just like that make's me upset.

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:48 pm

Behemoth wrote:
i was heaven and i dont a **** if u agree or disagree the opinion is still there most ppl secular or christian etc. actually oppose abortion i was not directing the question to you and i hope you enjoy how you live christians do too dont judge them for trying to make u feel what they feel

Your mistaken. You not only directed the question to me, but answered both my replys.
No offense, but being 16, I don't need an abortion opinion delivered to me in a game. Please keep your preaching in the forum...not in the game.
And what does (i dont a **** ) doing in your post if your a Christian. No offense intended.

Bettina

Edit...I just saw your post. You don't have a clue as to what kind of person I am so please refrain from preaching to me directly.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:52 pm

Come on people. Lets not crap on this thread now and take it off course. Take this to PM or E-mail or something.

Behemoth · Post by **Behemoth** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:54 pm

bet51987 wrote:
Behemoth wrote:
i was heaven and i dont a **** if u agree or disagree the opinion is still there most ppl secular or christian etc. actually oppose abortion i was not directing the question to you and i hope you enjoy how you live christians do too dont judge them for trying to make u feel what they feel
Your mistaken. You not only directed the question to me, but answered both my replys.
No offense, but being 16, I don't need an abortion opinion delivered to me in a game. Please keep your preaching in the forum...not in the game.
And what does (i dont a **** ) doing in your post if your a Christian. No offense intended.

Bettina

I didn't direct any question's to you until you started replying to what i asked in general don't tell me not to preach or w/e i have freedom to say what i feel.

Didn't mean to make you feel anything but what i said: that abortion is wrong plain and simple i dont have to start talking about the detail's but if you can honestly say that your worth more then your own flesh and blood your loony (sorry but that's the way I feel)

Just like you express your dislikes on what you believe to be not true i'm going to express my dislikes on what i believe shouldn't happen.

Behemoth · Post by **Behemoth** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:57 pm

And about the (i dont give a ****) i apologize because i am a calm person just lose my cool sometimes and yes i am a christian.

Sirian · Post by **Sirian** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:47 pm

Howdy, Matthew. Pleased to meet ya.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:18 pm

LOL

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:18 pm

haha, thats good

Behemoth · Post by **Behemoth** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:55 pm

Who's matthew?

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:42 pm

Caught skimming again eh Behemoth.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:51 pm

Oops, I see the brain-dead found the thread.

WarAdvocat · Post by **WarAdvocat** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:46 pm

I don't view myself as a religious person. In quiet moments I contemplate spiritual issues, but I don't have a clear picture of what my feelings are. Do I believe in a "greater power"? I don't know. My instinct (or is that my cultural background?) tells me that there is more than this life, but what that something else might be I don't know.

I don't 'hate Christians' or even Christianity, but I don't care to be involved in their spiritual lives, and that, I think, is the problem for me. It seems like all too often when you're dealing with <insert christian denomination here>, the interaction becomes a shill for their church, denomination or faith. I respect your faith, and I don't even mind if you ask to discuss it with me, if you accept 'no' for an answer, and don't ask me again for a LONG while. What truly raises my ire is when I say I'm not interested and they go on like a two-bit telemarketer for Jesus, Jehovah & Associates.

And Jehovah's Witnesses @ my door @ 9:00 AM on a weekend? Ok... I admit to some hatred there too.

Sirian's Matthed/Mark analogy really falls into place here too. I find that something about the attitudes of certain 'Christians' can be really grating and condescending. I think Sirian put it into words for me, at least partly...

Finally, I dislike people who consider themselves "Christian", while dismally failing to live up to the least precept of their "Faith". You know who I mean. The Social Christians. The hypocritical, back-stabbing "born again" Sunday School Brigade...Church is NOT High School. Get over yourself.

-Bunyip, in a more serious moment.

PS: Why is it that a certain segment of Christianity seems to feel it is necessary to deny the demonstrable evidence of science?? Galileo wasn't the first to be persecuted, and certainly Evolution will not be the last such topic attacked. I can't begin to convey the contempt this arouses in me.

