DescentBB

heh, actually we dont use smarts to its full potential, i might start trying that actually

Here's the 4 ways in which I use smarts.

1) Plant directly into ground or wall in close-combat in an attempt to immediately hit my opponent.

2) Switch to Smarts when I open a door in a 1v1 and plant them directly into the ground outside, to see if it tracks or not. I will only do this if I'm concerned my opponent might be hiding outside the door waiting to nail me as I come out. In this way the Smart is used more as a detector than anything else.

3) If I see an opponent going one way and I'm predicting his path, I might lob a smart down a long tunnel in anticipation of where he will be. Timing wise, the smart should hit the ground near an opening right as he turns to look out of it. This is also primarily for 1v1.

4) Plant a Smart in a dogfight to get an opponent moving one way, then aim my primary shot to where he will have to go. In this scenario, I'm not really hoping for the smart to connect, more that it will cramp my opponent giving him less room to operate (and a more predictable path for a couple seconds)

As far as I can tell, there's not much else use for them.

I call napalm rocket.
Fast... 1HKO... creates sub-munitions.

If used properly, you can hit someone in the face and watch them die, or rain death from above. Which is what i don't see anyone doing with it...? I have never seen someone fire a NR into the ceiling above the retard fest happening below. Thats what I do to TheWhat and friends when I (rarely) play buring indica.

sounds like some good ideas, i like to use vauss and get the shield orb showing in online games then just fire a nape directly at the shield orb
easy toaster.

smarts are very versatile especially when you hit someone in the mouth with them maybe a good idea would be switching to plasma whilst in a dogfight to throw off the pace, then use a smart after you've hit him with a few concussions so he cant hear it

theres plenty of hypothetical kills available to occur, lets see some demos of people actually trying to demonstrate what they say they do!

S13driftAZ wrote:I call napalm rocket.
Fast... 1HKO... creates sub-munitions.

If used properly, you can hit someone in the face and watch them die, or rain death from above. Which is what i don't see anyone doing with it...? I have never seen someone fire a NR into the ceiling above the retard fest happening below. Thats what I do to TheWhat and friends when I (rarely) play buring indica.

I often try to get the direct hit with the napalm, but it never works. You SEE the missile hit, the ship does not burn. You destroy the enemy, continue on your merry way, and smack into the inviza fire from the Nape that "hit" your target. Other times, it does burn them and it disappeares and turns into inviza fire. Then your rocket hits the floor, your enemy scrubs his ass across said floor into the fire, catches all of it, and does not burn, and then you run into inviza fire.

I always try to put a napalm above a dogfight, but I never seem to get anything.



AND THEN IT TURNS INTO INVIZA FIRE!
(please let 1.5 patch fix this. Kevin, if you're out there...)


Oh, and back on topic. **** tanks and their tri-fusion! Any cramped levels like BI and Skybox is impossible in any other ship other than the Magnum. Any other level and they are toast.

Weapons that appear in all 3 games:

- Lasers
- Concussions
- Homers
- The V Cannons (if you consider vauss to be the logical continuation of vulcan)
- plasma
- smart missiles
- fusion
- mega missiles

IMO, weapons with homing properties aren't GOAT candidates because homing is lame. Also, anyone who played D1 or D2 open games is familiar with missile duplication, which is extra lame. So Homers, Smarts, and Megas are out.

Weapons that were ridiculously nerfed or changed too much from game to game aren't GOAT candidates either. D2's NerFusion and the change from Vulcan to Vauss remove both of those from consideration. Under this same argument, I'll remove lasers from consideration because of the 4 / 6 / 2 levels and the major color change. And I'll remove plasma because it was overly effective in D2, but slow and small and inconsistent ship-to-ship in D3.

Final verdict: Concussion Missiles for GOAT!

A well-thought out breakdown.

However, I would probably file Concs under a 'Most Underrated' Category. There probably isn't a weapon in the game that is underrated more than the Concussion. It's the lil missile that could. It doesn't really resonate as something 'great', though.

