DescentBB

not really, CUDA. Are you suggesting the 'coalition of the willing'?? Because, that clusterfeck got us lip service, and very little actual effort. What occurred last night was the biggest risk I have seen the Arab world take since the ill-thought-out attack upon Israel in 1968.

this is the FIRST US administration that I can remember that actually enlisted and received real military efforts from the Arab Muslim world in cleaning up the mess in their backyard

Gulf War paricipants

Kuwait
United States
Saudi Arabia
United Kingdom
France
Egypt
Syria
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan
Canada
United Arab Emirates
Qatar
Bangladesh
Italy
Australia
Netherlands
Niger
Sweden
Argentina
Senegal
Spain
Bahrain
Belgium
Poland
South Korea
Czechoslovakia
Greece
Denmark
New Zealand
Hungary
Norway

these are the ones that I know are Muslim, not sure about a few of them in that list

my point is that most of those gave NOTHING but lip service. Do you recall actually bombing runs or other military actions out of the Muslim nations? Now, as I noted, we eventually get to the 'boots on the ground' part, and THAT had better be done by Muslims this time around or we've done nothing except set up yet another round of hatred and resentment towards the US(see Sigma).

I do recall one of the first Iraqi war planes being shot down by a Saudi

Daddy Bush did better than Bush Jr., at least with getting Arab coalition members. Bush Jr. lost some of Europe and all of Canada with his little adventure and even Arab nations were in outright opposition. That should tell you something.

H.W. Bush - Gulf War

Blue - participating or in support



=========================

Bush Jr. - Iraq War

Orange - participating

yellow - in support, not participating

Blue - in opposition

my point is that most of those gave NOTHING but lip service. Do you recall actually bombing runs or other military actions out of the Muslim nations?

and from what I have heard there has been no confirmation of any attacks from any coalition member outside the U.S. and France. there is no reports confirming any Muslim nation participation with any military yet.


FYI this is not a bag on Obama

I don't understand. Don't these radicals know Obama has a half muslim sister and he is reaching out to them with concern for how they live?

He should be able to rally at least more muslim support than those warmongering, oil stealing, racist Bushes!

TC where's your map for the current conflict?

CUDA, by now, I would expect that you have seen the confirmation from the Bahraini press of air attacks by 4 different Muslim nations(UAE, Bahrain, Saudis and Jordanians). That should end that speculation. France did nothing last evening that I've heard, but was involved the other day. Now, the big question is whether Turkey will stand up. Thus far, they have proven to be ISIS closet ally.

Oh, and thanks, Will, for the oh-so-predictable Obama hate and the associated lies. You contribute so much here, you should be proud of yourself!

callmeslick wrote:
Oh, and thanks, Will, for the oh-so-predictable Obama hate and the associated lies. You contribute so much here, you should be proud of yourself!

I am always pleased to make you fall back on desperately declaring the truth a lie in order to try and diminish the impact it has on your rhetoric..

CUDA wrote:TC where's your map for the current conflict?

No one's made one yet because all we've heard so far has come from the mouth of John Kerry. We all know how reliable that information is.

tunnelcat wrote:

CUDA wrote:TC where's your map for the current conflict?

No one's made one yet because all we've heard so far has come from the mouth of John Kerry. We all know how reliable that information is.

TRUE TRUE

you people don't exactly dig too far for your news, do ya?

well to be honest. it just happened last night. and this Morning I was busy with Breakfast, a shower, a ★■◆● and a PM and saying a proper good bye to Momma before I went to work, and I've not had a chance to really do much but skim today

wasn't so much referring to you, CUDA, but thanks for the TMI report


Someone actually wrote that 'all we know is what Kerry said'. At the point I read that here, I hadn't heard word one from Kerry.
I had read Bahraini and Jordanian press releases confirming use of aircraft piloted by them, and THAT IS HUGE, Why? Because admitting to their own populace that they used air power against Sunnis anywhere is a huge risk for them. However, such a risk has to be part of this whole effort, lest it become the Great Satan dictating to poor woebegone Muslims in the regional view. As for US press releases, I have mostly heard stuff from the Pentagon, which is not Kerry's beat.

