Mouselook - An Objective Look

[Bilco1]

Ever since I played Descent online, dating back to D2 I had used a joystick. I played D3 on PXO and would set up lans I played with my dad and younger brother. As I would set up the server I always noticed a small checkbox to enable//disable mouselook. Now back then I didn't care, I was using a joystick after all and the slightest thought of attempting to play descent with a mouse and keyboard seemed impossible with 360DOF. All I remember is that ‘mouselookers’ were frowned upon.

After playing D3 on PXO for a good 16 months or so I eventually got into playing other FPS like Quake 3. The whole \"WTF i hit that guy on my screen and horray invisible napalm\" stuff started to become a real turnoff after I got a taste of the comprehensive control configs of other games - I could actually bind sensitivities with certain weapons while in D3, heck, I couldn't even bind weapons to a key without going through the hassle of getting a third party program. And all the while in the FPS I had lower pings, players didn’t warp around and I was actually able to hit the guy where he appeared on my screen, not having to lead shots to where he would be with server delay.

Well after the years past I kept playing those FPSs, no 360DOF games really ever came out, and I found myself installing D3 on a rainy day to procrastinate the studies for my finals. My old MS Sidewinder Pro had long died so I was forced to use a mouse. I soon found out trying to tweak D3 for a mouse was abysmal. The default sensitivity was way too high, eventually I had to repeatedly exit and reopen D3 to tweak the mouse sensitivity in the command line. Eventually got a somewhat tolerable sensitivity and aiming, much less maneuvering on the keyboard was a pretty arduous task. The way the mouse worked just didn’t seem to be in step with every other shooter out there.

I soon found out after playing online using my mouse left me with a disadvantage. I couldn’t configure my mouse to be sensitive enough to be able to turn without making it necessary to pick the mouse up and place it back after moving it several times. Then when I did jack the sensitivity up so I could turn reasonably it became ridiculously hard to aim as it was too sensitive. Now the poor support for sensitivity configuration was turning me away from the game again.

Despite this frustration, including the whole need to have a joystick emulator just to use the fusion and vauss correctly, I decided to set up a lan with my dad and bro when I got on summer break from college like we did back in the old days. As I was setting up the server I noticed the check box for mouselook and decided to do some testing with it. After a small amount of time tweaking the sensitivities I was able to get some amazing results from my mouse. I was actually able to aim very well and turn the ship decently. My mouse was actually working, well, like a mouse, at least like one in other games.

Now here I am, wondering why mouselook is enabled on hardly any servers. Some say ‘it gives to much of an advantage,’ im assuming the advantage is aiming over a joystick user. This might be true as mlook enables you to quickly snap your aim on target in the middle of a close combat dogfight, but there are drawbacks to the mouse/kb combo as well. Though mouse with mlook is good at snapping your aim on targets in close proximity, aiming at targets long range is a bit of a task. Another downfall of the mouse is that you lose a lot of mobility having to rely more on the keyboard to tricorder than you would with a joy/kb combo. What is your stance on mlook? Have you actually tried it and do you agree it should be disabled and frowned upon as much as it is?

[Testiculese]

It's disallowed because it allows the player to turn 180 in an instant, breaking the classical physics of the ship.

If you want to use a mouse, you need to incorporate turning keys on the keyboard. I use 12 keys to move, and my mouse sensitivity is .20 x and .40 y. I only use the mouse to aim, if I need to turn around, I use the keyboard, moving the mouse a little just to supplement it. I can turn just as fast as any joystick player.

[Lothar]

It's disallowed because it allows the player to turn 180 in an instant

Exactly. It's a cheat that never should've been included in D3 multi.

Many of the best D3 players are mousers who don't use mouselook.

[Foil]

It's disallowed because it allows the player to turn 180 in an instant, breaking the classical physics of the ship.

x3!!

Mouselook also breaks the flow of D3 multiplayer games. When a player can "instant-whip-around" to fight, it takes away from what makes the Descent experience unique - the passes, the turns, the use of angles. Mouselook makes Descent just like almost any other shooter out there; but that's not what Descent was ever meant to be.

I personally don't allow mouselook on my servers for this very reason. Plus, I watch for users who abuse the Mac-mouselook bug (where Mac players can have mouselook on even if the server has it disabled).

[MD-2389]

It's disallowed because it allows the player to turn 180 in an instant

Exactly. It's a cheat that never should've been included in D3 multi.

Anyone that remembers the Spaceorb 360 will agree with this....

[Duper]

lo1.. those were funny to watch. Most couldn't control them anyways.

[Munk]

Some say ‘it gives to much of an advantage,’ im assuming the advantage is aiming over a joystick user.

