Because of you potheads...

[Nightshade]

Officials: Mexican Pot Growers Are Polluting American Wilderness

Associated Press
Saturday, October 11, 2008

PORTERVILLE, Calif. — National forests and parks — long popular with Mexican marijuana-growing cartels — have become home to some of the most polluted pockets of wilderness in America because of the toxic chemicals needed to eke lucrative harvests from rocky mountainsides, federal officials said.

The grow sites have taken hold from the West Coast's Cascade Mountains, as well as on federal lands in Kentucky, Tennessee and West Virginia.

Seven hundred grow sites were discovered on U.S. Forest Service land in California alone in 2007 and 2008 — and authorities say the 1,800-square-mile Sequoia National Forest is the hardest hit.

Weed and bug sprays, some long banned in the U.S., have been smuggled to the marijuana farms. Plant growth hormones have been dumped into streams, and the water has then been diverted for miles in PVC pipes.

Rat poison has been sprinkled over the landscape to keep animals away from tender plants. And many sites are strewn with the carcasses of deer and bears poached by workers during the five-month growing season that is now ending.

\"What's going on on public lands is a crisis at every level,\" said Forest Service agent Ron Pugh. \"These are America's most precious resources, and they are being devastated by an unprecedented commercial enterprise conducted by armed foreign nationals. It is a huge mess.\"

The first documented marijuana cartels were discovered in Sequoia National Park in 1998. Then, officials say, tighter border controls after Sept. 11, 2001, forced industrial-scale growers to move their operations into the United States.

Millions of dollars are spent every year to find and uproot marijuana-growing operations on state and federal lands, but federal officials say no money is budgeted to clean up the environmental mess left behind after helicopters carry off the plants. They are encouraged that Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who last year secured funding for eradication, has inquired about the pollution problems.

In the meantime, the only cleanup is done by volunteers. On Tuesday, the nonprofit High Sierra Trail Crew, founded to improve access to public lands, plans to take 30 people deep into the Sequoia National Forest to carry out miles of drip irrigation pipe, tons of human garbage, volatile propane canisters, and bags and bottles of herbicides and pesticides.

\"If the people of California knew what was going on out there, they'd be up in arms about this,\" said Shane Krogen, the nonprofit's executive director. \"Helicopters full of dope are like body counts in the Vietnam War. What does it really mean?\"

Last year, law enforcement agents uprooted nearly five million plants in California, nearly a half million in Kentucky and 276,000 in Washington state as the development of hybrid plants has expanded the range of climates marijuana can tolerate.

\"People light up a joint, and they have no idea the amount of environmental damage associated with it,\" said Cicely Muldoon, deputy regional director of the Pacific West Region of the National Park Service.

As of Sept. 2, more than 2.2 million plants had been uprooted statewide. The largest single bust in the nation this year netted 482,000 plants in the remote Sierra of Tulare County, the forest service said.

Some popular parks also have suffered damage. In 2007, rangers found more than 20,000 plants in Yosemite National Park and 43,000 plants in Sequoia Kings Canyon National Park, where 159 grow sites have been discovered over the past 10 years.

Agent Patrick Foy of the California Department of Fish and Game estimated that 1.5 pounds of fertilizers and pesticides is used for every 11.5 plants.

\"I've seen the pesticide residue on the plants,\" Foy said. \"You ain't just smoking pot, bud. You're smoking some heavy-duty pesticides from Mexico.\"

Scott Wanek, the western regional chief ranger for the National Park Service, said he believes the eradication efforts have touched only a small portion of the marijuana farms and that the environmental impact is much greater than anyone knows.

\"Think about Sequoia,\" Wanek said. \"The impact goes well beyond the acreage planted. They create huge networks of trail systems, and the chemicals that get into watersheds are potentially very far-reaching — all the way to drinking water for the downstream communities. We are trying to study that now.\"

[flip]

They should just go ahead and legalize pot. How can weed be illegal but cigarettes and alcohol are not? If they legalized it the whole criminal element would die.

