DescentBB

Duper [url=http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?p=257460#257460](here)[/url] wrote:are we still in the space age?

LETS TALK ABOUT SPACE

It's dark...

cold... and hot...

Vast...

.

roid wrote:

Duper [url=http://www.descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?p=257460#257460](here)[/url] wrote:are we still in the space age?

LETS TALK ABOUT SPACE

The capability gives our era the title of "space age". Just like a man who's killed once is given the title "armed and dangerous" even though he might not kill again. We can go into space but we chose not to.
More information:

Bet51987 wrote:Since I'm a realist and humanist I would say there is no space age as far as the human exploration of space is concerned. The distances are too great, the environment is too hostile, the human body is too frail, and the costs would be astronomical to consider any manned mission beyond our own moon, and even a return to the moon would be a pointless waste of money that could be used to pay down the national debt and make life a little easier for life here on earth.

Since the ungodly vastness of space makes us prisoners of our own environment, and with humans still having an insatiable curiosity for the workings of the universe, we can still explore cheaply with unmanned probes and telescopes which I've always been interested in.

Bettina

x2
space is overrated.

Send my fiancee and I there, at least on the first Mars mission.... we'll love it. Great way to get away from the in-laws.

Bettina wrote:Since I'm a realist and humanist I would say there is no space age as far as the human exploration of space is concerned. The distances are too great, the environment is too hostile, the human body is too frail, and the costs would be astronomical to consider any manned mission beyond our own moon, and even a return to the moon would be a pointless waste of money that could be used to pay down the national debt and make life a little easier for life here on earth.

Sounds like the arguments against exploring the "New World".

Seriously, the NASA model doesn't work, we know that, but that doesn't mean that space is unavailable to humans, it just means that the "Large Government Agency" model is very VERY flawed, as we should have known from the beginning anyway.

For evidence of what it would take to colonize mars, I would encourage a look at the book The Case for Mars by Robert Zubrin. If you step outside the models NASA uses, the costs go way down.

In another thread someone mentioned that we had not colonized the Arctic or the bottom of the sea yet. And that is true, but it's not proof that humans can't handle that hostile of an environment. It's proof that no one has yet discovered anything there profitable enough to make it worth the trouble.

I'm not certain what (if any) industries would make colonizing mars profitable. But mining the asteroid belt is a no brainer. And zero gravity industry has tremendous possibilities.

I'll put in a plug for Obama here. He's certainly not my favorite president, but cutting the NASA budget and being more open to private industry in space is probably the BEST thing that could ever happen to our space program.

Kilarin wrote:But mining the asteroid belt is a no brainer.

Wait, you think there should be an industry to mine asteroids? Has Descent taught you nothing?!


Also, I'll never give up on Space travel as long as I can see stars in the sky. That should give us urban dwellers another few more years before we forget the majesty above our heads.

lol Bet. There is NOTHING \"cheaper\" about space. Getting there is expensive. Staying there is expensive and dangerous. Probes are not cheap by any stretch, but I'll side with Kilarin here; getting the private sector involved is the best way to get there and stay there.

oh, btw. \"The space age\" was post war jargon; early 50's through about 1970.

Obama = The Anti-Kennedy

That aside, I don't think private companies are going to be the answer for extraterrestrial colonization - at least not for decades if not a century or two.

Private interests not only need to be able to support the monumental costs and risks associated with manned space exploration, they have to do it at a profit. Gains have to be made on a reportable quarterly statement- something just out of the question when it comes to sending a man into space in any kind of a \"safe\" situation.

People keep comparing the little expedition that Columbus put together with some ships and supplies from the Spanish monarchy to space exploration. They seem to forget that Columbus had alot more going for him than just Spanish coin and a few wooden boats. Columbus didn't have to create the oceans or the winds to carry his ships to the new world- nor did he have to carry the oceans or winds with him (as fuel must be for space faring vehicles). He didn't have to invent the boat (sails, wooden masts, rudder, waterproofing, etc. had been used for centuries before.) Columbus didn't have to worry about food (fishing was not out of the question), air, waste disposal...etc.

Manned space exploration is either a national or international undertaking. It isn't a backyard proposition. Massive resources must be used- and without expectation of any kind of meaningful return for many decades.

If Bill Gates came out a few years ago and decided to take his company into manned space exploration, investors would go wide-eyed and flee turning Microsoft into a penny stock overnight. (One of his associates invested in a ton of little radio telescopes to try to catch a little ET TV. Although a bit fanciful in aspiration, it carries nil risk to life and limb.)

Backyard rockets are still the realm of kooks and daredevils. You might as well strap a bunch of chinese fireworks to a wooden chair.

Virgin Galactic? Spaceship One? Cute stuff...but they won't get places further than a proper national exploration and space program. (At least not for several lifetimes.)