The problem with mouselook is not aiming, but turning.
In principle you can aim with a joystick as good as with a mouse. But turning is capped due to the limited range of joystick motion in contrast to the unlimited range of mouse movement.
This is why mouselook will give you way an advantage.

[Diedel]

Everybody who has posted here so far has overlooked a few things (or even posted them indirectly, yet ignored them). I reckon that is because most or all have never tried to play with mouselook.

• Almost all top Descent players (1/2/3) are not mousers. The mousers in that league are far and few between.
• Turning mouselook on drastically reduces your aim because of the increased sensitivity of the mouse. That speaks volumes about how much harder it is to master Descent with the mouse than with the joystick. The mouse already is harder to use except for a few exceptional talents! Does that make using a joystick a cheat? Hey, it's an input device with superior capabilities compared to a mouse!
• You may be able to combine keyboard and mouse for turning and aiming, but personally I wouldn't know how to handle so many keys with one hand (one hand for the mouse, the other for the keyboard, and you need three fingers for tri-chording, plus an extra one for turning ... which one should that be? You may be able to learn to use the small finger, but ...).
• The joystick has a big advantage over the mouse, and that is that you can turn continuously. During prolongued dog fights you will very often have to lift your mouse from the table and put it to the side to be able to continue to turn - something that will break your neck against a stick player, and is very prone to making the ship lose the desired and necessary orientation. There is no smooth maneuvering with the mouse. As far as spaceorbs go, everything that has to be said about them has been said: Who did ever master it? I have had one, and using it in Descent was a PITA.

Honestly, imvho most of the people who condemn mouselook don't even know what they are talking about, not in practise. You claim it gives too much of an advantage, but you do not and cannot even know! Personally, even with mouselook on I don't stand a shadow of a chance against a good stick player, and I bet even if top-notch mousers would be using mouselook, the battlefield wouldn't change a bit. The logical conclusion is that mouselook basically is for the average or sub-par mouser who has trouble maneuvering and is no threat in multiplayer games anyway, mouselook or not, but would probably have a little more fun when playing against the big boys.

There had been a discussion like that before, and I had been called a cheater and an a*hole for allowing it in D2X-XL even though it is fully host controlled and thus cannot easily be \"abused\", and I have come to believe that most Descent players do not have a half-way objective and well founded stance on this issue at all. Their belly screams \"NO!\", and that's what they act out. I have good news for all you stick and long time Descent multiplayer gamers: Mouselook is no danger for you. You will still rule the battlefield. In that light, this whole fuss about mouselook is absolutely pointless. The real reason many people, and particularly stick users, are so upset about mouselook is a very outrageous one: Actually it is them who are having an advantage, and they want to keep it! They don't want a level playing field - they want to have an advantage.

Another point of view on mouselook is the following: If all participants in a multiplayer game agree on allowing it, why not? I have the dire impression that some people on the DescentBB believe that it is up to them to judge what is allowed in Descent and what is not, and that everybody else has to ask them for their permission if they want to change or add something in Descent. I have bad news for these people: You neither own Descent, nor the Descent community. You can issue your opinion and discuss it, but that's it, folks. You have no right to control others, as much as you would like to, and you definitely won't control what I am doing with D2X-XL, if I may add that.

Foil, what is more important in Descent multiplayer games: Levelling the ground for all participants, or preserving \"the true spirit of the game?\" In other words: Is it about fun for everybody, or about your personal satisfaction by some ethereal principle being fulfilled?

And now, if you still dare to argue with me about it, go and play Descent 2 or 3 with a mouse and mouselook on for a good while, until you really know what you are talking about, and do not just judge from hear-say.

The bottom line is: Does mouselook hurt actual gameplay, or does it not? I say no, and I'd say I am having far better grounds for my judgement than most people resenting it.

[Foil]

D, I'm sorry, but you're wrong on a number of points here.

Everybody who has posted here so far has overlooked a few things (or even posted them indirectly, yet ignored them). I reckon that is because most or all have never tried to play with mouselook.

Wrong. I've played with mouselook, and more importantly, against players with mouselook on. I know what affect it has on the game, from personal experience.

Almost all top Descent players (1/2/3) are not mousers. The mousers in that league are far and few between.

Wrong. I could name ten current top-tier players who are mousers, off the top of my head (to avoid derailing the topic, I won't). In fact, the best player I've ever faced is a mouser.

Trust me, there are players who you would never even guess are mousers, because they are so good with their control setup.

Turning mouselook on drastically reduces your aim because of the increased sensitivity of the mouse.

Wrong again. It would be true if mouse sensitivity was not adjustable, but mousers can easily compensate by adjusting their mouse sensitivity.

Joysticks have the same issue of turn rate vs. sensitivity that mice do. It's a balance, that's why experienced players are often adjusting their sensitivity settings... mouselook breaks that balance.