[Sergeant Thorne]

They should just go ahead and legalize pot. How can weed be illegal but cigarettes and alcohol are not? If they legalized it the whole criminal element would die.

That's funny, I swear I've heard that somewhere before.

You know, I've never used Marijuana, I've never smoked, and I've never been drunk. All three were big deals--big taboos--in my upbringing. You just don't do it. I believed my parents, and I still believe them. I would like to state that the difficulty with this issue is simply that people are being defensive of their interest in merijuana. Marijuana is not truely so comparable to smoking or drinking, and smoking and drinking are not really comparable either.

What is smoking? Tobacco smoking is addictive because of the nicotine content, and the smoke destroys your lungs.

Alcohol? Basically, to sum it up, alcohol has a numbing effect. On judgment, on reflexes, and on pain.

Marijuana affects your state of mind. The use of drugs, and that's what marijuana is, is actually related, flip, to the "sorcery" that is condemned in the Bible. The word used in the original texts (in the Greek) is related to the word "pharmacy". All you have to do is look at the effects of marijuana on people who have used it (some really strange stuff). It is absolutely nothing like cigarettes or alcohol.

So you potheads and pothead sympathizers can stop perpetuating the lie.

[Ferno]

What about mexicn cars? mexican industry? mexican anything.. their emissions somehow respect american borders?

come on. this is just beyond stupid.

[Nightshade]

The funniest thing is when hippies themselves are the cause of environmental destruction, they'll deny/justify/rationalize all the blame away from themselves.

\"It's the man dude. The MAN is the problem!\"

[Ferno]

see if you can give a straight answer to this.

Why do you think chemicals of any kind have the ability to respect a border?

[AlphaDoG]

Marijuana affects your state of mind. The use of drugs, and that's what marijuana is, is actually related, flip, to the "sorcery" that is condemned in the Bible. The word used in the original texts (in the Greek) is related to the word "pharmacy". All you have to do is look at the effects of marijuana on people who have used it (some really strange stuff). It is absolutely nothing like cigarettes or alcohol.

WTF are you talking about. What word do you speak of? Narcotics? Help a former pot head out here. I may have had a spell cast upon me.

[Jeff250]

Marijuana is not truely so comparable to smoking or drinking, and smoking and drinking are not really comparable either.

So you potheads and pothead sympathizers can stop perpetuating the lie.

As an aside, it is bold for you to lecture on the different experiences provided by alcohol/cigarettes/marijuana to a board where I bet most readers have done at least two (you admit you have done none of them). You can't really understand what it is like to do them unless you have tried them, just like a blind person can't really understand what it is like to see unless he has already seen. So you are going to be limited in the analysis that you can do here.

But you are still right insofar as alcohol/cigarettes/marijuana are different. But this isn't sufficient for exposing what Flip said as a "lie" (to use your colorful language). No one will argue that they aren't different. But you have to show that they are different in a legally relevant way in order to invalidate Flip's statement. And you have not done this yet.

[Ferno]

ah yes.. straight from talking about chemicals, right to 'pot is evil'.

but don't let me stop you... please, continue to pontificate, preach and filibuster away! don't forget the 'i'm smarter than you' angle. That's always good.

Extra points for bringing in the gateway drug argument.

[Sergeant Thorne]

Marijuana is not truely so comparable to smoking or drinking, and smoking and drinking are not really comparable either.

So you potheads and pothead sympathizers can stop perpetuating the lie.

As an aside, it is bold for you to lecture on the different experiences provided by alcohol/cigarettes/marijuana to a board where I bet most readers have done at least two (you admit you have done none of them). You can't really understand what it is like to do them unless you have tried them, just like a blind person can't really understand what it is like to see unless he has already seen. So you are going to be limited in the analysis that you can do here.