I'm going to set the record straight. Homing is not lame, you are.

<3

It takes skill to use a homing weapon effectively against an experienced opponent.

Overall I vote Fusion. Definitely.

Lothar... you forgot proximity bombs. Sure, they're a \"countermeasure\" in D3, but they behave kinda similarly.

Are they underrated? That depends whether the popular opinion of them was right or not, but it definitely could have been. Still, nobody expected you to actually use them, so it was one of those tricks that might work once per game.

DarkHorse wrote:Fusion was a giant piece of ***** in every game except D3. Doesn't even qualify.

Lasers or plasma only.

You never played Warlord in d1, did you? D1 fusion was the best fusion, in my opinion. Harder to aim than d3 fusion.

I think the quadlaser is pretty good. It does good damage and lets you use the outer wingtip gunports on the Pyro GX. Sure, plasma is great and I use it more admittedly than quads (And d3 plasma is unusable for me).
Plasma is a great weapon in d1 and d2 both, especially for ratters and dogfighters. I use spread a lot in d1, because its a great close range weapon. I never use vulcan much other than to mix it up.
Gauss is always my second-fiddle weapon in d2, only used less than plasma. However, if I'm in a low ping and someone keeps rushing me from in front, I'll switch to gauss.
I use proxy bombs a lot, theyre my center mouse button. And smart mines too. I'll put them in my strategy and theres the occasional player who messes up and flies too close to them.
Smart missiles are one of my favorites. I love to perfectly time smarts around corners, because nothing makes me more satisfied than nailing a 100-shield pyro who uses the burner a little too much
Concs are great in many situations. In some spots, they're better than homers (Homing missiles give you the lock signal whereas the conc doesnt do anythng)
Megas were pretty good, but theres the huge blast radius to consider. I don't like d3 megas.
The shaker missile is another story. A single shaker changes the tempo of an entire level!

Overall, my choice for best weapon: The flare.

The flare isn't even a weapon, heh
But i guess if people consider anything that damages a ship a weapon i vote for the wall bump with AB!

seriously, I also would like to point out that the majority of fusion haters are made up of the pilots who think that flying in a circle for 2 hours while spraying lasers or plasma at each other qualifies as a true BADA** dogfight bro!

Open your minds a little, Children of the flock.

Darktalyn1 wrote:I said...

When you think of Descent, one of the first things you think of is Fusion.

DarkHorse said..

No.

You're right, you probably think of the Space Bar you tap while trying to respawn, lol!

I have that mapped to the afterburner, and I tended to get a kill ratio of at least 3 to 1, so no.

The first weapon that comes to mind is, oddly enough, quad lasers. The first robot is the Class 1 Driller.

I don't recall if I ever played Warlord personally. He certainly wasn't using Fusion if so; none of the guys I ever played on the IDL did in a match. The use a weapon got was proportional to how good it was. In D1, people usually played with either Plasma or quad 4s. Spreadfire and Vulcan had niches that saw occasional use. Fusion had nothing. It was used even less than proximity bombs, which you could at least try to hide behind a door or corner.

In D3, to be honest, the only reason you'd ever use any primary other than the Mass Driver is that there was no MD or you were out of ammo. So while Fusion was definitely competing for second place there, it did have good play time amidst quad lasers, microwave and vauss.

that's funny, warlord uses tons of fusion.

Behemoth wrote:that's funny, warlord uses tons of fusion.

Maybe he's changed since the time he played IDL.
Anyway, I cant bring myself to learn to use Mass Driver that much. I don't like the cannon, and its a personal issue. D3 plasma is another weapon I can't use, for the reason that its about the same speed as a chording and afterburning ship. And its the size of a golf ball compared to the oldschool plasma.
Going back to D1 for this segment. Primary weapon use depends on the level a lot. For instance, you can use anything on Neptune, but in some levels like Zodiac, quads and plasma have a slight edge. It also depends on the amout of players in a game. 1v1 like IDL games require a lot more thought than a 3 or 4 player game on a similar level. I find myself using quads and plasma the most in 1v1, with vulcan never seeing use. Cram a few more players in, and you get people using every weapon, and getting kills with them. This is where fusion sees a lot of use. It helps that it goes right through ships, too.