That speaks volumes about how much harder it is to master Descent with the mouse than with the joystick. The mouse already is harder to use except for a few exceptional talents! Does that make using a joystick a cheat? Hey, it's an input device with superior capabilities compared to a mouse!

Wrong, yet again. A mouse is not inferior to a joystick, it's different. Joysticks have some advantages, but mice also have advantages (more on this below).

You may be able to combine keyboard and mouse for turning and aiming, but personally I wouldn't know how to handle so many keys...

Ever played WhollyCow^BoTS^ or Testi? Just because you can't do something doesn't make it impossible.

The joystick has a big advantage over the mouse, and that is that you can turn continuously....
There is no smooth maneuvering with the mouse.

Wrong and wrong.

You said joystick-type controls have the advantage of continuous turning... however, this is also a disadvantage, because joysticks cannot even come close to matching the speed of direction-changes that mice have. Changing direction in a joystick requires a much larger and time-consuming movement than changing direction with a mouse. Top-tier players will tell you that this is at least as important as continuous turning.

Oh, and another note: turning continuously or flying "smoothly" will get you killed against even a moderate player.

Joysticks have the following advantages:
- Continuous turns
- Extra controls

Mice (without mouselook) have the following advantages:
- Accuracy of aim
- Much faster directional/aim changes

So, giving mouselook doesn't "even the field" for mousers, it gives them a huge advantage!

[Cont'd below, couldn't post anything longer because of the SQL DEBUG error.]

[Foil]

Honestly, imvho most of the people who condemn mouselook don't even know what they are talking about, not in practise...
You claim it gives too much of an advantage, but you do not and cannot even know!

Let's see. Lothar, Testi, Munk... you're seriously saying they don't know what they're talking about?

Heck, you're saying that *I* don't know what I'm talking about, and I'd venture to say that I'm a much more active multiplayer pilot than you.

...I bet even if top-notch mousers would be using mouselook, the battlefield wouldn't change a bit...
...mouselook basically is for the average or sub-par mouser who has trouble maneuvering and is no threat in multiplayer games anyway...

Wrong again. If you had ever played in a game where a talented mouser had mouselook available, you would know why it makes such a huge difference. It imbalances the playing field more than the Tri-Fusion.

If you still don't understand, here's the main point:

Mouselook completely breaks the model of ship movement. It gives some players the ability to do something that others can't. If that's not the definition of "unfair advantage", I don't know what is.

...I have come to believe that most Descent players do not have a half-way objective and well founded stance on this issue at all.

No, I think you'll find that the experienced Descenters have a very well-thought-out stance on this issue, for the reason in bold above. Heck, just look at the results in this poll. So far, yours is the ONLY vote supporting mouselook as "always okay".

Another point of view on mouselook is the following: If all participants in a multiplayer game agree on allowing it, why not?

If everyone agrees to it, fine. I'll even host one of my servers that way if there is a request for it.

But as the results of the poll clearly show, the experienced pilots here aren't going to agree to it.

Foil, what is more important in Descent multiplayer games: Levelling the ground for all participants, or preserving "the true spirit of the game?"

We preserve "the true spirit of the game" by levelling the playing field.

Mouselook un-levels and imbalances the field, and completely breaks the feel of maneuvering a winged ship. It goes directly against "the true spirit of the game".

And now, if you still dare to argue with me about it, go and play Descent 2 or 3 with a mouse and mouselook on for a good while, until you really know what you are talking about, and do not just judge from hear-say.

I have. I'm currently a joystick player, but I've played keyboard-only, I've played joystick-only, and I've played mouse (with and without mouselook). I know what I'm talking about.

The bottom line is: Does mouselook hurt actual gameplay, or does it not? I say no...

And nearly everyone else who has responded in this thread says, "Yes".


-------

If you still want to debate this, let's test it scientifically. You vs. me, we'll play a few 1v1 games, using different controls (joystick, mouse, mouselook), and analyze the results.

[Lothar]

You claim it gives too much of an advantage

No, we don't. We claim that it gives a particular advantage by breaking game physics. I don't think I've ever heard anybody claim that it makes up for certain disadvantages, only that it allows some players to ignore the game's laws of physics.

A large part of your post was about the difference between mouse and joystick. Nobody here has issue with mouse. Nobody cried "hax" when Birdseye made the final 4 in the 50K tourney on mouse, or when he won fifty-some straight IDL games on mouse. Because the normal mouse controls still obey the game laws of physics. Mouselook and spaceorb do not. Doesn't mean you'll be a better player using either of those hax, but it does mean they shouldn't be allowed in general.