If Obama succeeds in getting a coalition of muslims to bomb ISIS that is a good step but if a few bombing runs is all they help with then it is a minor token and probably purchased by Washington at a high price.

If he succeeds in getting a coalition of muslims to put the men on the ground in the numbers required to deliver a crushing defeat that scatters ISIS to the wind and it creates a new paradigm of Islam rejecting radicalism then Obama is a great leader and deserves credit for having a leadership role in that event. More than just some credit, he will have earned every bit of currently false praise he has received, peace prize, etc. etc.

Will Robinson wrote:If Obama succeeds in getting a coalition of muslims to bomb ISIS that is a good step but if a few bombing runs is all they help with then it is a minor token and probably purchased by Washington at a high price.

actually, all reports have it that Kerry has managed to get THEM to foot the bill for cleaning up some of this mess.

If he succeeds in getting a coalition of muslims to put the men on the ground in the numbers required to deliver a crushing defeat that scatters ISIS to the wind and it creates a new paradigm of Islam rejecting radicalism then Obama is a great leader and deserves credit for having a leadership role in that event. More than just some credit, he will have earned every bit of currently false praise he has received, peace prize, etc. etc.

actually, that was the stated goal, repeated this morning. Most(let's face it, we have some advisors there) of the boots on the ground will be local. Time will tell, but I applaud your openness to admitting the plan, if successful, is praiseworthy.

callmeslick wrote:wasn't so much referring to you, CUDA, but thanks for the TMI report


Someone actually wrote that 'all we know is what Kerry said'. At the point I read that here, I hadn't heard word one from Kerry.
I had read Bahraini and Jordanian press releases confirming use of aircraft piloted by them, and THAT IS HUGE, Why? Because admitting to their own populace that they used air power against Sunnis anywhere is a huge risk for them. However, such a risk has to be part of this whole effort, lest it become the Great Satan dictating to poor woebegone Muslims in the regional view. As for US press releases, I have mostly heard stuff from the Pentagon, which is not Kerry's beat.

I was joking slick. I know that CUDA "dislikes" John Kerry.

I sure hope that some of these "Arab partners" are also footing part of the bill. I'll bet their participation is pretty small compared to what we're putting forth though. I guess Republicans don't mind war spending contributing to our debt.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/21852 ... f-isis-war

Remember that old saw about "advisers" in Vietnam, who eventually turned into lots of "soldiers" on the ground. I'm betting that our "advisers" will eventually turn into lots of "soldiers" when the military finally figures out that air bombing is not a sufficient method to completely destroy ISIS.

Thank god we have Bush to blame.

He pretty much set the stage for things to come. He pulled out the final block holding up the unstable tower. Obama is just following course, because the U.S. now has to, unless you have a better solution to deal with these madmen.

Well, wonders be! A woman pilot from an Arab Nation, the UAE, of all things, kicking ISIS ass from a jet fighter! Go for it woman!

http://news.yahoo.com/female-uae-pilot- ... 19981.html

tunnelcat wrote:Well, wonders be! A woman pilot from an Arab Nation, the UAE, of all things, kicking ISIS ass from a jet fighter! Go for it woman!

http://news.yahoo.com/female-uae-pilot- ... 19981.html

that, along with Arab nations even publicly admitting involvement and support, is huge beyond words.

Still, nothing warms my heart more than to see a female whoop the behinds of a bunch of paternalistic, repressive, Islamist nut jobs.

Just another coward, according to you two.

Spidey wrote:Just another coward, according to you two.

really? How so? Oh yes, because she isn't flying kamikaze missions.

Spidey wrote:Just another coward, according to you two.

She's flying a fighter that can be shot down, and we know these guys probably have the missiles to do it. I wouldn't want to be an combatant woman pilot shot down in Islamist territory and captured alive, so that really takes balls. Bravery. Flying a drone and firing missiles doesn't carry the same personal risk to the pilot that flying an aircraft does. Bush couldn't even do his job in the National Guard right. Loser, I mean coward.

