DescentBB

So for a long time I believed that all religion was a foolish trend derived from years of wondering what the sun and the stars were. Only to evolve and change into Moslems, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, and more. But now I’ve realized what I think Jesus was trying to teach. Of course it’s not exactly what has been preached, but I see how the act of dying for others sins can be great.
From what I understand even if he wasn’t the sun of God, he was a criminal and had comrades that were hunted as well. So even if he didn’t die for the sins of man kind, giving him self up to die, so that his friends would have an easier time, would be logical and honorable. And if anything, this is the greatest way to live by.
For example, living to die for other’s sins: going to war and living through hell so that millions of others can live a better life is a perfect example. Even if killing will send you to hell, who cares? Your soul doesn’t equal the many that you’re saving.
If there is or isn’t a God we can never be sure. And if he’s strict or lenient won’t be known till later. And if there’s nothing after death then we might as well view that as hell anyway. (me and my best friend almost joined the marines to help fight Bush’s war. We had low grades and felt like killing after Sept 11th. Both our parents stopped us.)
People will agree that knowing Jesus and fallowing what he taught should lead to a more well rounded person. But look at who’s stopping stemcell research? Even if it’s the most immoral thing you could do, it’s the answer to the reverse engineering of great things. Even if God says, “every one who votes for it will go to hell” a true Christian should say, “good! It’s worth it!” And even if it takes a million dead babies and damns an entire nation, for the next twelve years, at least from then on children can be born with new cures. So that <i>they</i> don’t have to <i>live</i> in hell. You’re selfish if you’re voting to save your immortal soul, because what about the millions of generations that fallow you? If ‘Passing the buck,’ to the next generation, is what churches teach, then they have to be wrong.
Jesus had a great message and I think I understand it better than most people do. And far better than most religious people I know.
Since I’ve discovered this message my life has gotten much better. I now pay the rent for everyone who lives in my apartment. I’ll stand on the bus if there are no seats and make young men stand if an old woman gets onboard when there’s no room. I will get the mail at work, in the rain, or in the heat so that others don’t have to. And the only place I’ve bragged to is here: A room full of people I’ll never meet in real life that might as well not exist. I’m still selfish but I can only hope to become like Jesus. But someday I can be so I’ll keep trying.


My writing isn’t that great so if you see mistakes I don’t care if you tell me.

Sorry to hear that, Isaac.

I've often thought about strange seeming-contradictions like that, how somebody might intentionally lose salvation in order to perform some sort of good for other people (like a breakthrough scientific discovery that helps others). It's even imaginable, although somewhat far-fetched, that it would be possible to lose one's salvation in order to somehow save other people. (Sacrificing one's eternal life for another is a sacrifice larger than even Jesus'.) The Christians will insist, though, that while these examples might appear good, they really aren't, because God never commanded them of anyone, and they define the good to be what God commands. I think that examples like these though do cast some circumstantial doubt on God-based ethics and perhaps even the justice of the Christian heaven/hell setup.

I, too, find in Jesus an inspiring example of noble self-sacrifice. Imitating that aspect of Jesus' teaching is a virtue worth cultivating.

I do think, however, that the debate about whether the ends justify the means is a problem for ethics in general, not just ethics based on religion.

As for the idea of giving up one's eternal life, Jesus said that eternal life = knowing God. It doesn't seem to make much sense to say that you want to give up knowing God for a good cause. Although I suppose you could get mad at God because the world is not as 'good' as you think it should be, and then decide you don't want to know God.

I find this very interesting, considering your name is Isaac.

Isaac wrote:But look at who’s stopping stemcell research? Even if it’s the most immoral thing you could do, it’s the answer to the reverse engineering of great things.

Thats some weird stuff you are saying, but im only going to address/clarify one thing. Christians for the most part do not want to stop stem cell research. In fact quite the opposite, there is promise in that field. However, embryonic stem cell research is ethically questionable. Using evil means to do good is still evil. Purposely destroying an embryo is wrong.