Plebeian · Post by **Plebeian** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:35 pm

WarAdvocat wrote:Finally, I dislike people who consider themselves "Christian", while dismally failing to live up to the least precept of their "Faith". You know who I mean. The Social Christians. The hypocritical, back-stabbing "born again" Sunday School Brigade...Church is NOT High School. Get over yourself.

Yep yep. These are who I call "self-proclaimed Christians". They say they're Christian, go to church, and completely fail to follow any of the teachings. As you say, it's more of a social thing than anything else. It's "cool" to be a Christian, so sign me up! If my kids don't want to go, I'll slap some sense into them!

This is one thing I dislike about organized religion. It seems as though it can turn into just another social venue, as opposed to people of similar beliefs congregating in the same place to worship together. I haven't noticed as much in non-Christian religions, but as I don't often have much opportunity to participate in other religions, and Christianity would have to be the most common religion here, it's hard to really make a valid comparison.

But that really seems to be the "Christians" that are hated the most: the posers that claim to belong to a faith that they do not hold. They think that they're with the "in" crowd, and try to shove it in your face that they're Christian and therefore superior. Whereas the "real" Christians would not be so pushy. They actually do hold these beliefs, and try to follow them as best they can.

At least that's how I see it. Usually the "fake" Christians are those that will go out of their way to tell you they go to church, etc., while the "real" Christians are usually more quiet. Why does it really matter that you go to a Baptist church, or a Catholic church, or a Presbyterian church? Should the person you're talking with change their opinion of you just because you say something like that? Teach by example, people.

It doesn't matter if you're Christian, or Jewish (Jesus was a Jew, you know

), or Buddhist or Muslim or any of that, it just matters what kind of person you are.

As background: I was baptized Episcopalian, and raised Catholic when my mom decided to convert and start going back to church. I don't attend myself, anymore, and my beliefs don't align 100% with the Roman Catholic teachings, but I think most of it is good. But then again, the same can be said about most other faiths, as well.

Forgot to address this bit....

PS: Why is it that a certain segment of Christianity seems to feel it is necessary to deny the demonstrable evidence of science?? Galileo wasn't the first to be persecuted, and certainly Evolution will not be the last such topic attacked. I can't begin to convey the contempt this arouses in me.

One thing that annoys me is when people claim that Creation and Evolution are mutually exclusive, citing the "day" that it took God to create certain things. First off, a "day" is a unit of time that is defined by the rotation of the Earth. If there was no Earth and no Sun in the beginning, how could there be any "day"? "Day" would just refer to a period of time. Like the general consensus is that "40" actually was just "lots". Who says a "day" for God couldn't be, say, the equivalent of a billion years for us?

Secondly, if you go through what was created on those six days, it does more or less agree with evolution. The universe was created, planets formed hospitible environments, life was created, and eventually we got where we are today.

So it doesn't have to be either or.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:28 pm

I have several problems:

1) If there IS a god - which one do I believe in? If a god exists, which religion is correct? There is no way to know - therefore they ALL must be wrong - because they ALL maintain they are the one and only.

2) The bible is a work created by humans, edited by humans and translated by humans. It therefore has very little basis in fact, and even historically, it does not stand up too well to scrutiny.

3) The idea that bible writers were nothing more than god's stenographers is patently absurb to 21st century minds. (This idea only developed in the 16th century too it must be added)

4) It's weakness to pass off responsibility to god. It's weakness not to confront the concept that once you are dead - YOU ARE DEAD - and that's that. The human mind can seldom accept the idea of death, and resusitated people who relate near-death experiences of tunnels and light and god etc, are simply the last dying thoughts of a brain which can;t face its own mortality.

5) The idea of a soul is anathema to me. Human minds are simply the action of billion of neurons with trillions of connections acting within the human head. Once electrical activity ceases in the brian - that's it.

