\"Had Enough of Government? Quit!\"

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\"Had Enough of Government? Quit!\"

Post by Sergeant Thorne »

November 27, 2008
Had Enough of Government? QUIT!

Sometimes, accepting things as they are is what keeps us from fixing things that need to be fixed. Our frame of reference for life is sometimes tunnel-vision; we keep so focused on what IS, that we lose sight of what CAN BE; to use a cliche' sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. Government is a case in point.

What is "government?" The dictionary definition is a bit cumbersome, but in essence, "government" is a social construct wherein a group of people (the body politic) decide together what will be their laws and grant to certain persons the power to administer on behalf of that body politic.

So . . . . . . . We The People decide what our government will be. It's that simple.

If you think I'm incorrect, consider the actual history of this nation. The Pilgrims came here, settled, farmed the land, elected some amongst them to be a government and life went on from there. So in fact, the "government" of this land started simply because a group of people here DECIDED to start it.

We have that same power. Right now. Today. I think it is time we use it because the conglomeration of government that we have now sucks.

At present, we in the United States live under multiple layers of government. At the local level, it is a Village, Borough, Town, Township or City. Then there's the County level, with its own government. Above that is the State, with its own government and beyond that is the federal government.

All of those entities overlap; they all demand our allegiance and they all maintain means to punish us if we don't do what they say. As such, we seem to be stuck; save for elections where we (maybe) have a chance to change things.

I say we have a better alternative. Since "government" is "the body politic" then by the natural right of free association, we can choose to form and join a different body politic. Our own. With our own laws and our own people in authority.

Put simply, instead of continuing with our multiple layers of abusive, expensive and dysfunctional government, we can simply quit. Resign.

We can then meet together to form our own, new, government, with whoever chooses to be part of our body politic.

The implications of the simple act of "resigning" from all the existing political entities is enormous. If we resign, we don't owe them any duty of allegiance. Their laws do not apply to us and we don't have to pay them taxes because we are not part of their political entity anymore.

Of course, this is not to say that we suddenly have some ridiculous right to go out and rape, rob, pillage, burn or kill. That's just stupid and those things violate "natural law."

Of course, the downside is that the entity we quit doesn't have to do anything for us; no police protection, no fire department, no ambulance service, etc. But if we form our own, new political entity, we can buy and staff those things ourselves.

Think about this for a moment. If we quit one political entity and join a new one, then pay that new one for the services we need, want and desire, we can save huge amounts of money by redirecting our "taxes" to the new entity, thus starving to death the existing entity.

All those people feeding at the present public trough? Starve! All those unionized teachers who have, for years, failed to educate? Starve! All those bureaucrats meddling in our affairs? De-fanged and powerless. All those Judges who ignore our rights? Gone.

I already hear you saying "But Hal, they'll send their cops to arrest us, drag us into their courts and force us to do what they want." They'd certainly try. . . . . but what if, when they did send THEIR cops, OUR cops protected us? Their system would have to fight our system and when push comes to shove, things could get dicey - but then again, maybe not.

What if we begin meeting to set up new government? It is absolutely legal to do so because all political power rests inherently with "The People."

So, we begin meeting, we figure out what we want and don't want in this new government, we set forth a Constitution or Declaration of Principals and then, when we've got it done, we begin "selling" the idea to our fellow citizens.

The crux of the sales pitch will be freedom, property rights and saving money. We will be able to show folks how their lives will be more free and far less expensive when we form a new government without all the "social justice" bull★■◆● that presently has millions of lazy, useless, pigs feeding at the government tit.

Then, on an agreed-upon date, EVERYONE who wants to join this new entity, "resigns" from the existing entities.

Now, who do you think would join this new entity? Rugged individualists. The folks who work hard, pay their own way and resent-like-hell what they have to fork-over in support of our now-collapsing country. We'd get the cream of the crop! In one fell swoop, the existing system loses all of its producers; those of us slaving to fund them.

The governments that see this happening to themselves would try to use force to stop it, but what force would they have? The "producers" in law enforcement might like the idea of more freedom and saving huge amounts of money. They could very well come aboard with US!