Black Pyro Microwave is the ultimate weapon.

Descent 3 is absolutely dominated by the Mass Driver and Fusion cannons which trade for the top spot depending on the level. MD is a horrible crutch weapon that is simply too powerful to the point that in most levels it upsets the whole gameplay balance and fun of Descent. Sure it is a fun weapon for a while, but it gets old when everyone uses it constantly to the exclusion of all else (like in VV).

Fusion in D3 is also a little too easy to use (being able to charge and then shoot Fusion down a long hallway used to take some skill because it shook the ship so much). Fusion is also easier to use than other weapons because you only need one or two good hits to take someone down, with the weaker weapons it requires being on target a lot more to kill someone. With Fusion it is all about timing to land that one shot, it is much easier to pull timing with that style of weapon than it is to continually hit someone with regular fire.

Both the Mass Driver and Fusion are timing based weapons, they don't require as much skill at actually continually leading and holding your sights on an enemy. You only need to know where they are going to be at one precise moment, rather than constantly landing weaker shots on them. Fusion and MD dogfights suffer because of that timing style game pattern that they cause. Because people rely on them so much D3 is less pure action and more like some sort of turn-based combat system.

Although if I were to propose a solution, rather than nurfing Fusion and MD which people are very accustomed to and are fun to use because of it I would double the damage potential of everything else. The problem isn't how powerful Fusion and MD are, rather it is how weak everything else is by comparison.

Just get rid of the MD, tri-fusion, and the playing field would be balanced on all levels when skill would really take over.

Curing the disease by killing the patent?

Fix the other weapons to make them equal to MD and Fusion, or people will just go back to levels with MD and Fusion... I would regularly use plasma in those few levels where it was modded to be more like D1/D2 plasma, and I wasn't the only one.

i enjoy reading newblet opinions on how people should play the game of descent.

applaud

but enough jacktalk i'll toss some wood on the fire,
if those of you don't appreciate the top used weapons by the top players in d3 why don't you try learning how to dodge?
since when is it always made to look like the reason no one in descent has any fun is because people want to cry about sucking at the game? no one that plays well got to where they were at by having a pity party.

imho i don't like d3's super quads, plasma or microwave but they're the closest equivalents to 4's, plasma and spread so i know how to use them as well, i just choose not to spend 20 minutes in a dogfight to make sure everyone else has fun but me.

but seriously, if everyones opinion on fusion is so weighed down by a lack of skill either develop that weakness into a strength or get out of the oven.

A simple solution would be (and has been used before) add no MD ammo so you only get the 5 shots that come with the gun and disallow the thank (Magnum pyro). Dual fusion in D3 is tolerable.

Behemoth, honestly. You've been around long enough to have seen these discussions before. This really isn't a \"skill\" issue. One shot kill ALL the time is never good game play. It can be fun if that's what the game play is based around, but Descent is not. I know the MD isn't a real oneshotonekill weapon, but might as well be. The first shot scews your orientation so badly that by the time you are able to move in some direction other than at the wall your nose is at, you're hit again and dead.

One shot one kill. We have the insta-reap mod for that.

Unfortunately, if you deal with fusion and mass driver, you will immediately run into the problem with secondary weapons.

First of all, there are numerous 1 shot kill weapons in D3 and they're mostly all Secondaries. (basing it on the starting 100 shields)

5 off the top of my head...

1. Smart Missile
2. Impact Mortar
3. Frag (if placed correctly)
4. Napalm
5. Mega Missile

As for Fusion, yes it has the potential for 1 shot 1 kill but only if fully charged. If uncharged it does something like 35 damage, and a good charge might do upwards of 70 or 80. You really have to charge it up to get a 1 shotter.

