Happy Holidays

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:29 pm

No, I'm not wishing you moronski's (:P) the best for Christmas/Hannucha/Kwansa et al but just posting my displeasure at the new turn in political correctness.
Here in Ann Arbor (you know...home of Meeecheegan football) the city put up the annual christmas tree but it is no longer a chrismas tree, it is now a "holiday" tree. I see Macy's is no longer using the word christmas in it's advertising, I guess because they don't want to offend those who don't practice christmas.
So how is it that christmas has become a word not fit for public usage? So is Santa and his elves next on the list of things to avoid referencing? Will christmas songs have to be rewritten? No more Silent Nights usage of "holy night"? What will "Hark the Harold Angels Sing" be changed to to be politically correct?
More importantly what has triggered this anal elimination of christmas from the public airways? Someone complain that they were offended? Some minority group file a lawsuit? I for one hope business's like Macy's suffer a big decline in sales for trodding down the mediocrity sidewalk. I mean just what do things like evergreen trees sparkling with colored lights and glass ornaments hanging heavy on the trees boughs represent? A time for sales to carry a retail business through the year?
I feel sorry for those about to be born into this land. The fun and meaning for this time of year is slowly being subhumed by sales figures and how well the economy is doing.
I think I'll go out and stick a sign by the road wishing everyone a very merry christmas.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:50 pm

woodchip wrote:Will christmas songs have to be rewritten? No more Silent Nights usage of "holy night"? What will "Hark the Harold Angels Sing" be changed to to be politically correct?

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it "Hark the Herald Angels Sing"?.

In some ways I agree with you woody, PC is getting out of hand. I don't think it ruins Christmas though, for those of us that celebrate it. Besides, the warmth of Christmas joy seems to dim ever so slightly the older you get. It's still special to the kids

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:10 pm

obviously, things are like this because the republicans are in power.

Zoop! · Post by **Zoop!** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:45 pm

I do think they are trying not to offend minority groups. A business' advertisement with the word "Christmas" might reach out far, but stands a better chance of being ignored than "Happy Holidays."

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:06 pm

I also find it offensive that we continually have to change OUR ways to please someone elses religious beliefs. We never asked them to come here. North America is mostly Catholic or Prodesten(sp?) and we celebrate Christmas and we should not be afraid to use that word. Soon enough we will have to rename all our holidays so it doesn't insult someone? WTF, would they do that for us in THEIR country? I highly doubt it.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:47 pm

Protestant, Merlin. As in Martin Luther protesting the Catholic church. But I agree 100% with your sentiments.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:09 pm

I'm sure Macy's will continue to sell it's crappy Chinese-made bastardization of the majority of the population's most favorite holy day regardless of what they call it.

CDN_Merlin · Post by **CDN_Merlin** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:17 pm

I'm also sick n tried of having to say "happy Holidays' when it's frigin XMAS!!!!

If I can respect your religion and wish you a happy Hannukah or whatever, then you should indulge me in my beliefs.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:46 pm

Christians have seen this coming for a long, LONG time and have been fighting against it. It doesn't seem to matter, though. Thanksgiving is now "turkey day", Christmas is now "X-Mas" or "holiday season" or some other such rot. The de-Christianization of this country is taking place at amazing rates. The Declaration of Independence has been removed from schools because it mentions God. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, IT'S OUR NATION'S FOUNDING DOCUMENT!!!!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT IN SCHOOLS BECAUSE IT MENTIONS GOD????

As a side note, nowhere in the constitution OR declaration of independence is separation of church and state. It says in the constitution that "Congress shall make no law respecting an established religion" (to paraphrase it anyway). Thomas Jefferson mentioned the phrase "separation of church and state" in a private letter to a friend, saying that he didn't want a state-controlled church, and liberals have been using this to say that Christianity should be banned from public display ever since. Let the muslims build a tower and give their discordant, strident call to prayer 5 times a day--including late at night and early morning--over a public loudspeaker, but for crying out loud don't let people read the Declaration of Independence; it has the G word in it and it might offend somebody!!!