6) There is NOTHING in the world which requires explanation by resorting to god. (This did NOT used to be the case - so we can forgive our forebears for inventing and praying to gods)

7) The harm done to humanity by religion is absolutely f'ing disgusting. The Catholic church is the most evil organisation on the planet, and has been for over 1000 years. (I recently read a large volume about the Crusades. Positively revolting!)

Church doctrine actually defines most christians as Heretics when it comes to actual belief in God. "The trinity" is vastly at odds with a mono-theistic system!

9) The deificiation of Jesus is a recent event. He was considered a prophet, not the son of god until the bible was edited late in the first millenium. The deificiation process tooka long time too: he NEVER claimed to be the son of god. He did talk about the "Kingdom of heaven" quite a bit though.

10) A fundamental christian belief system is detrimental to individuals and nations in the 21st century. It causes many modern branches of science to be rejected, and many scientific questions reduced to religious arguments. It also has resulted in the pseudo-science called "Creation Science" (a non-seqitur) which does nothing to help either side.

Fundamental agreement with things-biblical causes people to become incapable of discerning fact from fiction in their day today lives. Simply put, Christians are gullible individuals who will accept things on faith, rather than proof.

Also, any attempts to prove god's existence are actually attemnpts to kill god. If proved, god would become an object of scientific study, and the faith would be gone. God would be dead. "god" would simply be added to the list of scientific things which need further investigation.

The list goes on too, but I am out of time...

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:59 pm

Mobius wrote:7) The harm done to humanity by religion is absolutely f'ing disgusting. The Catholic church is the most evil organisation on the planet, and has been for over 1000 years. (I recently read a large volume about the Crusades. Positively revolting!)

Hey Mobius, way to go with deeply insulting several members of this board, myself included? Where do you dig this trash up? Do you even know anything about Catholicism today? Ever been inside a church? Seriously, this type of misguided irrationalism is what makes me sick. And you accuse people with religious beliefs of having the same problem. Riiight.

Mobius wrote: Church doctrine actually defines most christians as Heretics when it comes to actual belief in God. "The trinity" is vastly at odds with a mono-theistic system!

9) The deificiation of Jesus is a recent event. He was considered a prophet, not the son of god until the bible was edited late in the first millenium. The deificiation process tooka long time too: he NEVER claimed to be the son of god. He did talk about the "Kingdom of heaven" quite a bit though.

Wrong and wrong. Once again, you're showing your utter ignorance of Christianity. Seriously, try doing some actual research before coming here and spewing your fallacies.

Mobius wrote:4) It's weakness to pass off responsibility to god. It's weakness not to confront the concept that once you are dead - YOU ARE DEAD - and that's that. The human mind can seldom accept the idea of death, and resusitated people who relate near-death experiences of tunnels and light and god etc, are simply the last dying thoughts of a brain which can;t face its own mortality.

5) The idea of a soul is anathema to me. Human minds are simply the action of billion of neurons with trillions of connections acting within the human head. Once electrical activity ceases in the brian - that's it.

If this is what you truly believe, I have more pity for you than any other person I've come across. A "bunch of neurons"? Is that all you can say about your own mind, your own species? Could things like Beethoven's symphonies, Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel, or Da Vinci's Last Supper be the products of some random mess of neurons firing around each other. Can such human emotions as love and hatred be reduced to a computer system? Spare me. How can you possibly think that there is nothing out there after we die, that the wonder that is a human being can just cease to exist forever?

Mobius wrote:Fundamental agreement with things-biblical causes people to become incapable of discerning fact from fiction in their day today lives. Simply put, Christians are gullible individuals who will accept things on faith, rather than proof.

Also, any attempts to prove god's existence are actually attemnpts to kill god. If proved, god would become an object of scientific study, and the faith would be gone. God would be dead. "god" would simply be added to the list of scientific things which need further investigation.

