DescentBB

Duper wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:

Diedel wrote:Reading the bible without inspiration (by the Holy Ghost) will confuse you at best.

It's a very complex book, saying a lot of things about the nature of mankind and the nature of God.

@Bettina:

If you see hatred in the bible, it's because of what it says about the nature of mankind.

If you cannot see the love in it, it is because of yourself, not because of the book. And if you chose to hate instead of seeking (that) love, it's your decision. Don't make others responsible for it.

I don't hate the bible. I said it was full of hate. Gods revenge on this and that...Calling me a sinner before I was born, and tons of other stuff. I read it all...and found no comfort, or belief, in its words.

I still live a moral life though, but I got that from my dad.

Bettina

Bet ... God took "revenge" on those who DID NOT DO WHAT HE TOLD THEM. The Bible is pretty clear on this. Everyone is a sinner. Adam brought that into our race when he disobeyed God. You should know this, growing up in the church. It's basic doctrine.

i fail to see your point, given her position.


As Bill Hicks once said:

Believe or Die! ...Thank you, Lord, for all those options

Palzon wrote:i fail to see your point, given her position.


As Bill Hicks once said:

Believe or Die! ...Thank you, Lord, for all those options

I don't expect you too and yes, those are the options and the sarcasim is not unexpected. Read through Deidel's posts for an explanation, But I suspect you aren't really interested in that.

Diedel wrote:God took "revenge" on those who DID NOT DO WHAT HE TOLD THEM.

Actually, with a few exceptions, it was generally a case of God letting us have our own way, which often has nasty results.

Palzon quoting Bill Hicks wrote:Believe or Die! ...Thank you, Lord, for all those options

All depends on your point of view. Let's draw two pictures:

1: A Conquistador with his gun to a native's head, the Conquistador says, "Believe or DIE!"

2: A doctor with a syringe full of vaccine offering it to a resisting public. The doctor says, "Believe or DIE!"

Kilarin

Kilarin wrote:2: A doctor with a syringe full of vaccine offering it to a resisting public. The doctor says, "Believe or DIE!"

I believe she's under the impression that the doctor is the one who released the disease in the first place. If so, there is no real difference between the two.

Bet51987 wrote:

Diedel wrote:Reading the bible without inspiration (by the Holy Ghost) will confuse you at best.

It's a very complex book, saying a lot of things about the nature of mankind and the nature of God.

@Bettina:

If you see hatred in the bible, it's because of what it says about the nature of mankind.

If you cannot see the love in it, it is because of yourself, not because of the book. And if you chose to hate instead of seeking (that) love, it's your decision. Don't make others responsible for it.

I don't hate the bible. I said it was full of hate. Gods revenge on this and that...Calling me a sinner before I was born, and tons of other stuff. I read it all...and found no comfort, or belief, in its words.

I still live a moral life though, but I got that from my dad.

Bettina

If you read my post properly, you will see that I didn't say you hate the bible. I formed a conditional clause regarding a decision to (unspecifically) hate.

Where has your Dad gotten his moral life from, huh?

How much do you really know of the bible? Where does your knowledge come from? How much did you read of it? How much of that did you really understand? The bible is an incredibly deep book full of pictures that need interpretation. I have at times marvelled at the knowledge of gifted bible teachers who drew amazing insights from it.

Your whole sight on the bible is through your personal experience, expectancies and accusations against God.

It looks like you haven't even understood the concept of sin. If you look at the root of this word (at least in my language), sin is something separating something. So if the bible says you're born in sin, it actually says you're born in separation from God. Now are you trying to tell me that this isn't true? Don't, because if I look at your posts and attitude, I cannot believe that.

One more thing about God. Unfortunately, he isn't there in every situation of our life, holding our hand, getting us out of trouble with us taking no harm. He lets us deal with a lot of things ourselves. He is however there to help us through things we cannot cope with - if we truly seek him in this - and he will help us to get over things that have really hurt us.