But you are still right insofar as alcohol/cigarettes/marijuana are different. But this isn't sufficient for exposing what Flip said as a "lie" (to use your colorful language). No one will argue that they aren't different. But you have to show that they are different in a legally relevant way in order to invalidate Flip's statement. And you have not done this yet.

Answering in reverse order: as I understand it there are two bases for the legal argument: 1) the notion that, just like stopping the prohibition, legalizing drugs (I see no reason this line of legislation would be content to limit itself to marijuana only) would get rid of the criminal element behind them. 2) justifying the idea, in the case of marijuana, by arguing that marijuana, cigarettes, and alcohol are all in the same class, so to speak.

No, it's not really that bold. Experiential knowledge is irrelevant. I don't live in isolation, and marijuana use is not one of the great mysteries of our time.

Nothing to do with spells, Alphadog. Just that the word behind "sorcery" in the Bible has less to do with Disney magic and more to do with the use of drugs and other substances. The native American Indian's use of the drug peyote to put themselves in touch with the spirit world would be a good example, I believe.

Did you say something, Ferno?

[Will Robinson]

I've used all three. I think cigarettes were the worst, one of the best things I ever did for myself was to quit them.

I don't drink very often, for example I bought a six pack over a month ago and still have one bottle left.
I've seen some really bad decisions made while the person was drunk. The death toll that alcohol racks up every year is unsurpassed!

I quit smoking dope when I decided to join a rock band (sounds strange right?) because they handed me a set list of 40 songs and said they wanted me to learn them in a weeks time because they already booked a series of shows and didn't want to miss them.
I don't miss it, a lot of things came easier after giving it up and the financial gain from giving up pot is a nice benefit, as well as not having to hide it or be subject to jail if the wrong person catches you with it. The circle of friends and places I'd end up hanging out changed for the better after giving it up too..

If I could make all three substances disappear from the planet permanently I would.
If I had to legalize any one of the three and by doing so make the other two illegal I would legalize pot without hesitation.

If I was in a position of power I'd advocate treating pot like alcohol. Make it legal, grow it cheaply and tax it back up to current price levels for a nice revenue boost with an 18 year old age restriction.
There are too many young people in prison for pot putting them there has not helped us at all, it has hurt us!

[flip]

I knew this would turn into a moral question about Marijuana. Marijuana and drinking can be directly compared I'm sure. Alcohol is the cause of many deaths each year. It definitely does affect your judgement and motor skills much more that pot does. I'm not debating whether it's moral to God or not. I'm pretty sure that Thorne is right, sorcery is linked to drug use but I believe that more to be man brewing something up like LSD or PCP. Pot is naturally occurring. So fundamentally, I see no difference between pot, alcohol, cigarettes.

All religious debating aside, my point is a simple one. I'm speaking as an American citizen. One that has the right to choose between belief in God or not without the fear of persecution. Making pot illegal, turns otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals. Their only offense being the smoking of pot. If you can get beyond idealistic views of how things should be, and to how things are, legalizing pot makes the most sense.

Not that I care either way really. To me it's a personal decision between a man, his conciensce and God. Here's my story. I crushed my back when I was 18 picking up a boozer beam and carrying it by myself. I'm now 38, and since I didn't have enough sense to quit working(sarcasm), I now have one collapsed disk and the ones above and below are ruptered. You can't explain that type of pain to someone who hasn't experienced it. I go to the doctors. What do they prescribe me? Oxycontins!!! First time I took one I puked. They never really made the pain go away and they left me useless. After about a month, I didn't crap for about 5 days. Dp you know what oxy's are. It's synthetic heroin. An opiate. No thanks.

Weed may not be legal, but it is far more effective and MANY less side effects than my legal recourse. Which I am convinced would have definitely shortened my life in the long run. I think I'll stick to what God made and piss on the rest.

[Nightshade]

The thread has wandered away from the subject:

Environmental impact of pot by the suppliers of the \"recreational\" drug.