The existing government might not have enough power - and certainly wouldn't have enough money - to force the issue. The existing government would wither and die very quickly from their own bloat.

An interesting side benefit? The national debt . . . . wouldn't exist for the new entity because the new entity didn't borrow the money. The old entity did. We can walk away and leave the old system holding the bag! When their creditors come calling we can just say They borrowed it; collect it from them!

This is not far fetched. It CAN be done. Without a shot being fired.

Instead of participating in their rigged elections, hoping and praying things change, we just bow-out of their system and start our own. Brand new. Fresh start.

Would it be a big undertaking? Yes. Is it worth it? Oh yea! Should we start trying? I say, yes.

Who is with me?
Written by a man named Hal Turner, on his blog (reminiscent of his former radio show, apparently).

There's some questionable stuff on there about the "AMERO," (always small photos, or obscure video for proof) and Wikipedia calls him a white supremacist. He may be... so far I don't see him as being overly extreme (violent), and we all have our faults... still, taken with a grain of salt.

I thought that this particular article had merit if only in that it's thought-provoking. I don't support it. I do believe that it's this sort of common-sense, no nonsense approach that will redeem this country, if in God's mercy it can be redeemed at all (looking at everything that has happened and is happening, it's hard not to be totally pessimistic, but looking throughout history, and knowing the merciful nature of God I am compelled to believe that there might be some chance). People today don't think like our founders... People today don't pack the gear the found a nation like the one we're currently riding out!
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Post by shaktazuki »

Just remember what happened to the last Americans who \"quit\" their gov't: over 600,000 dead to prove you CAN'T quit or they'll kill you.
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Post by Foil »

He makes some valid points.

However, what bothers me about this article is that rather than sticking to the subject of responsibility for one's own government, he nearly ventures into rallying cries for something akin to secession (sp?). As shaktazuki points out, those never end without violence.
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Post by Gooberman »

Hey, whaddya know, I agree with shaktazuki. (Just a guess, Barry?)

Less then 25% care enough about my side to vote, less then 25% care about your side enough to vote.

If we can't convince them to stand in line for 15 minutes, good luck getting them to quit their jobs and give up their comforts!
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Post by Sergeant Thorne »

shaktazuki wrote:Just remember what happened to the last Americans who "quit" their gov't: over 600,000 dead to prove you CAN'T quit or they'll kill you.
That was my first thought too. Anything's possible. I think the importance of being fully in the right is undervalued.
Benjamin Franklin wrote:I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?
Also I want to correct myself regarding his claims concerning the AMERO. He does appear to have high-resolution photos, here, of what he claims is a 20 AMERO coin.
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Re: \"Had Enough of Government? Quit!\"

Post by Bet51987 »

Sergeant Thorne wrote:....and we all have our faults... still, taken with a grain of salt.
Really Thorne.... This man is about as close to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as you can get. What bothers me is that you find it so easy to embrace people like Turner. It only took me five minutes of searching to find out what a jerk he is.

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Post by Octopus »

Changing the US government is one of it's functions. The system has small parts that need updating.
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Post by Tunnelcat »

Sure reads like secessionist propaganda. So what he's essentially saying is if you don't like what the majority of the country voted for, to heck with it, just go and form your own fiefdom? An all-white fiefdom I'm guessing since we now have a black president.

I'm hoping that better things will come out of the decisions that will have to be made. This country is strong and willing to go the extra mile to survive. We can't let fringe thinking destroy all that's been built.
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Post by Sergeant Thorne »