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:17 pm

Do you have anything better to do then post about religion everytime it suits your fancy?

Sergeant Thorne · Post by **Sergeant Thorne** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 9:40 pm

Screw "turkey day", it's Thanksgiving.

Who the heck has a problem with "Thanksgiving"? Just changing the name of something like that bothers me; if they don't like it, they just shouldn't celebrate it. /me racks his shotgun, "step away from the holiday!" As for Christmas, that bothers me for the same reason, because it's the same BS, but Christmas actually has very unchristian roots, I learned. It was adapted to "christianity" by the Catholic church.. the tree has its origins in some pagan practice involving trees (tree worship?).

Disclaimer: Sergeant Thorne gets very territorial when it comes to large quantities of turkey, stuffing, and pumpkin pie; for your own safety, please keep a safe distance. Should you ever happen to join Thorne in a meal consisting of any of the previously mentioned dishes, be sure to wear fire retardant clothing, and never attempt to look directly at the flashing silverware.

Plebeian · Post by **Plebeian** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:00 pm

Sergeant Thorne wrote:As for Christmas, that bothers me for the same reason, because it's the same BS, but Christmas actually has very unchristian roots, I learned. It was adapted to "christianity" by the Catholic church.. the tree has it's origins in some pagan practice involving trees (tree worship?).

Yep, the celebration of Christmas on December 25th, and lots of the symbols included in the celebration, are taken from various pagan symbols around the Winter Solstice. Last I remember, the consensus was that Jesus was born sometime in the spring, not on an exact December day, but the Christians did this (I believe) to incorporate the pagans' practices all into a single all-encompassing holiday season. You know, so no one's left out or anything. (There may have been more specifics, as well, I just remember the vague idea.)

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:11 pm

Festivus for the rest of us!

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:16 pm

Yes, the exact roots of Christmas are a pagan holiday, adapted to suit the Catholic Church's needs. However, whatever its roots, it has been a part of Christian (and pagan) tradition for well over 1000 years. Why change the name NOW? Christmas has been around for much, MUCH longer than 1,000 years. Why change now? If Christianity is so easily dismissed and such a laughable concept, WHY DO PEOPLE HATE IT ENOUGH TO REMOVE A HISTORICAL DOCUMENT OR MAJOR HOLIDAY THAT HAS A WORD IN IT THAT SOMEWHAT RELATES TO CHRISTIANITY?

As for your post, tyranny--I think you would stand up for the core thing that you believe in. Christianity isn't a religion so much as it is a lifestyle. Just as you would defend your freedom to do almost anything you want (and you should, too) I defend my faith against those who would trample on it, and are actively persecuting Christians.

And every time it suits my fancy? I opted out of one topic about it because the author seemed to not want me to post any more. Other than that, I think I've been fairly consistent in posting in topics I have a strong interest in.

Plebian, I think your description pretty much sums up the creation of Christmas. The church leaders of the time decided that, instead of having the converted pagans practice their religion along with the "Christianity" that they were FORCED to accept (and thus was, for the most part, not valid), they would have the pagans put all of their religious symbols, icons, and holidays into one day.

Besides this, the calendars were getting full.

Seriously, strange as it may seem, from what I've read every 3rd day or so was a holiday. The Catholics (and more importantly the government) wanted to keep their people working at LEAST 4 days a week; and thus they decided that it would be better to get most of the festive season over in one big holiday, instead of spreading it out over the year and majorly disrupting the economy of the country. So governments were quite happy about the new "Christmas" holiday. it was called "Christ"mas because A. the Catholics didn't want a large public holiday named after a pagan god, and B. because everyone in Europe, governments, civilians, and animals, were supposed to be "Christian". Even though that is obviously false, the name of Christ was probably used quite often, and it would have been only natural to call the holiday Christmas.