And now watch as the thread gets derailed and split into yet another topic on stem cells.

Isaac wrote:Jesus had a great message and I think I understand it better than most people do.... pay the rent for [others]... stand on the bus... so that others don’t have to

Here, I think you're right -- you understand some part of Jesus' message, far better than many "religious" people.

A lot of so-called "Christians" think of God as their personal butler, lawyer, banker, valet, bodyguard, and teddy bear. They live their lives totally selfishly, and think God is there to bail them out when they get in trouble, protect them from harm, and make them feel good. They think God is there to serve them.

Jesus' message was different. Jesus taught that people should live their lives in service to God and to other people. He taught that they should be willing to suffer and even die for others' benefit, and moreso, that they should be willing to suffer and even die in service to God. You've only picked up on half of that message. Still, it's a good half-message you've picked up.

Isaac wrote:giving him self up to die, so that his friends would have an easier time, would be logical and honorable.

Jesus didn't give his friends an easier time by His death; He gave them a much, much harder time. His friends were accused of only one crime: following Him. If He wanted to protect their lives, He could've stopped teaching, or told them to stop following Him. Instead, He continued teaching the same things until death (and beyond), and He told His followers to do the same. Historians (Christian and secular) will tell you, Jesus' friends were almost all killed as brutally as He was, for teaching the things they taught -- the things He'd taught them. His death was noble and honorable, not because it made their lives easier, but because it provided them and others with direct access to God.

(This isn't a ++postcount, just a stupid bug acting up.)

Isaac wrote:even if it takes a million dead babies and damns an entire nation... [future people] don’t have to live in hell.

Let me take your argument to the logical conclusion: if we just killed everybody now, nobody would have to suffer in the future. Sure, it means we're all screwed, but just think -- we're saving future generations from having to put up with all the pain that comes with being alive!

We could save many people a lot of suffering by killing everyone now. We could save many people a lot of suffering by killing millions of babies now. The Nazis* could've developed many medical breakthroughs by experimenting on the Jews in their camps. We could cause a net positive by committing atrocities now. But is that really the best we can do? If it is, maybe it'd be the right thing to do -- but if we can do better, let's do better. If we can make the same medical breakthroughs a bit more slowly but without killing millions of innocents, that seems better to me.

* Godwin's law can suck it.

somebody might intentionally lose salvation in order to perform some sort of good for other people.... cast some circumstantial doubt .... the Christian heaven/hell setup.

All that really casts doubt on is your understanding of Christian principles. How do you think Salvation works? How do you envision the process of Salvation, that a person could lose it in service to others?

You claim "Christians will insist... while these examples might appear good... God never commanded them." (You should know better than to presume to speak for others!) Such examples don't "appear good"; such examples demonstrate a misunderstanding of the way Salvation works. The problem isn't that "God never commanded them", but that the examples are nonsense -- if salvation can be lost, it's not as a result of trying to serve others, but as a result of deciding to stop loving God or to stop serving God.

You might argue that serving God and serving others might be in conflict and that one could therefore choose to serve others and lose salvation; I will say such a situation would only be an illusion caused by misunderstanding either God or some aspect of the situation. Jesus taught two things as the most important ideas: love God, and love others. God Himself has declared loving others as a good thing, and as a part of His own character. It doesn't make sense to me that He would put the two in conflict -- that He, sovereign over creation, would put someone in a position where the way to love others is to forsake God. (He might, however, put someone in a position where they simply have to trust God -- like the sacrifice of Isaac -- or in a position where it's not clear how best to love God or others. I never said following Him was easy!)

Lothar, the only logic flaw is see in his disciples being in trouble after his death, were that they COULD have lied to get out of trouble. And just thinking about it more, i don't think Jesus would tell people to stop believing in his word. It's sorta like imagining would Einstein have kept trying to spread the theory of relativity, if the idea was going to get him burned as a witch?