MD isn't 1 shot 1 kill, takes 3 hits to finish someone off (or to finished a Phoenix 2 shots + a vauss tap). Yes, if you are hit by an MD shot it will disorient your ship, but it is absolutely possible to recover from it and cause the second shot to miss, getting you back into the fight.

I've been taken down in 2 by the MD. Out of a spawn you have 100 shields. 2 will do it. Besides that, the MD is instant. You can not realistically dodge it once it's been fired. The best you can do is guess where the other player is going to shoot and try not to be there.

We've been through this all before. and before and before. the MD has ALWAYS been a point of contention since the game came out. Always.

IMO, it broke the game play. You will not convince me otherwise.

I guarantee a ship with 100 shields will not go down to 2 md shots.

i agree with you there duper, the MD is not descent-like at all in terms of Descent type gameplay.

It added a factor into the game that shouldn't have been included but thats the fun of a game to learn how to cope and then master.

i could very easily say fusion is a cheap weapon but on the grounds that i can only think of about 3-4 guys that are actually half decent with it i wont.

Krom said something important back there about how there is less pressure in dogfights where you get one shot then you dodge, but most players don't try to master using quads OR plasma, otherwise i think i of all people would've seen it by now.

i also agree with krom that in order to be effective truly as a dogfighter you do NEED from time to time to switch things up and not get stuck with just using fusion/vauss fusion/md md/vauss vauss/secondaries
these are things I do, but i don't see other players doing this, so it's kinda of hypocritical for bulletin board jocks to talk on and on about who does this and that and who's wrong because of it.

wow. I just read through this entire post and not ONCE has ANYONE mentioned the biggest match breaker in the whole trilogy. the weapon that turns distances into nothing. the one weapon that will drop a player in two hits. the only weapon that's loved and hated by novices and veterans alike.

Ladies and gentlemen: I'm talking about the one.. the only...

MERCURY MISSILE.

If D3 fusion was a red-headed stepchild, it'd be slapped around every day by big daddy merc. it would ask to go to the bathroom every time. It would ask if it was okay to have seconds at supper. It would even be worried about staying up ten minutes past bed time in fear of being slapped just out of spite.

There has been moments that were just SCARY when you saw quads comin at you and then all of a sudden WHAM. Out of nowhere you get nailed by a mercury. Once that happened you knew it was game over.

oh and beh? \"forgot to add that everyone above me isn't worthy of calling you out on the whole d1 weapons are better deal, you guys need to actually play before you talk crap\"

LOL. really. just LOL.



Lothar: \"Final verdict: Concussion Missiles for GOAT!\" I woulnd't say GOAT, but i'd say a hell of a supporting weapon. why? two words: Thundercat's 'CONCUSSION!'.

... and the omega ....

ok ferny boy i'll be looking for you in kali tomorrow.

as for the mercury missile? seems like just an old shape of the same form that mass driver and nape rockets took over.

instant hit weapons should be countered by high damaging energy weapons that fire at high velocity and have a big hit area surface.

oh and btw get on MY level, before you go around LOL'ing things mr. red haired stepchild.

not quite instant hit. still dodgeable but it's tough to do.

I was on your level long ago. you still have lots to learn.


you're really gonna make me bust out my old rusty copy of kali? i'm not so sure the old bod can do it.

sadly you are mistaken homefry
the pilots you wished would play with you when you were in diapers bow to me.

Behemoth wrote:that's funny, warlord uses tons of fusion.

The competition these days is a lot easier so I'm not surprised.

Behemoth wrote:sadly you are mistaken homefry
the pilots you wished would play with you when you were in diapers bow to me.

you mean like kiln and neitzl? yeah i had a few games with them. they were damn fun to play.


Now what? LOL

I don't find the competition today is as good as it was when D3 came out plus a few years. There were more and better players playing and it was hard to get into a game of experienced players and keep 50% in it.

Huh, I see a lot of complaining, and lots of ideas, but very little actual playing of anything else.

For example: Where were you guys last night? We had a few great games in Damage (almost no MD, modded plasma... it made for a great variety of fights!).