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:19 pm

I'm also sick n tried of having to say "happy Holidays' when it's frigin XMAS!!!!

I think a lot of Christians take this personal, when I believe it is just good business. By saying "holiday" you simply reach a larger audience. That's all.

I don't think any business is worried about "offending" people over this issue. I think they just care about reaching out to "more" people.

Honest to God I have never found someone who was offended at being told "merry Christmas." I know they exist somewhere because Fox News parades them out like transvestites on Jerry Springer.

But in my personal experience they just don't exist.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:46 pm

I have two issues with Christmas as it stands now:

1. Its being made way too politically correct, as the sentiments already posted have shown and;

2. It's super commercialized beyond all possible comprehension. I am so sick of how all the holidays, especially Christmas, are now being made to center around shopping, sales, and merchandise. Whatever happened to the Christmas holiday being about family and loved ones? I say we should find some way to punish people who commercialize Christmas and divert it from the more wholesome meanings behind it.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:41 am

Stryker wrote:Other than that, I think I've been fairly consistent in posting in topics I have a strong interest in.

That is exactly my point. Everytime I see you post anything in E&C it has something to do with religion. I've seen you explain things very politely in some and then in others you act as if you're besieged by non-stop attacks and feel the need to flame everyone with your beliefs hoping they'll just go away.

Religions come and go, very slowly, but it does happen. The deities of today will eventually be replaced just as our current ones replaced those of ancient man. It's just the way of things. Believe what you want, but nobody is launching an assault on you or your religion.

You've made it personal for some reason, and frankly, you're the kind of person that make atheists or agnostics dislike religion even more. You remind me a great deal of the character from Sinfest Here and here or finally here.

I understand all about defending beliefs. There is a time and place however. Personally this wasn't one of them, it was more a topic of political correctness in the scheme of things. It's more then something that is just hurting your religion. PC goes far beyond that IMO. It completely underminds personal responsibility and it allows people to play whatever minority card as crutch to gain sympathy and support for whatever cause.

We've reverted to a system of "moral rules" that are very similar to what some bad people within organized religion used to keep people from speaking the truth. Fortunately I can't be arrested and punished for calling a man black instead of African American or for calling an Indian an Indian instead of a Native American.

Political Correctness is bull--shiat. It infringes on my rights to say whatever the hell I want by playing the guilt game. As I said in another thread, I don't care if I hurt someone elses feelings. Grow a pair and deal with it. Be a grown up for cripes sake and take some personal responsibility. These retards that keep pushing for this stuff want to make everyone in America feel guilty just for saying something that is on their mind most of the time. They want to change our way of life into something more ..... decent and acceptable.

Sounds boring and just plain retarded if you ask me

People need to lighten up and look at the bigger picture. Instead of throwing a little temper tantrum like a 4 year old because something was printed, or titled or spoken and you took it to mean something derogatory.

We shouldn't have to bend over backwards to satisfy the feelings of a few IMO.

CUDA · Post by **CUDA** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:28 am

Gooberman wrote:
I'm also sick n tried of having to say "happy Holidays' when it's frigin XMAS!!!!
I think a lot of Christians take this personal, when I believe it is just good business. By saying "holiday" you simply reach a larger audience. That's all.

I don't think any business is worried about "offending" people over this issue. I think they just care about reaching out to "more" people.

Honest to God I have never found someone who was offended at being told "merry Christmas." I know they exist somewhere because Fox News parades them out like transvestites on Jerry Springer.