Personally, even with mouselook on I don't stand a shadow of a chance against a good stick player

Even with my 3D pro I don't stand a shadow of a chance against top stick players... or top mousers. That's not a question of controllers, that's a question of Descent skill.

mouselook basically is for the average or sub-par mouser who has trouble maneuvering and is no threat in multiplayer games anyway, mouselook or not, but would probably have a little more fun when playing against the big boys.

The same could be said for most hacks. They're for the average or sub-par player who wants to "hang with the big boys". Or, occasionally, for the above-average player who wants to dominate the average players.

If all participants in a multiplayer game agree on allowing it, why not?

Again, same argument applies to any hack. If everyone wants to play with speed hacks, so long as they all agree, why not? If everyone wants to play with 500 shields, why not? Doesn't mean we as a community should start telling people "speed hacks are fine".

Recognize that it's a hack and that it breaks game physics. If you still want to play with it, and you can find people who agree to play under those rules, go for it. But don't get upset at the rest of the community for not accepting a hack you think is OK.

[Testiculese]

[edit] I wasted some time typing as Foil already hit most of what I typed</skimmer>[/edit]

I have to refute you on every point you make, Diedel.

* Almost all top Descent players (1/2/3) are not mousers. The mousers in that league are far and few between.

Of the top 20 pilots of D3's most popular time, 10 were mousers.

* Turning mouselook on drastically reduces your aim because of the increased sensitivity of the mouse. That speaks volumes about how much harder it is to master Descent with the mouse than with the joystick. The mouse already is harder to use except for a few exceptional talents! Does that make using a joystick a cheat? Hey, it's an input device with superior capabilities compared to a mouse!

It does make your aim suffer initially, but you can get used to it. You can lower mouselook to the point of stability. I've seen people's UT config where they're practically on max sensitivity. Secondly, The 'superior capabilities' do not break the physics engine of the game. Mousers and stickers are both bound to it. Mouselookers are not. Therein lies the cheating aspect.

* You may be able to combine keyboard and mouse for turning and aiming, but personally I wouldn't know how to handle so many keys with one hand (one hand for the mouse, the other for the keyboard, and you need three fingers for tri-chording, plus an extra one for turning ... which one should that be? You may be able to learn to use the small finger, but ...).

I use 12 keys on the keyboard, all 5 fingers.

* The joystick has a big advantage over the mouse, and that is that you can turn continuously. During prolongued dog fights you will very often have to lift your mouse from the table and put it to the side to be able to continue to turn - something that will break your neck against a stick player, and is very prone to making the ship lose the desired and necessary orientation. There is no smooth maneuvering with the mouse. As far as spaceorbs go, everything that has to be said about them has been said: Who did ever master it? I have had one, and using it in Descent was a PITA.

Joystick does not have an advantage over the mouse because I can turn continuously as well. I rarely if ever lift my mouse from the pad when fighting.

If you think the mouse isn't smooth moving, you've never seen me fly (2 years ago.. ). (Foil, I think you misread his idea of smooth flying and turning)

Suncho used the spaceorb for a bit. Dunno how well he did with it, though.

[zico]

Well...
Normal movement allows to turn around in XX seconds. Mouselook allows to do that faster. In other games it's called speedhack.

[Diedel]

OMG - nobody flamed me!?

Foil,

how many of the people here, except Testi, are regular mouse players, having also extensively tried mouselook? That's what I was referring to. If Lothar or Munk aren't mousers, or never really have tried mouselook, they don't really know what they are talking about here.

Stick players also can do something mousers can't: Turn continuously, and with ease. Imo that voids your argument.

There have been discussions about mouselook before, and funny enough most mouselook resenters seem to be stick players.

If you decrease mouse sensitivity to compensate for the increased sensitivity due to mouselook being enabled, what is the result? You are countering the effect mouselook has, and that means no more instant 180 degree turns.

You can name 10 top-notch mousers. How many of them are still active? And more important: How many top notch stick players are there? I didn't say there are no top-notch mousers, I said there are few. Isn't it a fact that the majority of online Descent players are using joysticks?

I have been playing with mouselook for a long time (singleplayer and coop, I just didn't have time for anarchy except for some d2x-xl debug sessions), and I have come to play without because the aim just gets too bad - particularly with my supersensitive new mouse, which finally allows turning with minimal movement, so I don't have to lift it around all the time. I do at least know what I am talking about from my own experience.

Testi,

cheating has nothing to do with breaking engine limits. It only has to do with gaining an advantage by doing so. I have played with mouselook both on D3 and D2X-XL. I never could compensate for the advantages stick players have: Move the stick a little and just keep it: Turn, turn, turn. Aim is no problem for good stick players.

I just wonder whether the top-notch D3 mousers were so good using mouselook, or not. Actually both ways would support me: If not, I doubt mouselook would have given them anything, which means it doesn't hurt. They were playing at the limits anyway. If yes, they wouldn't have been able to compete without it, which means it just levels the field.