If you had really understood the Bible, you would have seen that God knows suffering more intimately than every human being, and he knows what every single human being is going through. Yet, he respects our personal freedom of choice, and though he will interfere out of grace at times, he will often just let things happen. And honestly, this is what most ppl have chosen: They don't want God to tell them how to live. Yet they complain he doesn't help them when they get in trouble. What the heck do they expect?

So much however, Bet: You can yell at God and talk with him about what really moves, delights or hurts you, and if you're really into a relationship with him, you will experience his love and comfort, and understand his thoughts and motivation. I can tell you one thing: You can even 'beat' him because there is so much pain and anger in you, and he will understand and embrace you in loving arms until the pain is gone. Or do you think all the adult Christians here have never experienced pain and suffering? It's all about how you deal with it.

Duper wrote:

Palzon wrote:i fail to see your point, given her position.

As Bill Hicks once said:

Believe or Die! ...Thank you, Lord, for all those options

I don't expect you too and yes, those are the options and the sarcasim is not unexpected. Read through Deidel's posts for an explanation, But I suspect you aren't really interested in that.

The sarcasm was technically Bill's

I read Deidel's post, in fact I read the whole thread. So shut yer piehole! One further, I read the bible so I don't have to depend on your interpretation.

The reason I told you I don't see your point is because Bettina clearly understands what religion has to offer and has rejected it for personal reasons. Meanwhile, YOU are the one "casting stones". Mine was a relevant observation in the thread to begin with.

You have a right to your beliefs and I would NEVER criticize your right to hold them or put you down for holding them.

But it's asinine to talk down to her as if her only reason for not accepting jesus is she's too stupid to realllly get it. Acting is she is not realllly paying attention or she would see it your way. Maybe she's thought her own way through pretty good, think of that?

Bettina explained her own personal resistance to religion. She's not trying to get anyone else to renounce their religion. You're condescending moral judgements shouldn't be tolerated. THIS is the kind of thing that should be moderated around here.

Interchange of ideas? Check.
Spririted debate? Check.
Intense Sex? Check.
Burn in Hell? Not here, not ever.

If we're to have a meaningful discussion between different philosophies, the last thing we need is naked proselytization. You should keep your snarky attitude to yourself.

Palzon wrote:The reason I told you I don't see your point is because Bettina clearly understands what religion has to offer and has rejected it for personal reasons. Meanwhile, YOU are the one "casting stones". Mine was a relevant observation in the thread to begin with.

What you obviously don't understand is that being a Christian is not about religion (i.e. following a strict set of rules), but about a relationship. I bet you have heard that before, but you don't seem to understand it.

Palzon wrote:But it's asinine to talk down to her as if her only reason for not accepting jesus is she's too stupid to realllly get it. Acting is she is not realllly paying attention or she would see it your way. Maybe she's thought her own way through pretty good, think of that?

As far as I can see, nobody here did that.

Palzon wrote:If we're to have a meaningful discussion between different philosophies, the last thing we need is naked proselytization. You should keep your snarky attitude to yourself.

So upset about an opinion you don't like?

Palzon wrote:

Duper wrote:

Palzon wrote:i fail to see your point, given her position.

As Bill Hicks once said:

Believe or Die! ...Thank you, Lord, for all those options

I don't expect you too and yes, those are the options and the sarcasim is not unexpected. Read through Deidel's posts for an explanation, But I suspect you aren't really interested in that.

The sarcasm was technically Bill's

I read Deidel's post, in fact I read the whole thread. So shut yer piehole! One further, I read the bible so I don't have to depend on your interpretation.

The reason I told you I don't see your point is because Bettina clearly understands what religion has to offer and has rejected it for personal reasons. Meanwhile, YOU are the one "casting stones". Mine was a relevant observation in the thread to begin with.

You have a right to your beliefs and I would NEVER criticize your right to hold them or put you down for holding them.

But it's asinine to talk down to her as if her only reason for not accepting jesus is she's too stupid to realllly get it. Acting is she is not realllly paying attention or she would see it your way. Maybe she's thought her own way through pretty good, think of that?

Bettina explained her own personal resistance to religion. She's not trying to get anyone else to renounce their religion. You're condescending moral judgements shouldn't be tolerated. THIS is the kind of thing that should be moderated around here.