But in my personal experience they just don't exist.

well I have met some in my dealings with ppl. mostly they are Jewish. granted it is rare. also the calling of it a holiday I'm sure that if the same ppl that are screaming to remove religion from everything and to start saying happy holidays instead of merry Christmas knew that happy Holidays meant happy "holy" days they'd probably crap thier pants. this country has gotten so PC that it sickens me, and in its attempt to not "offend" anyone they have trampled on my rights as a christian to express my beliefs like they express theirs and that offends me

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:06 am

CUDA wrote:this country has gotten so PC that it sickens me, and in its attempt to not "offend" anyone they have trampled on my rights as a christian to express my beliefs like they express theirs and that offends me

How has a company trying to appeal to a larger base of people have ANYTHING to do with you expressing your beliefs? Nobody is stopping ANYBODY from saying Merry Christmas.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:26 am

Most of you can guess that I'm not religiously orientated. With that said, I do not for one second care if someone calls it Christmas or has a nativity scene or anything. I know the holiday is religious, that does not bother me. I wish these people that are actually bothered by that kind of stuff would get on a big boat, float to an island, and start the most PC govt of all time.

Perediablo · Post by **Perediablo** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:52 pm

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!! oh, and a belated happy Thanksgiving!

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:41 pm

Tetrad wrote:Nobody is stopping ANYBODY from saying Merry Christmas.

Oh really?

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:18 pm

Schools are hotbeds of pseudointellectual fascism. That's beside the point.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:24 pm

Tetrad wrote:Schools are hotbeds of pseudointellectual fascism. That's beside the point.

Are they just as pseudointellectual as you make yourself out to be in your posts? Or do they simply disregard contrary evidence? Maybe I should amend your post:

"Nobody is stopping ANYBODY from saying Merry Christmas. Except the teachers stopping little kids. And teaching them young will have absolutely no effect on their further development. Right." Wrong.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:13 pm

Fine, I'll amend it myself.

"Nobody is stopping ANYBODY from saying Merry Christmas on an individual basis."

Bet51987 · Post by **Bet51987** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:00 pm

Hmmmm.....I see none of this in my school. We say Merry Christmas whenever we want....Some classrooms have it written on some walls too.
Although I'm not a religious person, I do believe that Jesus was born on that day....conventionally of course. Glad this stuff is not in my school.....

Bettina

Hahnenkam · Post by **Hahnenkam** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:41 pm

Unless I know that the person I am addressing celebrates Christmas, I say "happy holidays." I'm not worried about offending anyone. I just try to have respect for other beliefs.

Honestly, I suspect most non-Christmas-celebrators are not offended by the "Merry Christmas" greeting, it's just that those who do get offended by it tend to make more of a fuss. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Anyone who takes offense at a well-intentioned remark such as "Merry Christmas" needs to chill out and have some more spiked egg nog. I wouldn't be offended if someone were to come up to me and say "Merry Kwanzaa."

It's sad that people worry about stuff like this, when there are far more important things to worry about in life.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:18 pm

This debate comes up every year. The fact of the matter is that people have gotten so thin skinned that they can't say anything anymore. I hate the left, I hate the right, and I hate political correctness. and I hate "Christian" holidays, when ALL OF THEM (Christmas, Easter, All Saint's Day, etc) came from pagan origins and were adapted to Christian teachings to ease the conversion of pagans in Rome to Christianity without denying them all of their usual pagan festivals.

Just say what you want to say and stop worrying about it.

Merry Fist ing Christmas.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:29 am

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:46 am

And a Happy Christmahankwanzaa to you all.

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:23 am

BaH!!! Humbug.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:38 am

Scrooge you FC.

Foil · Post by **Foil** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:51 pm

(This is my first post here, I've been lurking and reading through posts during lunch for a couple of days.)

I think I should jump in and add a couple of observations about this debate.

- There seems to be a misconception by some that the current trend toward "Political Correctness" somehow affects their own personal rights to use terminology and phrases with religious meanings. It doesn't (see: right to free speech). Unless, of course, one is speaking or writing on behalf of a Federal institution, such as public schools. In that case, there's a good reason for the restrictions; namely, that the Federal Government should not be promoting any particular religion/denomination (see: state-run churches throughout history, current brutality in some countries toward people with 'non-approved' beliefs).
However, the issue begins to blur when you start discussing something like a music production at a public school; how do you balance the concern for the diversity of students with the desire to stay true to the traditions and beliefs of the holiday?