Oops, I thought you use 5 keys, all 12 fingers, you alien freak ... j/k ... I can use three, and I would need to learn to use the thumb for horizontal turning, but I wouldn't know how to turn vertically. Problems you don't have with a stick (or two).

I had a SpaceOrb too once. I never managed to decently control the ship with it. The axes interfered to easily, and the ball had some stiff resistance.

What would convince me that mousers are not at a disadvantage would be some statistics including as many online players starting at average skill, and see that there is an even distribution between mousers and non-mousers. Another real test would be to pit top-notch mousers with mouselook against top-notch stick players. If the mousers start to rule, mouselook would clearly be an unfair advantage. If not, it would at least not hurt anybody.

Imo, the entire 'physics breaking' and 'feel of winged ship' arguing is somewhat out of whack. A Pyro doesn't really have a winged ships physics. It has a mixture of inert physics and atmospherical friction. I don't need to tell you what happens with a winged ship stopping to move mid air. What it might break is the feel of flying an inert vessel, ok. Anyway, the game is about gameplay in the first place, not about physics, if you know what I mean.

[Testiculese]

With all the missiles that people put into levels, I don't think aiming has any relevance anymore

You can turn just fine with mouse. Turning on the Y axis is a little difficult, but I can use L/R turn with bank to point up/down, so it doesn't bother me. I could track feenis on AB no problem, they were never able to get behind me. I had a better mouse then, though.

But a big point of the game IS the physics. The playability of the game is defined by the physics. I think that is a big part of the \"Get it out of there\" sentiment. When I bought this game in '95, I knew it was something special the first time I played. The way it played, the way it felt to play, etc...years later when people who feel like this see the mouselook and the potential marginalization of the way the game was designed, it gets under their skin.

I don't recall anymore, it's been 10 years, but with mouselook on, I thought I could drop the sensitivity enough to be stable and still make 180 turns. Wasn't worth it, tho'. Annoying is all it is. Felt like a groundpounder.

Just for the record, if mouselook is server-based, I could care less if it's there. I only wonder why you bothered to put it in at all.

[Diedel]

I put it in because people had asked me to, and my motto is that people can have what they want in D2X-XL as long as I think it's halfway reasonable and feasible.

When I found out that it's such a controversial feature, I made it server controlled and made sure it was off when the game host wasn't even using D2X-XL, to make sure there weren't some players who could do more than the game host.

But if people want to use mouselook, why not? I am not the one to deny it to them. It's their business to find multiplayer settings everybody can agree with. I am not very much into controlling people.

I never tried to tune mouse sens down in D2X-XL so much that I still had proper aim with mouselook on. With my new mouse, I just don't need it anymore. It's 1000 dpi laser mouse (Razer something) with a super slick anodized mouse pad (mouse moves like on soap). I can turn w/o mouselook and still keep the mouse almost on one spot.

Before that I was completely lost particularly in D3 w/o mouselook. I am so much worse than the usual bunch of suspects there anyway. If you are too bad you don't even have a chance to learn something anymore: Meet another player, bam bam bam, you're dead, wondering how the heck he just did that. I must admit that I did so much D2X-XL coding and bug fixing that I had as good as no time to play Descent. And after play testing the same single player mission for the 20th time, I couldn't even see singleplayer anymore. (Get D2X-XL and Boiling Point and play it, if you haven't already - you'll be amazed!)

Sad things is that although I put so many things into D2X-XL and went so great lengths to please really every online Descent player, making everyting host controlled, adding retro modes, putting in a competition mode and extra game info, people still hate D2X-XL and keep telling it would cheat or be a hack, which is pure rubbish. I can tell you, D2 multiplayer with smoke and a few neat new lighting effects is almost a new game!

[Lothar]

My wife is a mouser. We've talked about it enough, and I've watched her play enough, that I think I'm qualified to respond. (She also thinks mouselook is lame, BTW.)

I put it in because people had asked me to.... I made it server controlled... if people want to use mouselook, why not?

Fair enough. If people want to use mouselook, and everyone in game agrees, let them. Same goes for speed hacks, glowing ship skins, modified weapons, and so on.

The community as a whole doesn't want mouselook active in games, because the community as a whole views "breaking engine limits" as cheating. The community as a whole views the ship's maximum turning speed as a key limitation on the game that people shouldn't be able to circumvent just by using a particular controller. But if you have a group that considers it OK, hey, they can play that way.

I just wonder whether the top-notch D3 mousers were so good using mouselook, or not.

Mouselook wasn't enabled in the servers they were playing in, for the most part.

