DescentBB

How does it exist?

Actually, energy can be created and \"destroyed\" (used/spent/etc).

It's matter that cannot be created and cannot be destroyed (at least by any means that we know of thus far).

How does it exist? Well, we don't know everything about where the matter came from (but we'll be sure to speculate), but we do know it's here and we can't get rid of it. We can change it's form, composition, state, etc. but it will still be matter either way.

Wrong TechPro; matter and energy are one and the same and interchangeable. Energy can not be created or destroyed, but it can be stored and changed. To \"use\" energy is to change it from one form into another.

I'm not sure that energy can be created/destroyed. It can be converted from one form to another, i.e., Solar Energy to Elecrical/Heat Energy. Mass and energy are interchangeable via the ever popular E=MC^2 equation.

The idea that neither can be created/destroyed is one of the interesting conundrums about how the Universe came to be. Some theorize that the energy/matter was not created, rather transferred from another dimension. It is the greatest unanswered question of all time. Where did all this \"stuff\" come from or was the \"stuff\" always here?

I tend to believe it was always here, because even if it came from somewhere else, that implies it was somewhere. The idea that everything came from nothing just fills my head with \"vacuum bubbles\"

Nice beating me to it Krom. lol. What are you doing up at this time. Thought I was safe.

SuperSheep wrote:Nice beating me to it Krom. lol. What are you doing up at this time. Thought I was safe.

There is no safety from my before bed DBB check.

As to where energy came from, nobody really knows since it is impossible to tell from observing within the universe what was going on before and up to the moment of the big bang. We can be pretty confident what was going on afterwards, but the event itself counts as the beginning of time (or more accurately our reference of time). Unless we find something else to measure time with, no answer will be found.

Ah, cosmological questions. There are many theories, both religious and secular, but no answers.

I recommend you take a thermodynamics basic course or read a book about it. That's how science explains it, and it works.

you might start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodyna ... modynamics
especially this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

Some things have just always existed. Energy is one of them.

Energy is never lost - it can be readily converted (or transferred) from one form into another. The problem with energy transfer though is entropy.

Entropy is the process where part of the energy transfer is lost into an energy form that cannot be utilised. Petrol engines turn chemical energy into kinetic energy (movement) - but energy is also lost in the form of heat, friction, wind resistance etc. We can trap the heat and attempt to use it for forward movement, but this requires more energy conversion, which results in more energy loss through Entropy.

Because of entopy, you can never create a \"closed system\" where no energy is ever lost. So the \"perprtual motion engine / machine\" is a complete impossibility.

(...That's pretty much right isn't it Floyd? )

Exactly.

I'm not sure I understand the original question, though:

Wings wrote:How does it exist?

Why would conservation of energy preclude it from existing?

Foil wrote:Why would conservation of energy preclude it from existing?

The answer to the question "How does energy exist at all" is basically the answer to the question of origins. And the answer is mystifying and philosophical no matter what tack you take. Our brains don't wrap around uncaused beginning very well.

I'm not sure Wings' question is about original cause.

The thread title is \"If energy cannot be created nor destroyed... \", followed by \"How does it exist?\"

It sounds like he's seeing some discrepancy between existence and conservation of energy.

Wings, can you clarify?

Gekko71 wrote:Energy is never lost - it can be readily converted (or transferred) from one form into another. The problem with energy transfer though is entropy.

Entropy is the process where part of the energy transfer is lost into an energy form that cannot be utilised. Petrol engines turn chemical energy into kinetic energy (movement) - but energy is also lost in the form of heat, friction, wind resistance etc. We can trap the heat and attempt to use it for forward movement, but this requires more energy conversion, which results in more energy loss through Entropy.

Because of entopy, you can never create a "closed system" where no energy is ever lost. So the "perprtual motion engine / machine" is a complete impossibility.

(...That's pretty much right isn't it Floyd? )

sounds about right
for those who aren't familiar with that stuff, the term "efficiency" may ring a bell or two. as already stated: friction, energy conversion/transfer, heat dissipation/conduction (no 100% isolators), and all of them are combined somehow.

ohh, and energy exists as a potential, as i already wrote here.

Krom wrote:Wrong TechPro; matter and energy are one and the same and interchangeable. Energy can not be created or destroyed, but it can be stored and changed. To "use" energy is to change it from one form into another.

OK. This is one of those subjects where I could easily be quite wrong (like in this case). Thanks.

[quote="Foil"]

It sounds like he's seeing some discrepancy between existence and conservation of energy.

[quote]

There is not an acceptably demonstrated "anti-energy". Hawkings thinks gravity fits the bill, but I remain unconvinced.