I'm being necessarily vague, because this is a subject that I'm not settled on, but I also wanted to clerrify: I don't think outright secession is the way to go. I hope I'm not that much of a fool (\"fools rush in where angels fear to tread\"). My thinking is that if it is possible, there is a way that the government could be returned to the interest of the people without essentially demanding an expensive confrontation like in the cases we've heard of. Force is, in my book, quite literally, the last and final option, though when it is called for it needs to be used first. A little scary, maybe, but it's true. I'm not an anarchist, but I do begin to recognize the chasmous divide between what our government has become, and our constitutional ideal, and the two are not merely distant, they are heading two absolutely irreconcilable directions. I mean what do you do? Play WoW? Do you work your ass off, get a college degree and make all the money you could ever want, pursuing what pleasures can be had under our ever evolving (and growing) form of government. It's not impossible. Are American patriots only masochistic fools, outside of the glorious pages of history books? Should we only go far enough to provide some relief to our conscience? Shall we content ourselves to leave the government to the politicians\\\"experts?\" What do you do? What is enough?
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Post by Bet51987 »

Sergeant Thorne wrote:...Shall we content ourselves to leave the government to the politicians\\"experts?" What do you do? What is enough?
Yes.

And, when they do not perform to the satisfaction of the majority of the people then you vote them out of office...which is what we did.

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Post by Octopus »

The US only controls confidence in the market. When it thinks it can do more than that, it's scary. Like a person with depression and a credit card.
Also we sell the us presidency, not test for it.
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Post by Foil »

Thorne, do you think the systems in place for the U.S. Government to be held accountable to its people, and for the people to fight for their beliefs (e.g. elections, as Bet referred to, and other constitutionally-granted rights) don't or won't work anymore?
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Post by Octopus »

He wrote he doesn't support the article...
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Post by Sergeant Thorne »

Maybe I have more in common with this man than a liberal (or a moderate), Bettina, where politics are concerned. Liberals breath air like I do (though I believe they manage to put out less carbon dioxide), and Hal Turner and I both seem to have more than a story-book appreciation for the concept of individual liberty). So draw all the conclusions that your 5-minute search affords you, and do with it what amuses you. I am unaffected. (please appreciate how many times I rewrote that so that it wouldn't cross from cold into absolutely and totally offensive <3)

Let me ask you all a provocative question: what is so bad about the concept of seceding? I'm not saying that it isn't possibly a very bad idea, but tell me, what makes it wrong? Some people were all up in verbal arms concerning Sarah Palin's former involvement with a group that had some ideas that leaned toward being secessionist (if they weren't out-and-out secessionist, which wasn't my impression based on the video that I watched). Well, tunnelcat, along with an awful lot of Americans, all apparently thought it through to the point where you know without question that it's bad. Quick! Why? I confess that I don't think you really know. I see it as kind of a commonly accepted belief--\"of course it's bad!\"-- and that's all very well, if it's so (and people like Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Jay (the Federalist Papers), and Abraham Lincoln certainly thought so) , but at the same time not understanding just exactly why makes you clumsy and ineffective (at best) in dealing with the subject. I think that it is necessary for every American to know exactly why (stepping on my own toes, because I don't necessarily know)! And the reason is that of the two secessionist views I've been exposed to so far, the views have sprung from a greater appreciation for constitutional liberties, as well as liberty in general, (if, possibly, also from a lack of appreciating the importance of the union) than most anything else I hear!
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Post by Spidey »

I was thinking we might have the return of “the angry white man” (remember him?) if Obama was elected, sure looks like the first signs…not just this thread…btw.
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Post by Octopus »

If you think we already live in a police state then, yes. But I think there's still time before we loose all of our freedoms.
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Post by Foil »

Sergeant Thorne wrote:...what is so bad about the concept of seceding?
Because it utterly gives up on the ability of citizens to change their government for the better, in our case via the systems granted us in the very Constitution you value so highly.

[Plus, as has been pointed out, secession is never taken lightly by the government in question (just for a couple of close-to-home examples, the Revolutionary War and the Civil War), and loss of life follows. One might use an "end justifies the means" argument, but I'm not sure I buy that as a general statement.]
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Post by Sergeant Thorne »

Bet51987 wrote:
Sergeant Thorne wrote:...Shall we content ourselves to leave the government to the politicians\\"experts?" What do you do? What is enough?
Yes.

And, when they do not perform to the satisfaction of the majority of the people then you vote them out of office...which is what we did.