If it had been enabled and people didn't use it because it didn't help them, you'd have a point. but the fact is, the server ops generally agreed that mouselook was a hax, so the mouse players had to play without it if they wanted to be involved in most games.

There were plenty of good mousers WITHOUT mouselook. Giving them mouselook would likely make them even better, but most of the mousers I know would refuse to use it because they think it's hax too.

[Foil]

Stick players also can do something mousers can't: Turn continuously, and with ease. Imo that voids your argument.

No, it doesn't. Joysticks and mice have differences, but they both work within the same design bounds of ship movement. Mouselook breaks those bounds, but only for certain players!

Plus, as I said before, that continuous turning also comes with the disadvantage of slower direction/aim changes. You're not "compensating for joystick superiority" by allowing mouselook, because there is no such superiority.

There have been discussions about mouselook before, and funny enough most mouselook resenters seem to be stick players.

No, most people who don't want mouselook are those who want Descent to be played the way it was meant to, not groundpounder-style.

cheating has nothing to do with breaking engine limits. It only has to do with gaining an advantage by doing so.

Exactly. So, since mouselook gives an "outside game limits" advantage, it fits the definition.

...I never could compensate for the advantages stick players have...

Apparently you're not using the advantages of your mouse, then. (Yes, I said "advantages".)

When you're playing mouse against a stick player who is trying to out-turn you, you're not at a disadvantage.

In fact, because the stick player is turning hard, you have the advantage! If you simply change direction, it will take him considerably longer to follow.

This is why mousers are so dangerous in those quick-dodge fusion battles, and why I often get killed while trying to "get the angle" on a good mouser.

I doubt mouselook would have given them anything, which means it doesn't hurt. They were playing at the limits anyway.

If a player is "playing at the limits", and then you take those limits away, what do you think happens?

What would convince me that mousers are not at a disadvantage would be some statistics including as many online players starting at average skill, and see that there is an even distribution between mousers and non-mousers.

You'd have to work too hard to get valid data in a study like that. That's why I suggested you and I play some games; maybe do a "double-blind" scenario where we don't know what controls the other is using until afterward.

Imo, the entire 'physics breaking' and 'feel of winged ship' arguing is somewhat out of whack.
...
Anyway, the game is about gameplay in the first place, not about physics, if you know what I mean.

No, not "physics" as in actual science (fluid dynamics, wings, etc.); we all know Descent isn't a scientifically-accurate game. We're talking about "physics" as in game movement.

Mouselook is a groundpounder style of aim. It's significantly different from the way Descent movement was designed from the very beginning.

Besides the fact that it gives an unfair (as in "some get it, others don't") advantage... it's just not true to the Descent-style flight that most of us know and love.

[Diedel]

Foil,

you think mouselook would be an advantage for mousers, I don't. We both have our theories about it, but no real proof. I admit I probably made some wrong assumptions (or didn't know what I was talking about ) about how good a mouser can get, and how many got really good, but I still don't believe mouselook makes a difference. Btw, not playing groundpounder style is a personal thing - it shouldn't affect your game experience if someone else does (provided he doesn't get an advantage from it). So that's not a real argument. And then Descent gameplay by far is not just the limited turn speed. It is much, much more, and you know that if you give it just a second's thought.

I am by no means a measuring rod for Descent multiplayer gaming - you would beat me single handedly and blindfolded using whatever controller you chose.

Lothar,

there is no replacement for firsthand experience except more firsthand experience. And if your wife never really tried mouselook, she cannot really judge it either, sorry.

[Lothar]

there is no replacement for firsthand experience except more firsthand experience. And if your wife never really tried mouselook, she cannot really judge it either, sorry.

We can both judge it on very simple grounds: It breaks game physics.

I bring up my wife as a mouser simply to demonstrate that mouse isn't an inferior controller. There have been very solid mouse players on all levels throughout the years. Mouse isn't some lesser controller that needs to go outside the game physics just to compete; it's fine operating 100% within game physics.

[Foil]

Btw, not playing groundpounder style is a personal thing - it shouldn't affect your game experience if someone else does (provided he doesn't get an advantage from it).

When an opposing player does a "180-degree-nearly-instant-whip-around" in a Descent game, it certainly affects my game experience.

[Diedel]

Foil,

can't you understand, or can't you read? It doesn't change anything about your \"flying experience\", your \"feeling of flying\" if someone else doesn't. Didn't I write \"as long as it doesn't give him an advantage\"?

You know what I don't like? If people pretend they are dumber than they are. Stop doing that.

[Lothar]

can't you understand, or can't you read?

You've gone this far without being flamed. There's a reason for it. Don't start trying to provoke people now.

It doesn't change anything about your "flying experience", your "feeling of flying"....

It does change your flight experience if the people you're fighting can turn 180 degrees instantly. It reduces the power of "getting the right angle" to attack from, among other things.