It will be interesting to see where the blame is placed by the alleged users of said drug.

(Bears, bunnies and bambi are dying because of pot.)

[Spidey]

Let me see…Smoking pot makes you mellow & peaceful, but drinking booze can make you a belligerent ahole, which one do you think Jesus might approve?


Smoking pot may not be the smartest thing, but equating it with sorcery is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. (in the context of recreational use)

Oh, and as far as the OP…Nobody tells those growers to use chemicals to cultivate herb! Do you wish to debate the environmental harm of other cultivated plants?

[Will Robinson]

I bet the people who know the details of hemp being outlawed could show you how allowing hemp production could cut out a ton of environmental problems!
So really it's the laws against weed that create the illegal and irresponsible cultivation and distribution of an otherwise relatively benign and sometimes beneficial crop.
I see the irony in hippies hurting the earth to grow weed but really I think most of those growers are far from hippydom...more like mercenary moonshiners.

[flip]

It's not so much where to put the blame, but more a matter of cause and effect. Cigarettes and alcohol being legal and making pot illegal is hypocrisy. If it were legal, and as others have pointed out, controlled just as the other 2 are, none of this other would have occurred. I also have issue with dealers. They amass great amounts of wealth, then when busted, it all gets turned over to the police to use as they see fit. Drug dealers themselves are creating a police state with all this revenue they fork over. Could that be a good reason to keep it illegal?

Do you wish to debate the environmental harm of other cultivated plants?

Good point.

[Will Robinson]

...I also have issue with dealers. They amass great amounts of wealth, then when busted, it all gets turned over to the police to use as they see fit. Drug dealers themselves are creating a police state with all this revenue they fork over. Could that be a good reason to keep it illegal?...

Yes, and on a totally unrelated note, it also is a good reason to go to the FairTax to get all under the table transactions taxed.

[Ferno]

Did you say something, Ferno?

oh... just calling how the thread's going to go and is going. got your scoreboard handy?

[snoopy]

Here's my issue.

I'll set aside the moral questions for now.

If we legalize marijuana, it'll only get replaced by other drugs, when it comes to damage (social, environmental, and otherwise) done to the non-users.

For example: A large amount of damage is being done by people brewing up meth.

Also, even if there are drugs that won't grow in the states (I have no idea about opium, poppy, etc.) the effects of the illegal activity involved in getting it in is damaging to non-users.

So, is the answer to just legalize everything? Produce it all in a safe manner and cut out all of the crime involved in trafficking it?

That might solve one side of it, but I think the agreement is that that would generally hurt the economy, and would lead to a lot more people destroying their lives on the stuff. I don't know. I think it's a bad option.

In the end, drugs will always hurt something or someone. there will always be abuse, and there will always be drug-induced accidents.

I don't know what the answer is. I do know that it really pisses me off when greed (be it drug-related, big-CEO-related, or whatever else) hurts the general public. All this crap lately about the US public getting screwed for this and that really tightens my screws. I wish there was something I could personally do about it to bring some of these idiots to justice.

[Nightshade]

The REAL problem is that for some reason people (and I call 'em stupid) seem to want to be stoned/drunk/high/whathaveyou. I have no idea why they choose to intoxicate themselves- they claim it's to calm nerves/have fun/etc. I've been through some real pain in my life and never once have I decided to knock myself out with some \"recreational\" drug. WTF is so fun about them anyway? I know full well that we're little more than a collection of biological/chemical processes that have become complex enough to become self-aware; all sorts of stuff can throw that off kilter. The only time I've allowed people to administer medication to me have been doctors- and even then I don't trust their (our understanding) of the human body.

What I try to avoid- others seek- and many times they kill themselves or other people in the process.

[Jeff250]

as I understand it there are two bases for the legal argument: 1) the notion that, just like stopping the prohibition, legalizing drugs (I see no reason this line of legislation would be content to limit itself to marijuana only) would get rid of the criminal element behind them. 2) justifying the idea, in the case of marijuana, by arguing that marijuana, cigarettes, and alcohol are all in the same class, so to speak.