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Sergeant Thorne wrote:... the chasmous divide between what our government has become, and our constitutional ideal, and the two are not merely distant, they are heading two absolutely irreconcilable directions.
Do we owe allegiance to the a majority, or to the constitution? I would use a court as a picture of what this country ought to be: the constitution is the law, the judge is the government, and the citizens are the jury. Take the law out of there and we have your picture.
Foiled again wrote:Thorne, do you think the systems in place for the U.S. Government to be held accountable to its people, and for the people to fight for their beliefs (e.g. elections, as Bet referred to, and other constitutionally-granted rights) don't or won't work anymore?
Not necessarily, no, I don't think that. I see where we are, presently, as a result of carelessness, compromise, and greed/corruption. I think any fool who hasn't been brainwashed can see that it hasn't worked, but our government was never meant to work in this kind of an environment. I mean, to blame the system when men are so obviously at fault is as foolish as blaming guns for the people who are at fault with them. The human factor is way to big to be concerned with whether or not the gun should allow the shooting of someone unprovoked. It would be equally stupid to begin investigating the fire-arm manufacturer at the scene of a murder. At the same time this is a systemic problem, and there's no mistaking the fact. Someone, somewhere is dealing both in guns and incentive, and they need to be shut down in addition to catching the murderer. Meanwhile, the manufacturer stays open, and any problems with their guns are dealt with as a result of enlightened consumer input and testing, not as a result of a murder.
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Post by Jeff250 »

Emigration is the traditional way to switch governments, and it's your best bet out of here Thorne. Seriously, all of this drama about secession is a bit over the top.
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Post by Will Robinson »

So he wants us to follow him to a better way of life, a better government...he's offering change...nothing specific about how the new way will be different just \"change\".

Hmmm, I don't see how anyone could succeed in getting people to jump on board that kind of vague platform.....it's so...last month.
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Sergeant Thorne wrote:Do we owe allegiance to the a majority, or to the constitution? I would use a court as a picture of what this country ought to be: the constitution is the law, the judge is the government, and the citizens are the jury. Take the law out of there and we have your picture.
My allegiance is to "We the People" who spoke on election day. I don't know what kind of "picture" you think you have of my world but it probably isn't correct. :)

I think it would be interesting if you would list the laws of the constitution you would create for your "new world order" once you hypothetically separated from the republic. :wink:

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Post by Sergeant Thorne »

Jeff, you twerp, of course emigration would be the surest way out. Why don't you leave the country. ;)

I don't think secession is the answer. But what is "over the top?" I would argue that demanding strict constitutional adherence (and meaning it) is "over the top," anymore.
Will Robinson wrote:So he wants us to follow him to a better way of life, a better government...he's offering change...nothing specific about how the new way will be different just "change".

Hmmm, I don't see how anyone could succeed in getting people to jump on board that kind of vague platform.....it's so...last month.
LOL!

Claws in, Bettina. ;) I don't want a new world order, and the picture is the one you paint every time you talk about the will of the people, at the expense of the constitution.
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Post by Jeff250 »

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Why don't you leave the country. ;)
Because I didn't start a thread suggesting that we should quit the government? :P

As an aside, I can sympathize somewhat with conservatives. Every election, a host of liberals half-heartedly promise to move to Canada if a Republican is elected. But the conservatives don't really have anywhere to threaten to move to, since any place more conservative than the U.S. tends to be third world. So I suppose that threatening secession is just the conservatives' version of threatening to move to Canada. ;)
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Post by dissent »

heh. I like my country and it's Constitution. It ain't perfect, but there will never be a perfect government as long as humans are involved in it.
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Post by Octopus »

yeah
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Spidey wrote:I was thinking we might have the return of “the angry white man” (remember him?) if Obama was elected, sure looks like the first signs…not just this thread…btw.
I agree a few of America's scabs have been picked off, and it may hurt for a bit. But when its all said and done, those wounds can now heal alot cleaner.
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Post by Spidey »

No Goob, the problem is…the way the political system here works is, only one part of the country can be happy at any given time. And, what makes you think Obama is going to cause some mass healing, that’s just wishful thinking on your part, because he’s your guy.
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Post by Gooberman »

I was talking about, (and assumed you were also by the quote), purely race relations in this country, not politics.
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Post by shaktazuki »

Speaking of the politics, read this. (Warning: big words.)
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Post by Spidey »

The “angry white man“, had nothing to do with race relations. Either you are too young to remember or have a short memory.