Well since i'm not sure of god i try to only thank him, even if life is hard, you thank him for the test. When i look back on life just about all bad things turned to good in some way. Why not be thankful? And what else would he want to hear from us other than thanks?

Isaac...

I like what you said about stem-cell research and I hope you bring that feeling with you when you go to the voting booth. Its ok to believe in the thought of a spiritual being but don't let it control your feelings when it comes to things that are really important.

Some, like president Bush and even people here, have taken the religious path in dealing with this subject and all they have done is impede cures for many diseases.

Bettina

ya know I kinda like the idea that he's a regular person. When i think of him like that it suddenly connects with me much better. And when i pray, im praying for him, not to him.

Issac wrote:Even if killing will send you to hell, who cares? Your soul doesn’t equal the many that you’re saving.

I just thought I'd point out that Moses was certainly willing to put his own salvation on the line in order to try and save someone else.

Ex 32:30-32And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

It's just that, as Lothar has pointed out, it doesn't WORK that way. If you honestly are attempting to sacrifice yourself to save another, you aren't separating yourself from God.
Have you, by any chance, read C. S. Lewis' "Chronicles Of Narnia"?. An excellent series of books, even for grownups. He covers this idea very nicely in a couple of places. From "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe":

Aslan wrote:"It means," said Aslan, "that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of Time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in the traitor’s stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards.

Issac wrote:And even if it takes a million dead babies and damns an entire nation, for the next twelve years, at least from then on children can be born with new cures. So that <i>they</i> don’t have to <i>live</i> in hell

One important note here, There is a significant difference between sacrificing your OWN life for another, and sacrificing someone elses. Many horrible things have been done with the idea that it would someday benefit people in the future. It's a very dangerous path to go down.

There is one other thing... Christians generally believe that the next life is much more significant than the present. Sacrificing that to make people's lives easier... and then they die anyway - is not quite so significant a thing.

man you guys are missing the entire point of Christs death and how it impacted the 12 Apostles. think about it, on the night Christ was crucified the apostles ran and hid in fear of their own lives and denounced any knowledge of Jesus to save their own skin. they were terrified that they would suffer the same fate as him and be hung from a cross. Crucifiction is a horrible was to die, the Roman's used it as an intimidation factor to try and control the people.
but now look at how each man lived his life from that point on and the manner in which all but one of them died. beheading, crucifictions, inverted crucifiction all horrible deaths, one must ask himself why men so afraid of death one moment would be willing to suffer so horribly the next without fear of death.

Lothar,

you said a few good things, but you failed to mention that it is God who wants to enable us to live like that. There is a supernatural dimension to conversion that doesn't just make it mean that we will now try to be a good person with all our might. God puts a new \"heart\" (denoting our innermost being and motivations) in us, and actually it is Him through his Holy Ghost who wants to change us and make us do the things he wants to do. Our task is just to align ourselves with that. Doesn't mean it's easy, but w/o God it's impossible. Isaac fails to understand that dimension of Christian life and divine intervention.

Diedel wrote:Lothar,

you said a few good things, but you failed to mention that it is God who wants to enable us to live like that. There is a supernatural dimension to conversion that doesn't just make it mean that we will now try to be a good person with all our might. God puts a new "heart" (denoting our innermost being and motivations) in us, and actually it is Him through his Holy Ghost who wants to change us and make us do the things he wants to do. Our task is just to align ourselves with that. Doesn't mean it's easy, but w/o God it's impossible. Isaac fails to understand that dimension of Christian life and divine intervention.

Overall as longs as you're good to people, and help the human race as much as you can, it shouldn't matter.
What if god told everyone that heaven will no longer take any more. Are you going to quit being a good person and helping others? I think people draw confidence from each other. Believing in god is good. But the specifics of what he dose and why won't be known till the end, and logically no rules should be made based on that. Be good to others because it's right, not because it's going to get you a treat in the afterlife.