[Foil]

It doesn't change anything about your "flying experience", your "feeling of flying"....

It does change your flight experience if the people you're fighting can turn 180 degrees instantly. It reduces the power of "getting the right angle" to attack from, among other things.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

Someone else flying mouselook may not affect my own flying movements... but (using your terminology) it certainly affects my game experience.

Plus, as Lothar alluded to, it completely destroys the tumbling dogfights that make Descent unique.

[Behemoth]

Diedel, you say you play on mouselook (or have)
How many games have you played with the field full of mouselook players?

Would you say it's the same game physics as a game with regular controllers?

As for me, i'd stick with flight-sim if for nothing more than better pinpoint-aim capability.

[Krom]

I have flown first hand against people who were exploiting the Mac mouselook bug, it DOES have an impact and makes a difference in the quality of play. In BI3 for instance, you kind of assume if you are staring at the afterburners of a player they can't shoot you right away, since it normally requires TIME for a ship to turn and face you to fire at you. When a player exploits mouselook, this taken for granted advantage is lost, and they can fire at you instantly no matter which direction you approach from. I've seen it, I've had it happen to me, I know exactly what it means. If you ask me, it is CHEATING, it violates the basic rules of playing, it upsets the game balance.

Did it make that huge of a difference, not really, the player in question was running maybe 5-7% higher efficiency with mouselook then they would have been without it, but it DOES make a difference. There were some situations where I could have blind-sided the player, but was unable to because it is impossible to \"get behind\" a mouselook player that can spin 180 or even 900 degrees instantly if they want to. I might have been able to fully exploit those situations if that player hadn't been using mouselook, or they might have still gotten away or killed me instantly with trifusion anyway, but I didn't have that chance because they were able to instantly fire trifusion backwards and kill me.

[Diedel]

Behemoth,

Apart from turning, yes.

But my main focus is the gameplay aspect, not the physics.

Geez, I am explaining the same stuff for the 3rd time now.

Maybe I couldn't really judge mouselook because I am neither a good enough mouser myself, nor had any really good mouser ever bothered explaining to me how to perfectly use a mouse in Descent. I am definitely smarter now. For me mouselook never was a means to turn around 180 degrees at a pursuer and wipe him off the sky with a full broadside. I was glad I could turn good enough with it to have a chance against other players. I got my behind handed to me most of the time anyway.

Anyway, I exposed my point of view, and if I hadn't, I wouldn't have had heard a lot of good arguments.

Last time it had been me who had brought up this subject because I was looking for a reasonable discussion, but instead of presenting good reasoning I was flamed and cursed by quite a few people who don't like mouselook, and flaming me isn't exactly a way to get me to do anything (apart from eventually striking back).

[Behemoth]

Krom's post sums up my opinion on mouselook.

[Duper]

My wife is a mouser.

...Nuff sed! o_0 ..ow ow ow ow ow ow.....

[KoolBear]

Diedel,

Is this setting \"OFF\" by default?
and...
Can you hard code a ML (mouselook) or something into the multi-player game name that shows up on the tracker?

Example...

KoolBear's Game
vs
ML-KoolBear's Game

Something like that should put an end to anyone's concern's I think it wonderful that it is an option. There might be a group of mousers that LAN togther and they would love it!

my 2 cents on the subject.

KB

[Aus-RED-5]

Diedel,

Is this setting "OFF" by default?

It is OFF by default so that people who don't change setting won't end up with it on.

and...
Can you hard code a ML (mouselook) or something into the multi-player game name that shows up on the tracker?

Example...

KoolBear's Game
vs
ML-KoolBear's Game

Something like that should put an end to anyone's concern's I think it wonderful that it is an option. There might be a group of mousers that LAN togther and they would love it!

my 2 cents on the subject.

KB

This would be better in the Host's settings info window ("I" key in MP list).
Most people rename the description of the game anyways. In the Host's settings info window. The host can't edit that.

[Diedel]

D2X-XL already does everything you want and more. It prints all info about enabled extensions in the netgame information dialog:



I have also added a "competition" mode where you don't have to go click yourself through all the extra options you want and don't want, but which offers a well defined set of d2x-xl options that are enabled, while the rest is just off. See the worklog on www.descent2.de for details.

If people would bother to read my worklog, which I put significant effort in, they would start to see that (a) I am trying to support the multiplayer community very well, and (b) that they have little, if at all reason to complain.

Krom's post sums up my opinion on mouselook.

Krom has answered exactly on what was the real issue with mouselook for me.