Does the name Timothy McVeigh or the Words Michigan Militia ring any bells? “Angry White Man” was the term coined to describe the growing discontent from people on the right, as opposed to the discontent of the left in the 60s and 70s.
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Spidey wrote:The “angry white man“, had nothing to do with race relations. Either you are too young to remember or have a short memory.

Does the name Timothy McVeigh or the Words Michigan Militia ring any bells?
Calm down, it was just a mistake in meaning. And you can't coin and claim a term that vague to only refer to your meaning.
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Post by Spidey »

It’s not “vague” to the politically astute. The term was “very” popular at one time. (and not that long ago, either)

Why would I raise race relations in a thread about discontent over government? Because Obama is black?

Try using some context, when you try to figure out my meanings.

BTW…lol @ “calm down”…as if…
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Post by Gooberman »

Why include the term white if it your comment was void of race relations? The argument that "angry white man" is clearly specific to "growing discontent from people on the right," is factually ignorant, and clearly does not have common consensus:

Wikipedia: angry white man
No article title matches
No page with that title exists.

You can search again:

Titles on Wikipedia are case sensitive, except for the first character; please check alternate capitalizations and consider adding a redirect here to the correct title.
See all pages that begin with this prefix.
See all pages within Wikipedia that link to this page.
MediWiki: List of "Weird Al" Yankovic polka medleys.

The term has been "very popular" at other times to have different meanings.

Further there is race relations in this post, from the OP:
Sergeant Thorne wrote:There's some questionable stuff on there about the "AMERO," (always small photos, or obscure video for proof) and Wikipedia calls him a white supremacist.
So we are talking about a white supremacist, you mention the return of the "Angry White Man," and I am suppose to extrapolate "discontent from people on the right"?!?!?!? No...my problem was the use of context.

Accept it as a reasonable mistake and move on.

And you know I <3 you. :P
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Post by Spidey »

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Post by Gooberman »

From above Link wrote:The Angry White Man is not a metrosexual, a homosexual or a victim. Nobody like him drowned in Hurricane Katrina — he got his people together and got the hell out, then went back in to rescue those too helpless and stupid to help themselves, often as a police officer, a National Guard soldier or a volunteer firefighter....

...He knows that his wife is more emotional than rational, and he guides the family in a rational manner.
Gee, how the hell did I miss an op-ed from the Aspen Times? With such clarity of thought to boot!

So I guess it's official, even in a thread involving a white-supremacist, "Angry White Man" means "discontent from people on the right," got it.

Move on. :P
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Post by MD-1118 »

Some nut on the Interwebs wrote:Where's my gun... I'm goin' out in a hail o' bullets, and leavin' my epitaph on Myspace!

(Edited for taste and application) :wink:
Libertarianism is a dying creed, sadly. Regardless of who Hal Turner may be or what he may believe, there was some truth to what he said. People need to quit treating secession like AIDS and realise that if anything's going to be done, it's got to be done by the individual.

Tell me, what if every person south of the Mason-Dixon line were to emigrate? I mean EVERY man, woman and child? It's essentially the same thing as secession, except the land and property remain. I don't think the government would take too kindly to emigration then.
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Post by Spidey »

Don’t patronize me with your little “move ons” and “calm downs” I’m not your child.

That was just one example of the term when I did a search…do you want all the links? I know this…”Angry White Man” has been part of the political lexicon for a long time, and when I use the phrase around people in real life, they know what I mean.

If you want the last word, then fine, I will give you the last word, just post after me, and it will be over.
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Image
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Post by Octopus »

yup
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Post by Bet51987 »

Hahaha...on the Republicans map. :)

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