DescentBB

Will Robinson wrote:I don't buy into the conspiracy stuff but one thing they seem to be pointing out is very unusual. The amount of pistol ammunition the DHS is buying is absolutely remarkable. Using the number of rounds of ammunition fired in the recent war in Iraq as a baseline the DHS has allegedly purchased enough .40 and 9mm pistol ammo to keep that rate of ammo use up for 30 years!

My best, non brownshirt type, conspiracy theory is they are trying to drive the price up/availability down but even that seems silly to me.

All I know is if the ammo purchase numbers are correct, and all the reports of previously non armed departments are now being armed are correct, there is no wonder at people thinking the government is gearing up for civil unrest.

from Politifact--highlights from me:
Homeland Security has contracted to buy up to 450 million .40-caliber bullets -- and that total exceeds the nation’s population. Significantly, though, the purchase contract covers five years; there’s no indication the agency is piling up the bullets in a hurry.More significantly, we found nothing to support the email’s ominous suggestions. Rather, the large size of the contract is explained as a way for the government to buy in bulk to save money on ammunition used routinely for training officers in a wide variety of agencies.

We rate the email Mostly False.

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:I don't buy into the conspiracy stuff but one thing they seem to be pointing out is very unusual. The amount of pistol ammunition the DHS is buying is absolutely remarkable. Using the number of rounds of ammunition fired in the recent war in Iraq as a baseline the DHS has allegedly purchased enough .40 and 9mm pistol ammo to keep that rate of ammo use up for 30 years!

My best, non brownshirt type, conspiracy theory is they are trying to drive the price up/availability down but even that seems silly to me.

All I know is if the ammo purchase numbers are correct, and all the reports of previously non armed departments are now being armed are correct, there is no wonder at people thinking the government is gearing up for civil unrest.

from Politifact--highlights from me:
Homeland Security has contracted to buy up to 450 million .40-caliber bullets -- and that total exceeds the nation’s population. Significantly, though, the purchase contract covers five years; there’s no indication the agency is piling up the bullets in a hurry.More significantly, we found nothing to support the email’s ominous suggestions. Rather, the large size of the contract is explained as a way for the government to buy in bulk to save money on ammunition used routinely for training officers in a wide variety of agencies.

We rate the email Mostly False.

How many "officers" does DHS employ? A friend here on the police force says that if those numbers are correct and he compares it to the training rounds expended per officer annually at the three police departments he's worked for over the last couple of decades they either have a whole hell of a lot more officers than he thinks they do or the answer is weak.

Will Robinson wrote:How many "officers" does DHS employ? A friend here on the police force says that if those numbers are correct and he compares it to the training rounds expended annually at the three police departments he's worked for over the last couple of decades they either have a whole hell of a lot more officers than he thinks they do or the answer is weak.

according to every article I have read, the DHS is responsible for training thousands of police officers nationwide. Thus, they provide the training rounds for them, not merely limited to use by DHS employees. Part of my highlighted text speaks to that.

You're saying that federal funding is used for local law-enforcement training?

Sergeant Thorne wrote:You're saying that federal funding is used for local law-enforcement training?

apparently, but I honestly don't know any details of the extent. I have read several articles that specifically stated that DHS is responsible for aspects of training of local personnel around the nation, and the numbers are in the thousands. Certainly Federal funding has been put into local law enforcement to various extents since Nixon.

callmeslick wrote:

Sergeant Thorne wrote:You're saying that federal funding is used for local law-enforcement training?

apparently, but I honestly don't know any details of the extent. I have read several articles that specifically stated that DHS is responsible for aspects of training of local personnel around the nation, and the numbers are in the thousands. Certainly Federal funding has been put into local law enforcement to various extents since Nixon.

From what I have read today they provide range time and training for agencies that work with them under the DHS scope of operations and of course for their own agencies which now includes Customs and Immigration. They have 200,000 employees, not sure how many carry weapons.

The number of rounds they have ordered total 1.5 BILLION over the next 5 years and if you count every gun carrying member of theirs, and of every organization they provide range time to the ammo still adds up to approximately 5 times their normal use per year.
Nice hollow point .40 and 9mm stuff too! None of that Geneva Convention military full metal jacket crap...these guys train with the good stuff.