It's really frustrating as a server-op. There are some GREAT well-balanced levels out there, but they rarely get played. The Indika crowd loves their tri-fusion, the Veins crowd loves their md, the Subway/Abend crowd loves their secondaries. But whenever I put anything else up, it usually sits empty.

Foil, I've had this discussion about other levels to play many times. People just don't want to play other levels. Another of the reasons I stopped playing.

Unless every single server had \"other\" levels no one will play them.

Out of curiousity, did some of you go by different names pre-D3? I only recognize a handful of people in this entire thread (Lothar of course, Ferno rings a bell, Merlin and Lobber if they are the same as the ones I recall from Kali, and Grendel if he's the guy from the Descent tournament years back).

Seems to be a lot of chest-puffing for some in here about their knowledge of D1/D2 (and the competition that existed pre-2k). Either that or the D community has more trolls now than it did in the Kali days.

That said, I make no claims of knowing anything of D3 except that I gave it a good 6-8 month try when it was released and followed the majority of the D community of the time in the belief that it was too different from the first 2 games to continue playing. It was a good game - that I won't argue - but it is like comparing Doom 3 to the first 2.

As for the original GOAT argument for Fusion, I still hold that a weapon cannot be the \"greatest\" if it is impractical in so many situations. It was a great dogfight weapon for a select few players and only against moths. I don't even think, aside from kiln, jackhammer, Wyvern, and some of the NYDP crew, anyone even USED the fusion prior to about 1997. I don't remember a single ladder match on the ODL or IDL in which anyone touched it, even Scoundrl. My vote for the spread is based on it's functionality in every possible situation. Up close it's lethal. From far away it's annoying as hell. Newbies and pros alike can use it. It can be easy or hard to dodge depending on skill level. Plasma comes in a close second.

The Merc discussion:
The merc missile was one of my fav additions to D2. Early on I used it a lot, especially in tandem with the gauss (the best D2 weapon, imo). There were a lot of players who were absolute carnivores with the merc, especially in big levels like Mori. That said, after about a year of D2 being out, it's use really fizzled. It became second nature to tri-cord in a \"U\" motion when the sound of gauss clanged off your ship and hitting a moving \"U\" was nearly impossible with the merc. There were still a few killers out there and anyone who had the honour to tangle with Karash, Chipmunk, Mjolnir, Rainbird or any of the PPG members can attest to the damage done. That said, still a great weapon and one of the better missiles.


Someone mentioned the flare ...that brings back the days of huge 8-way matches in the original Total Chaos series of only using flares. There were a few other levels that that was popular in but the names escape me - crazy fun tho. I think I miss the large coop battles the most. Starting around 9pm and spending the night beating the game. Hoard was also fun, although too seldom played

Upon further consideration, I'll alter my votes:

Game-Specific GOATS
D1: Spreadfire
D2: Gauss
D3: ?

All-time: the fake macro \"You killed <name>!\" I can't count the # of newbies I lured out using that Then you spend the next 5 minutes explaining to them what you did.

In D2 multi, I used Merlin, Lancelot and Arthur. In D3, I've used CDN_Merlin, MasterMerlin, Schumi, Just Moi.

Ferno wrote:wow. I just read through this entire post and not ONCE has ANYONE mentioned the biggest match breaker in the whole trilogy. the weapon that turns distances into nothing. the one weapon that will drop a player in two hits. the only weapon that's loved and hated by novices and veterans alike.

Ladies and gentlemen: I'm talking about the one.. the only...

MERCURY MISSILE.

Oh wow, I forgot the merc. Just goes to show you how little I've played since becoming busy with school again.
In comparing the merc missile to MD, the missile does give a slight amount of advance warning. In saying this, I mean that it isn't as instant as MD. You see it coming but don't usually have time to react to it.
As for D3, I'm not really in the room for discussion about the weapon balance. It's not my favorite game of the three, and I'll chose the older two over D3 any day. It's just what I am used to.

The napalm rocket in D3 kinda replaced the merc. It can be an instant kill if you hit someone square on.