- At times there also seem to be a couple of misguided schools of thought:
One group feels that the integrity of their religion is somehow being intentionally attacked by this shift toward P.C., and thus see this as a war to be fought against a conspiracy. I've heard people who fit into this group say things like, "(The Government/ACLU/etc.) is nothing but a bunch of pagans whose only goal is to destroy (insert religion/denomination here) by removing prayer from schools!"
Another group feels that everyone should just celebrate the holidays in their own way, and not care in the least what effect it has on anyone else. I've heard this group say things like, "People should just say/do whatever they want, and #$&* everyone else!"
Now, I'm clearly over-exaggerating here, but the problem is that both groups put entirely too much emphasis on their own worldview, or lack thereof.

Honestly, though, the debate in here (the forum in general, not just this thread) is generally pretty good. I've only seen a few truly bizarre statements, and it appears that some good debate has been fostered.

One last observation:
- woodchip's initial post mentioned the selfish commercialism that seems to be slowly taking over the holiday season, but no one seemed to touch on that topic much. Interesting....

Flabby Chick · Post by **Flabby Chick** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:10 pm

Foil wrote:I've only seen a few truly bizarre statements........

Stick around cherub.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:53 am

Foil wrote:One last observation:
- woodchip's initial post mentioned the selfish commercialism that seems to be slowly taking over the holiday season, but no one seemed to touch on that topic much. Interesting....

That is because the commercialization of the holidays isn't anything new. It really hasn't gotten worse year after year. It's to be expected and just as much a part of the culture as anything else anymore.

You seemed to have misunderstood the arguement of Political Correctness however. Atleast from the first side of thought that you mentioned. PC isn't intended to strip religion of it's voice. If anything it coddles religion and shields religious people from things that they might take offense to.

For the most part it is done out of respect for someone elses beliefs but as someone else mentioned here it shouldn't make any difference what other people practice even if it makes a minority of people uncomfortable.

Up to a point that is. It really doesn't effect much on an individual level until steps are taken to deprive the majority of doing things that it would normally do just to please the minority. That isn't right at all.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:53 am

Tyranny wrote: That is because the commercialization of the holidays isn't anything new. It really hasn't gotten worse year after year. It's to be expected and just as much a part of the culture as anything else anymore.

Not exactly true. Starting from my perspective way back in the fifties, Christmas advertising didn't really get started until after Thanksgiving. Displays for Christmas weren't put up until December and Thanksgiving was treated as it's own special season. Now we have Christmas displays going up in October and Thanksgiving is just a day to stuff yourself in preparation for Black Friday. While looking from year to year won't make the trend apparent, looking back a few decades will present a different perspective.

Tyranny wrote:Up to a point that is. It really doesn't effect much on an individual level until steps are taken to deprive the majority of doing things that it would normally do just to please the minority. That isn't right at all.

Such as a minority of people forcing the removal of nativity scenes from public property or even the removal of the ten commandments from a certain courthouse. The trend in P.C. is if you can't protect everyones feelings then remove anything that the majority may want...just to be on the safe side.

Oh, welcome to the board Foil...just remember to keep you're panties loose and check your sanity at the door.

Arol · Post by **Arol** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:31 pm

Screw PC!

A Very Merry Christmas To You All.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:07 pm

Arol's right! Whether you're christian or not, you better have a damn Merry Christmas, and that's THAT!

God help you if you don't have a Merry Christmas. But only the christian God. We don't like that Allah fag.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 4:20 pm

Happy Angst-Filled Reactionary Whinefest to you too, Vertigo.

Avder · Post by **Avder** » Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:38 pm

MERRY CHRISTMAHANUKWANZA TO ALL YOU FRIGGIN' BASTARDS!!!!

I think i'm gonna start celebrating Festivus, because I got a lot of problems with you people!