Interchange of ideas? Check.
Spririted debate? Check.
Intense Sex? Check.
Burn in Hell? Not here, not ever.

If we're to have a meaningful discussion between different philosophies, the last thing we need is naked proselytization. You should keep your snarky attitude to yourself.

Thanks cutie. but I don't want Deidels post moderated. He didn't swear at me or act like a bully, yes it was a little attitude but its ok with me. Deidel, I will answer you but I want to think about what you said first and how it relates to my thinking.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote:Faith... The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will. The body of dogma of a religion. (the trusting part is what killed me)

Are you saying you trusted God and got disappointed so deeply it "killed" you?

You know the story of Joseph, don't you? Take it as parable or true story: He had miserable times in his life, yet mastered them all and became a great man.

Currently, you seem to be just bitter and angry (and hence pretty alive), which is understandable, but not helpful.

Bet51987 wrote:it was a little attitude but its ok with me.

That's how you feel about it, not what I felt when posting. I am looking for the truth, and I have a tendency to be pretty direct, but that's all. I am living with your 'attitude' too, and believe me, I am feeling some there.

"Everything must serve for the good of those who love God."

I know that can be very hard at times, but it's possible.

Bet51987 wrote:

Palzon wrote:

Duper wrote:

Palzon wrote:i fail to see your point, given her position.

As Bill Hicks once said:

Believe or Die! ...Thank you, Lord, for all those options

I don't expect you too and yes, those are the options and the sarcasim is not unexpected. Read through Deidel's posts for an explanation, But I suspect you aren't really interested in that.

The sarcasm was technically Bill's

I read Deidel's post, in fact I read the whole thread. So shut yer piehole! One further, I read the bible so I don't have to depend on your interpretation.

The reason I told you I don't see your point is because Bettina clearly understands what religion has to offer and has rejected it for personal reasons. Meanwhile, YOU are the one "casting stones". Mine was a relevant observation in the thread to begin with.

You have a right to your beliefs and I would NEVER criticize your right to hold them or put you down for holding them.

But it's asinine to talk down to her as if her only reason for not accepting jesus is she's too stupid to realllly get it. Acting is she is not realllly paying attention or she would see it your way. Maybe she's thought her own way through pretty good, think of that?

Bettina explained her own personal resistance to religion. She's not trying to get anyone else to renounce their religion. You're condescending moral judgements shouldn't be tolerated. THIS is the kind of thing that should be moderated around here.

Interchange of ideas? Check.
Spririted debate? Check.
Intense Sex? Check.
Burn in Hell? Not here, not ever.

If we're to have a meaningful discussion between different philosophies, the last thing we need is naked proselytization. You should keep your snarky attitude to yourself.

Thanks cutie. but I don't want Deidels post moderated. He didn't swear at me or act like a bully, yes it was a little attitude but its ok with me. Deidel, I will answer you but I want to think about what you said first and how it relates to my thinking.

Bettina

not Diedel. Duper.

I am soooo glad they have implemented this quotation folding ...

Diedel wrote:I am soooo glad they have implemented this quotation folding

Actually, with a 4 line default and the EXPAND button, it ain't so bad. Has it's advantages. But I wish they could make it so that ONLY the external quote has the expand button and that expanded all of the internal quotes. Can get kinda click happy otherwise...

Kilarin

Never satisfied, huh?

Diedel wrote:Never satisfied, huh?

Heh! Nope. That's why I'm a programmer. I always want to niggle with the details.

Kilarin

Kilarin wrote:

Diedel wrote:Never satisfied, huh?

Heh! Nope. That's why I'm a programmer. I always want to niggle with the details.

Kilarin

I'm a programmer also. Niggling is good for the soul.

Bet51987 wrote:I don't hate the bible. I said it was full of hate. Gods revenge on this and that...Calling me a sinner before I was born, and tons of other stuff. I read it all...and found no comfort, or belief, in its words.
I still live a moral life though, but I got that from my dad.
Bettina

Hi Bettina,

I understand your anger, but in your reading the Bible it seems you have missed a few things. You are a sinner and so am I. Everyone is a sinner. What is a sinner? Everyone may have an opinion, but what does the Bible really say about this? "Sin" had an origin, and it's roots are found in free will.