But the point is that you have to go further than showing that they are different. You have to show that they are different in legally relevant ways. To do this, you have to first address why we want substances in general to be illegal.

For instance, some reasons that a person might want a substance to be illegal:
1) A person on it has a higher chance of harming others
2) A person on it is significantly harming himself
3) God commands us not to do it
etc.

Getting anyone to agree on which of the above (and ones I didn't list) are good reasons to justify making something illegal is difficult enough. But you need to show that marijuana is different from alcohol with respect to reasons like the above.

For instance, if we take number 1 as a good reason to make a substance illegal, then we know that someone high on marijuana has a less chance of harming someone than someone who is drunk. So with respect to this reason, alcohol seems more apt to be made illegal than marijuana.

None of this is clear from your analysis that alcohol "numbs you" and "marijuana affects the mind" (they both do btw). So you need to take your analysis a step further and show why there are legally relevant differences between the two.

[Duper]

I think TB because 6.3 billion is an incredibly small gene pool and \"stupid\" is genetically dominate to our species. \"Lazy\" is a close second.

[Spidey]

The only reason the “vices” are illegal is because the government can’t tax the personal exchanges between people, hence they are considered “immoral” as a smokescreen. But sure enough when the government figures out how to earn revenue from a “vice” in becomes legal for the government to do it, as in the case of the lottery. (evil gambling)

Recreational drugs are very lucrative for the government being illegal, due to confiscation of money, property & all the money spent on law enforcment…paid by the taxpayer, etc. Pot will never be legal, because it will grow in just about everyone’s backyard, and there goes all the profit for government.

I guarantee if weed, prostitution or gambling ever became legal, it would only be in very controlled circumstances where the government could get its share in taxes…etc.

The government makes a lot of money on cigarettes and alcohol, which take a much higher toll on society by far than other recreational drugs, but they have full control on the revenue side. (not everyone could grow tobacco, brew beer or distill alcohol to make other kinds of drinks) But anybody could grow pot.

It’s all about the money!

BTW people have been finding a way to get “high” since the beginning of recorded history, (most likely before) so it’s prolly a very “human” thing to do…stupid or not.

[Ford Prefect]

Buy B.C. Bud. It's mostly grown indoors. It has a greater carbon footprint because of that but it's more environmentally friendly overall. And good for the B.C. economy too. Important in the tough times ahead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Bud

[Testiculese]

So, is the answer to just legalize everything?

No, the real answer is to decriminalize drugs.

Those that are going to do drugs, are going to do drugs regardless of the law. If they do the wrong drugs (heroin, cocaine, PCP) They are going to kill themselves (or others) no matter what the law says.

The laws on drugs are thoroughly unconstitutional. However the laws for crimes committed (actual 'crimes') should be more severe if the perpetrator is under the influence of any kind of drug. (This is sort of happening for guns. If you rob a house, it's 5 years, if you rob a house with a gun, it's 15)

This is the only way for all of this to end.

[Ford Prefect]

Drug addiction is a medical problem and should be treated as such. The \"war on drugs\" has achieved nothing except to increase sales of black Escalades with fancy wheels. It is a total failure and should be abandoned for a new strategy that does not create a class of wealthy criminals and bloated, distracted police forces.

[TIGERassault]

Those that are going to do drugs, are going to do drugs regardless of the law.

Wait, you're saying that people are no more likely to do something if it's completely legal, considered right and in large supply than if it's completely illegal, considered wrong, and somewhat hard to get?

[Krom]

Most of the people I know that drank underage, quit drinking once they were over 21... They said it was boring when it was legal.

[Nightshade]

Wow Krom...then most of the people you knew are retards. Doing something illegal simply because it's \"a thrill\" only when illegal? If we need a reduction in the population- that's where you should start.