Jesus' main focus on earth was his father's Kingdom. It's what he preached about, what he taught to his disciples, what he prayed to come upon this earth \"as it is in heaven,\" and what he commanded his followers to preach about. He taught that God's kingdom will solve mankind's problems; not man-made Governments. This is exactly why Jesus did not accept the Jews invitation to become their king; his Kingdom was not of this earth.

Knowing exactly what this Kingdom really is, as taught by Jesus (and not by so-called religious leaders who have warped its meaning over many century's), when it will fully come upon this earth and remove all man-made governments, and how it solve all of mankind's problems, is of the utmost importance to the understanding of true Christianity. The Kingdom, sanctifying God's name, and vindicating God' sovereignty, is the theme of the entire bible.

We do not have the right to choose who will live and who will die; we are just human. No Government will be able to successfully tell anyone what is right or what is wrong because in the end, again, we're ALL human. The question is, who gives them the right to say what is right for me, and what is bad for me?

If you're Christian and base your faith in God - than the only solution for mankind's problem is God's Kingdom. The world isn't under God's kingdom right now - which is why we all suffer. But the bible points to a time when Jesus will step in and cut all of man's governments off. Only at this time will mankind know what is right and what is wrong.

Isaac wrote:Be good to others because it's right, not because it's going to get you a treat in the afterlife

Excellent point Isaac. And most Christians would agree with you. Of course, we also believe that God is love, and that's why Diedle was saying that getting closer to God is the only way to learn to love better. But that's beside the point. Not everyone makes the important ethical leap of realizing that we should do good, whether or not there is any reward for it.

Personally, I call it Puddleglum's choice <link>:

Puddleglum wrote:Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things - trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a playworld which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia.

Even if it turned out that there WAS no such thing as right and wrong, I would prefer to have lived as if there were.

Isaac wrote:

Diedel wrote:it is God who wants to enable us to live like that. There is a supernatural dimension to conversion that doesn't just make it mean that we will now try to be a good person with all our might. God puts a new "heart" (denoting our innermost being and motivations) in us, and actually it is Him through his Holy Ghost who wants to change us and make us do the things he wants to do. Our task is just to align ourselves with that. Doesn't mean it's easy, but w/o God it's impossible. Isaac fails to understand that dimension of Christian life and divine intervention.

[snip]
Be good to others because it's right, not because it's going to get you a treat in the afterlife.

Isaac, that's a good point, but it doesn't even remotely answer anything Diedel or I said. Neither of us spoke of the afterlife or rewards in heaven.

What we spoke of is being changed by God, and living as servants to Him. Even if there was no promised afterlife, no promised reward, a person who is transformed by God *will* do good to others, because God has changed their hearts.

Lothar wrote:

Isaac wrote:

Diedel wrote:it is God who wants to enable us to live like that. There is a supernatural dimension to conversion that doesn't just make it mean that we will now try to be a good person with all our might. God puts a new "heart" (denoting our innermost being and motivations) in us, and actually it is Him through his Holy Ghost who wants to change us and make us do the things he wants to do. Our task is just to align ourselves with that. Doesn't mean it's easy, but w/o God it's impossible. Isaac fails to understand that dimension of Christian life and divine intervention.

[snip]
Be good to others because it's right, not because it's going to get you a treat in the afterlife.

Isaac, that's a good point, but it doesn't even remotely answer anything Diedel or I said. Neither of us spoke of the afterlife or rewards in heaven.

What we spoke of is being changed by God, and living as servants to Him. Even if there was no promised afterlife, no promised reward, a person who is transformed by God *will* do good to others, because God has changed their hearts.

When you start "serving god" it sounds like you're in it for the reward, that's all. I guess i misinterpreted.

Isaac wrote:When you start "serving god" it sounds like you're in it for the reward, that's all.

No; if my point was "you want the reward" I'd say "you do what it takes to get the reward".