Free will can be a horrible quality or a joyful quality. It all depends on what you do with it.

Why do people suffer and die? How can a loving God allow wicked things to occur?

God is a living being with a personality. He has standards. He has personal limits (as awful as that may sound to some, it's still true), which he has established for the good of all creatures. God's four main attributes are Love, Power, Justice, and Wisdom. All these qualities balance each other. He does not tell others to do something he himself would not do. He does not have a double standard, one for himself and another for everyone else. God's justice, to be truly righteous, must be the same for everyone, including himself. God's power is held in check by his justice. His justice is determined by his wisdom, and all these are held together by his love.

God has humility: he is always willing to acquiesce to another opinion, if that opinion can be found to be valid. He is willing to allow time to prove that other opinions are better than his own. Which is why the world is in its current condition.

Satan told Eve that God had lied. He also told her God's restrictions were keeping her from becoming like God, that she would be able to set her own limits as to what was good and what was bad. These accusations against God implied that God's direction was flawed and his authority did not demonstrate what was best for all living creatures. Eve was deceived and believed Satan. Adam was not deceived, but agreed to side with Eve (and Satan) and he willingly rejected God's authority. This one act by Adam lead the human race into sin, the state of imperfection and alienation from God.

How a loving father confronts a rebellious child will be determined by two things: the age of the child, and the severity of the child's actions. If the child is old enough, the father may be forced kick the child out of his house to preserve peace for everyone else.

Satan was God's child. A very powerful creature who had held a position of great authority within God's kingdom – a kingdom inhabited by millions of angels. His accusations could not be ignored. His name, Satan, means resister, his title Devil, means slanderer.

For God's justice to be righteous, God must allow Satan time to prove his accusations. So instead of removing the rebels immediately, God allowed them time to prove themselves. Because of this, God has removed himself from the world, and is letting the results of Satan's efforts proclaim who is truly the righteous one. Because Adam willfully sided with Satan we are living the consequences, a world set apart from God, populated with imperfect, dying humans, ruled by the rebellious and slanderous Satan. This condition will continue until every possible option has been tried by Satan to achieve success without God's influence.

When all options have failed, then God will be justified. The slander upon his name will be removed and he will permanently kick out all rebels from his kingdom to restore peace. This is the main theme of the Bible: The sanctification of God's name. Jesus taught his followers to pray first for the sanctification of God's name before anything else. (“Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.”)

Our redemption is an act of mercy on God's part; an undeserved kindness for the offspring of the rebel Adam, who, because of his actions, passed on to his children nothing but death and suffering. But God will be faithful, and at the appointed time, will wipe out every tear from our eyes, and death will be no more.

Diedel,

You don't have to be a Christian to be like Joseph. You man up, swallow your pride, and deal with life everyday because nobody is going to do it for you. You have to get up everyday and make decisions, so man up, don't wait for God to show up and do it, because I'm willing to bet you'll be waiting a long time.

Are you going to tell me you'd \"man up\" and swallow what Joseph had to suffer?

I doubt you'd be such a hero yourself, and many other ppl wouldn't be either (including me).

Or don't you even know what he suffered?

You seem to have missed however that this wasn't the point. The point was that there are people who suffer much more than Bettina did, yet they go through it with God, instead of blaming him for it, and even get greatly rewarded.

So actually you are supporting my point of view here. Thank you.

The last time I was actually in some sort of learning atmosphere at a church was when I was a kid, so it's been a little while. But, in my opinion, whatever is was Joseph \"had\" to suffer, it's a fantasy story to me. I can make anyone sound like a hero if all I'm doing is using a pen and paper. YOU have to man up for what you do in life, you can believe in some spirit enveloping you and telling you what to do is right, and that's fine. But he's not there, you make the decisions you make, and whatever you do, you do.

You say nobody suffered like Joseph? Please, I know 275 million people that have suffered greatly in the last 6 years by a bible thumper