[Jeff250]

Underage drinking is enforced about as well as speeding is, so there's not much risk in doing it as far as the law is concerned. The real problem with underage drinking is that it largely separates the underage drinkers from the more responsible drinkers, who are legally allowed to go out and drink. Underage drinkers drinking with other underage drinkers just compounds the immaturity.

I think TB because 6.3 billion is an incredibly small gene pool and "stupid" is genetically dominate to our species.

Duper needs to lay off the weed.

[Spidey]

What the hell is the difference between decriminalize and legalize?

de·crim·i·nal·ize

legalize something: to make legal an action or substance that was formerly illegal

le·gal·ize

make something lawful: to make an activity legal by introducing or changing a law that governs it

..................................
Sorry Duper...

[Ford Prefect]

Actually Spidey it is possible to decriminalize something without making it legal. A offence can be a misdemeanour that does not result in a criminal conviction but only a civil penalty, most commonly a fine.

[Spidey]

mis·de·mean·or

less serious crime: a crime less serious than a felony and resulting in a less severe punishment

Something is either legal or not, there is no in between.

Edit…

Actually that was a rhetorical question, because I know the history of the usage of the word “decriminalize” in context to drugs. It was a term bandied around by groups such as NORML in an attempt to appease those opposed to legalization.

[Ford Prefect]

Yeah you're right there Spidey. The removal of a criminal record for conviction does not really stop it from being a crime. Speeding is against the law but we don't all consider ourselves criminals when we do it.

[Testiculese]

The two words can be used interchangeably for the most part, yes.

Decriminalizing something strikes the laws off the book that currently make something illegal. Legalizing something adds laws to the book.

We don't need laws added to the book, we just need them taken off. The government doesn't need to get involved with it at all, except for aforementioned criminal cases. (Actual crimes)

[Canuck]

I don't touch no steenking Mexican schwag anyway.

[Spidey]

Yeah you're right there Spidey. The removal of a criminal record for conviction does not really stop it from being a crime. Speeding is against the law but we don't all consider ourselves criminals when we do it.

But the cops do…

Testi, I really don’t wish to have a semantic debate, but if you remove the laws against drugs, it would be essentially the same thing. You don’t need a law on the book to make something legal, the constitution states very clearly that something is legal, unless a law exists against it.

Edit:

Actually it’s the Bill of Rights, not the Constitution that sets the notion that all things are legal unless a specific law exists to prohibit it…sorry.

[Neo]

The REAL problem is that for some reason people (and I call 'em stupid) seem to want to be stoned/drunk/high/whathaveyou. I have no idea why they choose to intoxicate themselves- they claim it's to calm nerves/have fun/etc. I've been through some real pain in my life and never once have I decided to knock myself out with some "recreational" drug. WTF is so fun about them anyway? I know full well that we're little more than a collection of biological/chemical processes that have become complex enough to become self-aware; all sorts of stuff can throw that off kilter. The only time I've allowed people to administer medication to me have been doctors- and even then I don't trust their (our understanding) of the human body.

What I try to avoid- others seek- and many times they kill themselves or other people in the process.

Well said, mate.

Call me crazy, but I don't like to lose control of myself. 9_9

All of the "recreational" drugs should be illegal. But people are so immoral that they band together and revolt against a government that wants them to do what's right. Whiskey! Tango! Foxtrot! =P

[Spidey]

All of the "recreational" drugs should be illegal. But people are so immoral that they band together and revolt against a government that wants them to do what's right. Whiskey! Tango! Foxtrot! =P

Including Alcohol & Tobacco?

I don't want the Government to do "whats right" I want the government to do its job. (protect me from others, not myself)

[Testiculese]

All [rap music and hip hop] should be illegal. But people are so immoral that they band together and revolt against a government that wants them to do what's right. Whiskey! Tango! Foxtrot! =P

Right back at ya.