Hey….I was just referring to both of your comments on just who the cowards are…in reference to standing up and clapping about Bill Maher’s comments.

You both inferred we were the cowards and the terrorists were the brave ones…going to deny it now?

You know search works…right?

I acknowledged as much. For the record, a reading of Mahers words weren't to call our people cowards, but to wonder why one would refer to a suicide pilot as one. Big difference in semantics, there.

Anyone who kills the defenseless is a coward, plain and simple…also has no honor.

Didn't Mahr go beyond suggesting the Islami-kazi's were brave. I thought he refered to regular military pilots as cowards.

no, he did not.

“We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly.”

Ok, so he made the comment about the guys in the Navy and not our Air Force. Same basic thing slick..way to dodge the point.
He didn't just say it takes bravery to fly a suicide mission. He juxtaposed the two and attributed cowardice to the U.S. servicemen in comparison to the Islami-kazi's.

Spidey wrote:Anyone who kills the defenseless is a coward, plain and simple…also has no honor.

Not cowards, crazies. It still takes nerve to deliberately kill oneself in a violent fashion like that. A coward would never be able to follow through with the action in the first place. Now someone who's crazy will do anything stupid.

Will Robinson wrote:Same basic thing slick..way to dodge the point.

Not at all. Sitting on a ship several hundred miles away from any danger is different than flying a fighter jet into a warzone. Jets and helicopters do get shot down. Check out this list from the Iraq War.

ships don't get hit or sunk??

not to mention, just because we are smarter then you and we have better technology we aren't supposed to use it???

tunnelcat wrote:

Spidey wrote:Anyone who kills the defenseless is a coward, plain and simple…also has no honor.

Not cowards, crazies. It still takes nerve to deliberately kill oneself in a violent fashion like that. A coward would never be able to follow through with the action in the first place. Now someone who's crazy will do anything stupid.

Having nerve and being brave are two different things.

Anyone can hype themselves up to do a thing, but it takes real guts to own up to what you just did.

vision wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:Same basic thing slick..way to dodge the point.

Not at all. Sitting on a ship several hundred miles away from any danger is different than flying a fighter jet into a warzone. Jets and helicopters do get shot down. Check out this list from the Iraq War.

So the guys launching missiles are just cowards? That is the crux of their service? No examination of the circumstances that led them to follow that launch order needed before you blanketly declare the missile crew cowards in that 'comparison'?

I find the comparison to be apples and ad hominem. Maherism Gratuitous .

Will Robinson wrote:So the guys launching missiles are just cowards?

Nah, it probably takes a little more nerve to get that close to the action though. I don't think anyone in our armed services are cowards. However, there is a good chance some of the people firing long distance missiles and flying drones would not have the stomach to fight on the front lines, so there is a level of abstraction that lends itself to feeling adverse about combat. Not that any of it matters. Wars are fought based on the return on investment. It's all about the numbers on the bottom line. Human lives are just overhead.

Will Robinson wrote:“We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly.”

as in WE, as a nation. And, in a sense he was EXACTLY right. We have gotten comfortable with military action, as we can sit at our remote location, and in some cases even those launching cruise missles can sit safely hundreds of miles away, and kill, maim and destroy without missing a sip of our morning coffee. To be aggressive in that reality towards other nations CAN be seen as cowardly, or more to my mind callous.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:“We have been the cowards. Lobbing cruise missiles from two thousand miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building. Say what you want about it. Not cowardly.”

as in WE, as a nation. And, in a sense he was EXACTLY right. We have gotten comfortable with military action, as we can sit at our remote location, and in some cases even those launching cruise missles can sit safely hundreds of miles away, and kill, maim and destroy without missing a sip of our morning coffee. To be aggressive in that reality towards other nations CAN be seen as cowardly, or more to my mind callous.

So to keep the comparison apples to apples you would have to also say all Muslims are brave for their part in blowing up the twin towers killing thousands of innocent cowards. Their complacency and submissiveness to the violent side of their religion has made them complicit to mass murder. They can be seen by others as an extremely dangerous group.