Maybe it is just a smart, budget motivated, procurement....yea...because they are always so budget conscious! Lol. But maybe so...the scenario that requires the least assumptions prevails right?

Now, about those bullet proof toll booths they ordered....WTF? But if you need to herd lots of people off the road into your camp you'll need check points right?

I'm going to quit paying attention before I end up making tin foil hats for the kids! I've got my ammo, let them have theirs.

they secured the purchase of UP TO that many rounds.....not the same as actually purchasing that much. Big difference,Will, so you can save on tinfoil, at least for now.

Put your tin foil hat back on Will…I have seen this happen in my business and others….

A major buyer gathers up the entire production quota of a company…then defaults on the contract, leaving the company bankrupt, because they gave up their other contracts, to fill the big ones.

Just saying…

ok, that's actually a plausible theory......basically kill the supply for everyone else?

I guess that's one way to get gun control through...........

callmeslick wrote:

Spidey wrote:Listen…captain kneejerk, that Choom Gang reference came right out of a authorized bio on the president, and no f*in disrespect was meant by it.

Get a life.

returning, or attempting to, yet again, I want to hear more about the coming police state, because while I see lots of erosion of personal privacy and rights around private property, I don't get the feeling that Storm Troopers are at the door, or even preparing to be.

Maybe you are not in the "right " place:

"Bonnie Jonas-Boggioni, 65, and her husband were driving home to Plano, Texas from Columbus after attending her mother-in-law’s funeral when a pair of black police SUV’s stopped the couple a few miles outside of Memphis.

“Knowing I wasn’t speeding, I couldn’t imagine why,” Jonas-Boggioni told the Columbus Dispatch. “They were very serious. They had the body armor and the guns.”

“What are you doing with a marijuana sticker on your bumper?” one of the cops asked Jonas-Boggioni.

(AP)After trying to explain that the sticker was not a marijuana leaf and that she and her husband were not trafficking drugs cross-country, the police advised Jonas-Boggioni to remove the sticker as to not cause any more confusion."

So what we have are police pulling people over and harassing them because of a decal on the bumper. Last I checked even if it was a marijuana leaf decal, it is still not deemed probable cause to pull the car over. Yet these yahoo cops thought they would intimidate their way into searching the car until they found out the sticker was not what they thought it was. Heaven help the occupants if they were high school or college age kids that did have a marijuana sticker on their car.

The gist of this is someday some self important cop who thinks he can get away with something will trigger another Rodney King incident that will escalate far beyond the LA riots. Maybe it will be another Branch Davidian scenario that will be the catalyst where surrounding neighbors come to their defense and things spiral out of control from there. Time will tell and I hope I'm not around when it happens.

I get your point, Woody, but hasn't this sort of stuff been going in(in various forms) for, like, ever? I mean, I have spent a lot of time in rural Southern communities, and the idea that local cops sort of run little feifdoms is rather common. I can think of more than one little town in VA(and as I type this, a few more up in PA and New England) where the local cops delight in finding any excuse to pull over out-of-staters.

Yes it has slick, but I don't think low level harassment will be the trigger. It will be something bigger hence my reference to the Branch Davidians.

woodchip wrote:Yes it has slick, but I don't think low level harassment will be the trigger. It will be something bigger hence my reference to the Branch Davidians.

I read you, but the Waco thing doesn't impress me.....around these parts, those folks are/were viewed as nuttier than Aunt Janet's fruitcake. If some neighbors want to support some local group of loons someplace, the government will deal with them. If there is a critical mass of public support, the government will be diplomatic about things. I really don't see the potential for any sort of doomsday scenario. I do, however, see the precedents and legal framework in place, down the road, for a government to establish too much control, if voted in(during some economic or geopolitical crisis) legally, and supported by a large majority. Then, the potential exists for running roughshod over all who dissent. I look back at some of the mindset immediately post 9/11 and see the potential for a police state that, say, 70% of the nation supports......at the outset.

callmeslick wrote:ok, that's actually a plausible theory......basically kill the supply for everyone else?

There are many anti gun senators who have tried to get momentum behind legislation that would tax ammo to such an extreme that it would lead to disarming gun owners by lack of ammo. So that theory has a foundation.

How well did govt. diplomacy work prior to the Rodney King riots ?