When I talk about serving God, it's out of love, not out of selfishness.

It's a \"Father-child\" relationship. Only you don't get backhanded or slapped around. So when you are asked to do something, you can do it without fear or bitterness.

Lothar wrote:

Isaac wrote:When you start "serving god" it sounds like you're in it for the reward, that's all.

No; if my point was "you want the reward" I'd say "you do what it takes to get the reward".

When I talk about serving God, it's out of love, not out of selfishness.

Of course not. But you have to see why I would think that. Bing brought up threw CCD school and being raised Catholic, I got a lot of the 'bad people go to hell' kind of junk. Being raised to fear hell (not as much as a baptist would) seemed to be the point of many sermons.

Isaac wrote:Of course not. But you have to see why I would think that.

Yes, its a common misperception, even among Christians themselves. But it's not biblical doctrine.
The entire concept behind salvation by faith is that we want to be saved, not for a future reward of bliss in heaven, but saved from OURSELVES.

By ourselves, we find that we can't do good, because we are separated from the source of good. Even if we manage to produce some good works externally, it doesn't change what we are on the inside. The only way to stop being evil and to become good is to return to the very source of goodness and Love, God.

The typical cartoon picture of God that most people get is of this old man sitting in heaven with a chalk board. He's putting marks by peoples names of good things and bad things, and if he ends up with more bad marks than good marks, he doesn't have to let you in, so he's watching really close! It's like sending in a refund request, you know that the slightest mistake on your form will allow them to void your refund.

BUT, that's not how it is. God wants to bring us back to himself, to reconnect us, like the father in the prodigal son story wanted his kid back. He won't FORCE us to come back to him, but he is waiting at the gate, anxiously, hoping we will change our minds. If you look at the story of the lost sheep, you can see that he's not only waiting for us, he's actively out SEARCHING for us.

IF we will let Him, He will reconnect us to Himself, as we were meant to be connected, and once he is back in our hearts, he will start cleaning them up, making us GOOD again. Not just good on the outside, but actually changing our motivations so that we are good because we WANT to be good. Altering us so that good becomes natural.

That's why this entire idea of "sacrificing your salvation for someone else" won't really work. It's not a matter of giving up a reward so that someone else could have it. It's a matter of separating yourself from God so that you could do something good, but we can't do good separated from God.

Without God to save us from ourselves, we are simply stuck as the wretches we are.

Kilarin wrote:[Discussing the "in it for the reward" motivation]... it's a common misperception, even among Christians themselves.

I would almost say "especially among Christians".

It's amazing how many churches I've been to where the message is solely about getting oneself to heaven or avoiding hell, as if this life doesn't matter as long as one has his/her "ticket" in the afterlife.

Kilarin wrote:The entire concept behind salvation by faith is that we want to be saved, not for a future reward of bliss in heaven, but saved from OURSELVES.

Exactly!

Isaac wrote: Of course not. But you have to see why I would think that. Being brought up through CCD school and being raised Catholic, I got a lot of the 'bad people go to hell' kind of junk. Being raised to fear hell (not as much as a baptist would) seemed to be the point of many sermons.

A lot of good people go to hell too. And thus a take on the old addage: It's not WHAT you know, it's Who you know.

And by knowing, I don't mean hearing about and nodding your head. It's about following... like a marrage.

In the supernatural sense anything can be said, but in reality, saying you need God to be good is just not true.

Bee

Foil wrote:

Kilarin wrote:[Discussing the "in it for the reward" motivation]... it's a common misperception, even among Christians themselves.

I would almost say "especially among Christians".

It's amazing how many churches I've been to where the message is solely about getting oneself to heaven or avoiding hell, as if this life doesn't matter as long as one has his/her "ticket" in the afterlife.

Since we're quoting Lewis, in The Problem of Pain he writes, "It is hardly complimentary to God that we should choose Him as an alternative to hell, but even this He accepts."