Lothar, Foil,

your "flight feeling" has to do with how the sight changes when you move the ship, how it banks, etc. Bicycle riding has it's special "physics" in that sense, too. If you and your wives/friends are both riding a bicycle, and she gets off, does it change what you yourselves physically feel when riding your bikes? Not at all, you're still sitting on it, you're still moving the same way. Ofc they are walking, but that doesn't change you riding your bike.

[DigiJo]

i dont like mouselook as well, for me if mouselook is enabled descent doesnt feel like \"descent\" anymore, this strange combination of an flightsim-rollercoaster-actionshooter that makes descent so fun and unique is gone.
in the case of mp-competition.. loooong time ago i joined a vv server that had mouselook enabled wich i didnt know, i chased a flagrunner and suddenly was dead. first i thought a teammate of the flagrunner got me from behind or whatever, then i saw that the flagrunner turned 180 and shot me down with md before even the serverpakets reached my computer. 1 second i chase a flagrunner and aim carefully between his trusters for the stopsign i want to send him out of my guns, next second i am dead and i watch his front, his md still smoking?
no sir, thank you very much. if i want to play quake i join a quake game.

[Diedel]

That must have been a dang good player anyway. I mean, notice you're at his tail, pre-charge MD, whip around while keeping precise aim, and hitting you ... you were already pretty damaged if he managed to kill you, weren't you?

[WhollyCow]

Krom and Testi know what they're talking about.

Skilled FPS players can control, with precision, an almost arbitrarily sensitive mouse. Mouselook may not be a big deal for everyone who uses it, but there will be some players who can turn it into a huge advantage.

We talk much about the learning curve of trichording and less about the learning curve of turning. It's faster to turn around using two axes (say, left and up) than just one. Good players (of any controller preference) turn using complex motions. If the turning speed were not capped, there would be no need for complex turns... just fast reflexes and good mouse skills. That's dumbing the game down. No fun.

(And after all... I worked /hard/ to learn to fly with 12 keys for 5 fingers! )

[Foil]

Lothar, Foil,

your "flight feeling" has to do with how the sight changes when you move the ship, how it banks, etc. Bicycle riding has it's special "physics" in that sense, too. If you and your wives/friends are both riding a bicycle, and she gets off, does it change what you yourselves physically feel when riding your bikes? Not at all, you're still sitting on it, you're still moving the same way. Ofc they are walking, but that doesn't change you riding your bike.

If I'm playing joystick and they're playing with a mouse, you're correct that mouselook doesn't affect my flight. However, the fact that they're mouselooking *definitely* affects my gameplay. (I.e. what Krom referred to, it changes the nature of the moves and dogfights.)

[Edit: In your analogy, I may still be on a bike, but the fact that they are now walking affects my ability to keep up, especially if they start running and changing directions quickly.]

[Duper]

Foil is quite right.

I was a mouser for years and did quite well. I was able to keep up with the guys with a 3D Pro... after a lot of practice. (that's in both D1 and D2)

I clear example of feel is playing Descent originals and then trying the IC mod. The ship doesn't react quite the same. (no spertion on you and your team Hexetic) the function is the same and the ships even bank slightly as they turn, but the lag time in and intervel are not identical.

In mouse look this is none existant. It's nearly instant...which has been said before.

Now, can we shoot this horse in head once more for good measure and call it dead??

[Diedel]

Yeah, make some tasty sausage of it.

Krom and Testi know what they're talking about.

I know.

can't you understand, or can't you read?

You've gone this far without being flamed. There's a reason for it. Don't start trying to provoke people now.

It doesn't change anything about your "flying experience", your "feeling of flying"....

It does change your flight experience if the people you're fighting can turn 180 degrees instantly. It reduces the power of "getting the right angle" to attack from, among other things.

I knew dang well what I wrote, and if I get the impression people start to intentionally misunderstand me to avoid my point, I start getting upset. The same goes for you. Foil chose clear words about the "feeling of flying a winged vessel". Read my bicycle analogy. Btw, I didn't say there weren't good arguments against mouselook, but I just picked up the single point of feeling like in a winged ship. You don't seem to have understood that either (no offense).

I am a rather exacting person, so if you say "A" to me, I pick up "A" and reply let's say "not A". Now if people start responding, "hey, B" I get slightly irritated. Foil started out on his feeling of sitting in an airplane and ended up with overall game experience. So he started with "A", and when I replied "not A", he jumped to "B". Well, that's talking about a different all of a sudden.

[Foil]

Foil started out on his feeling of sitting in an airplane and ended up with overall game experience. ... Well, that's talking about a different all of a sudden.

Maybe I shouldn't have used a term like "feeling of flying a ship", but I hope I've clarified my meaning since then.

Anyway, I think everyone here understands each other's stance on the matter. That horse is probably quite dead.

[Diedel]

Yes, everything is absolutely, perfectly, totally, abundantly clear now. Everything.