DescentBB

callmeslick wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:I'd love it if a business owner had the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. I think It would be a sign of a healthy culture if that was the way it was and no one ever felt a need for a law to mandate otherwise.

There really can't be liberty with equality until then.

no culture would exist, though, with that level of common intolerance allowed to persist, let alone be encouraged.

You have made a couple of really bad assumptions there and in your following posts those mistakes play out to further lead your conclusions and declarations off track. But I think you are wilfully mis characterizing what I'm talking about so I'll leave you to your games.

Vander wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:That is the description of the human nature *after* the event I'm pointing you towards.

The identification of a common enemy is the quickest way to form a coalition. I nominate global capitalists.

The acceptance that the ancestors of your ancestors enemies are your enemies by default is a guarantee that you will have enemies for all your future generations unless you succeed at genocide.

The people that have sole possession of the trigger for writing the ancestral enemy out of the play are the ones who must forgive. It is forgiveness and only forgiveness that can open the door to progress.

There is no government program aimed at that goal. There is no community organization/agitation aimed toward that goal. There are only indictments of guilt by association and invoices past due for pounds of flesh being written.

No offended person is truly able to move beyond victimization until they forgive the offender.
Go ask the tribal leaders of Issac and Ishmael if you doubt it.

Ferno wrote:This thread went plaid at the start, Lothar.

Yeah, it went south when Sergeant Thorne started out with the words: "unhealthy relationships".

I agree with you. Forgiveness is absolutely necessary. But while you dismissed callmeslick, his point about time is very important. Enacting a law that specifies equal treatment is not a switch that when flipped forces forgiveness, for the thoughts and motivations that caused the unequal treatment, as well as the resentment it breeds, are still prevalent. It takes time, and this is all relatively recent history. There are people alive today that were born in that very different America. My grandmother was born before women had the right to vote. My mother grew up during a time when interracial marriage was illegal. It takes time.

In the case of African Americans, there are other non-racial societal factors involved that have only acted to slow the process. The offshoring of the manufacturing base occurred shortly after the civil rights movement. The acceleration of unequal wealth distribution at the same time exacerbated the situation. Basically, the process of elevating African Americans from second class status came just before a decades long decline of the middle and lower class, and the reduction of economic mobility.

So yes, black people need to forgive white people for slavery, even though the effects of the inequities are still very much prevalent. And white people need to respect the predicament black people are in, even though we have already acknowledged the abhorrence of our error and codified equal treatment. We are greatly progressed from where we were only a few decades ago, but it is an ongoing process. It takes time.

Vander wrote:I agree with you. Forgiveness is absolutely necessary. But while you dismissed callmeslick, his point about time is very important. Enacting a law that specifies equal treatment is not a switch that when flipped forces forgiveness, for the thoughts and motivations that caused the unequal treatment, as well as the resentment it breeds, are still prevalent. It takes time, and this is all relatively recent history. There are people alive today that were born in that very different America. My grandmother was born before women had the right to vote. My mother grew up during a time when interracial marriage was illegal. It takes time.

In the case of African Americans, there are other non-racial societal factors involved that have only acted to slow the process. The offshoring of the manufacturing base occurred shortly after the civil rights movement. The acceleration of unequal wealth distribution at the same time exacerbated the situation. Basically, the process of elevating African Americans from second class status came just before a decades long decline of the middle and lower class, and the reduction of economic mobility.

So yes, black people need to forgive white people for slavery, even though the effects of the inequities are still very much prevalent. And white people need to respect the predicament black people are in, even though we have already acknowledged the abhorrence of our error and codified equal treatment. We are greatly progressed from where we were only a few decades ago, but it is an ongoing process. It takes time.

I think you have grasped my ideas perfectly, other than to think I was expecting instant results. I'm not even commenting on where we are or if forgiveness is past due. I'm merely stating that we could one day have the kind of culture that has moved on past these kind of things because the bigots are far and few between and regardless of their number their opinions are weightless to the collective psyche of our culture. That any sign of it is looked at like a person with a tic only without any empathy for them.

And of course to remind people there is plenty of talk about bigotry and residual effects of the past as there should be...however...there is a noticeable lack of conversation about forgiveness among the 'leaders' within our culture because all of them profit from the disparity and memories.

Be they politicians or celebrities there is no gold for them in suggesting the only way forward is to understand there will come a time when the victims have to let it go. Nothing else can set them free. For a white guy to say this invites riotous cries of racist, and political opportunists disingenuous cries of the same. Yet with all the progress we have made the concept should be at the front and not a third rail of discourse.

Thus although we have progressed toward equality in great strides our progress is off track because we have only moved sideways at best toward resolution. That is because of the players who have no genuine interest in the end of the status quo that their house is built upon.

I, for one, have never personally spoken with a black person who held white people, or me personally, accountable for slavery, at this point in time. Some have held the historical reality OF slavery responsible for certain issues that persist. That seems perfectly logical, and as I said, this is a wound which only heals with time. Government can only assist in preventing lingering pockets of racism, sexism, anti-gay sentiment or the like from inflicting pain upon fellow citizens. And, that is a rightful role of government.

Vander pointed out resentment…well, one of the problems associated with government mandated equality is the resentment pendulum swings to the other side, and can start a never ending cycle, sort of like vendetta.

As far as the culture thing…no, there will always be culture, it will just be a more organic culture, where change comes more natural, rather than forced, eliminating much of the backlash resentment.

Example:

Look at aetna and other larger companies now talking about and actually raising the wages of their lowest wage earners, this is coming about because of a new paradigm, and not government intervention.

callmeslick wrote:.... Government can only assist in preventing lingering pockets of racism, sexism, anti-gay sentiment or the like from inflicting pain upon fellow citizens. And, that is a rightful role of government.

No, government is just a construct and tool of people. And people sometimes use the government for things other than 'only getting it right'.
Ferguson for example....

Will Robinson wrote:For a white guy to say this invites riotous cries of racist, and political opportunists disingenuous cries of the same. Yet with all the progress we have made the concept should be at the front and not a third rail of discourse.

It's a third rail because it's discussing forgiveness in the face of the prevalent residual and continuing inequity, which when discussed without great qualification, can easily be seen or distorted as distasteful.

As I'm sure you know, great qualification is absent from our curated national discourse. This is another non-racial factor that slows progress.

Spidey wrote:Vander pointed out resentment…well, one of the problems associated with government mandated equality is the resentment pendulum swings to the other side, and can start a never ending cycle, sort of like vendetta.

I've been discussing equal rights. I don't give much care to the resentment of those opposed to granting equal rights. They're wrong. Affirmative Action, on the other hand, is different. I can understand and sympathize with an opponent, and even if I agree with a certain action, I would advocate for some sort of sunset or reauthorization scheme.