Once again, wrong and wrong. After the experience you've had with such intelligent people on this forum as Lothar, Drakona, and Sirian, can you honestly say that all Christians are "gullible and deluded"? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Also, on one final note: those who believe in God know that "there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Science is not absolute, nor does it have the answers to a fraction of the universe's mysteries; as a physics major, I think I'm able to make that statement with some credibility.

I don't mind you posting opinions that I disagree with, but when you post outright lies and fallacies without any backing, you're doing everyone a disservice.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:58 pm

"The wonder that is a human being"? Hehe. There's no wonder in humans. Bunch of stinky, loud, mostly uneducated animals. Next time you walk the dog, and you both wizz on the fence, think about all that 'wonder'..

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:23 pm

Top Gun wrote: I don't mind you posting opinions that I disagree with, but when you post outright lies and fallacies without any backing, you're doing everyone a disservice.

Geez, I don't see where he was doing a disservice at all. He expressed an opinion as I do. If I say I don't believe in a god, am I insulting you? (I hope not).

And mobius.....

mobius wrote:4) It's weakness not to confront the concept that once you are dead - YOU ARE DEAD

It's not a weakness....I'm reading stuff about that too. There is a chance for life again (without a god). I'll post when I research this more. It's pretty interesting. Other stuff too.....I believe there was "time" before the big bang. Always was.
I have lots of avenues I'm looking at.

Bettina

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:46 pm

Top Gun wrote:If this is what you truly believe, I have more pity for you than any other person I've come across. A "bunch of neurons"? Is that all you can say about your own mind, your own species? Could things like Beethoven's symphonies, Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel, or Da Vinci's Last Supper be the products of some random mess of neurons firing around each other. Can such human emotions as love and hatred be reduced to a computer system?

Call me a coldhearted bastard, but I think they can. Your bunch of neurons and everyone else's bunch of neurons come from the same generic blueprint that says that certain things are good. If you do something to someone that they sense as good, the receptors in the brain for that sensation trigger the release of endorphins which tell your bunch of neurons that they're happy. The reason that things such as the highly sophisticated works of art you mentioned can be so magnificent but still be the product of a bunch of neurons is that your bunch of neurons tells you that it's magnificent. Since you can't step outside your own bunch of neurons it takes a bit of abstract thought to understand, "Whatever I see and however I see it is tainted by the fact that my mind can always be constantly tricked by itself." It's circular logic at its worst.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:58 pm

Testiculese wrote:"The wonder that is a human being"? Hehe. There's no wonder in humans. Bunch of stinky, loud, mostly uneducated animals. Next time you walk the dog, and you both wizz on the fence, think about all that 'wonder'..

Look what humanity has accomplished in the past 1000 years, or even in the past 100. Look how far we've come from our origins. Look at the things we've made, built, painted, sculpted, invented, developed, sang, and written. Then tell me that there's not something special about humanity. And who wizzes on fences?

DCrazy, all right then, you're a heartless bastard.

Bettina, who said I was insulted by you? I may think you're wrong, but I'm not insulted. Mobius, on the other hand, specifically singled out and vilified my own religious faith based on erroneous beliefs, and that's what offended me.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:48 pm

I hate to say it, but I agree with Mobi and DCrazy and they have scientific proof to substantiate most of it.

Top Gun, this doesn't mean we're not special. Afterall look at all those things you mentioned. Even if it isn't the inspired work of some divine being, does it make it any less special? Personally I don't think so. To me, it makes it more special. It means that we are capable of doing some wonderful things on our own. In which case the things that make us unique should be all the more celebrated.

Anyways, anyone else think Testi is missing something in his life? Sometimes by the way you talk I'm surprised you haven't pulled the trigger already

Welcome to the human race, yeah we wuv you too

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:55 pm

It lasted six days. Thanks for the responses!

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:03 pm

Erm, I just realized I broke the rules by posting in this thread...

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:19 pm

No you didn't. I'm just amazed it took six days before the debate started, that's all.

Post away, D.