Space is freaking COOL.

Lothar wrote:Space is freaking COOL.

x2!

If it wasn't for the space program, we wouldn't have microwave ovens, microprocessors, quartz watches, lithium-ion batteries/cordless tools, sunglasses, and a ton of other things we take for granted every day. The problem with the space program is that the investment doesn't pay off for better than decade, and everyone is too short sighted to put up with that.

vision wrote:Wait, you think there should be an industry to mine asteroids? Has Descent taught you nothing?!

Ha!

ThunderBunny wrote:I don't think private companies are going to be the answer for extraterrestrial colonization - at least not for decades if not a century or two.

Quite possible, but it appears that the government won't EVER be able to handle it.

ThunderBunny wrote:Manned space exploration is either a national or international undertaking. It isn't a backyard proposition. Massive resources must be used- and without expectation of any kind of meaningful return for many decades.

Only because the people with the backyard rockets have been legislated out of business. You are absolutely correct that it can't be done SAFELY. Exploration never is. But it CAN be done. (For comparison, ask yourself how "safe" early airplane development was)

One of the reasons space appears so incredibly expensive to us is because of the stupid way we've been going about it. The military was building a rational reusable space plane, the X-plane program. It got scrapped because we wanted to beat the Russians to the moon. The moon program, as wonderful as it was, killed space exploration. It was designed to be done FAST, without regard to expense, and was simply unsustainable.

I agree with bettina, There is no suitable need to explore any further than what's in our immediate reach.

Behemoth wrote:I agree with bettina, There is no suitable need to explore any further than what's in our immediate reach.

yeah.....uh....
Let's pretend we could move all factories into space. Wouldn't that lower pollution levels in our ecosystem? Wouldn't that make it cheaper for companies who had to spend lots of money to make their companies be cleaner?
Imagine if all the most toxic manufacturing jobs were done on Mars?
Sure it's expensive to move to these locations, but after a few hundred years of NO environmental regulation, taxes, or anything else that makes it cost more to stay on Earth, it would pay off.
That's just the tip of the iceberg of the benefits from space.

ThunderBunny wrote: That aside, I don't think private companies are going to be the answer for extraterrestrial colonization - at least not for decades if not a century or two.

Private interests not only need to be able to support the monumental costs and risks associated with manned space exploration, they have to do it at a profit. Gains have to be made on a reportable quarterly statement- something just out of the question when it comes to sending a man into space in any kind of a "safe" situation.

True. The socialist way is the only way.

Isaac wrote:

Behemoth wrote:I agree with bettina, There is no suitable need to explore any further than what's in our immediate reach.

yeah.....uh....
Let's pretend we could move all factories into space. Wouldn't that lower pollution levels in our ecosystem? Wouldn't that make it cheaper for companies who had to spend lots of money to make their companies be cleaner?
Imagine if all the most toxic manufacturing jobs were done on Mars?
Sure it's expensive to move to these locations, but after a few hundred years of NO environmental regulation, taxes, or anything else that makes it cost more to stay on Earth, it would pay off.
That's just the tip of the iceberg of the benefits from space.

Sure, let's just move our pollution from one place to another, Great idea!

Behemoth wrote:

Isaac wrote:

Behemoth wrote:I agree with bettina, There is no suitable need to explore any further than what's in our immediate reach.

yeah.....uh....
Let's pretend we could move all factories into space. Wouldn't that lower pollution levels in our ecosystem? Wouldn't that make it cheaper for companies who had to spend lots of money to make their companies be cleaner?
Imagine if all the most toxic manufacturing jobs were done on Mars?
Sure it's expensive to move to these locations, but after a few hundred years of NO environmental regulation, taxes, or anything else that makes it cost more to stay on Earth, it would pay off.
That's just the tip of the iceberg of the benefits from space.

Sure, let's just move our pollution from one place to another, Great idea!

Omg... I know pollution is a bad thing to spread. But who cares if it's in an environment that can't sustain life anyway?
Brain thing!!!

lol.. pollution in space. ..what's the worst thing that can happen? it fall to earth? hmm.. and what then. It will burn up. Lets start boycotting astronomy to stand against exploding stars polluting space.

dude.. THINK before you talk.

Krom, you forgot velcro and Tang!

HAHAHAHAH wrong.

Duper wrote:dude.. THINK before you talk.

Did you? Here you go smart guy: http://www.starbase1.co.uk/sfplanet.jpg

Isaac wrote:Wouldn't that make it cheaper for companies who had to spend lots of money to make their companies be cleaner?

I would tend to think definitely not.

In the foreseeable future I don't see any profit in space colonization outside of scientific research. You've probably heard me say it before, but I think that people absorb way too much in reading science-fiction novels, to the degree that they begin to use it unconsciously in their reasoning.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

Isaac wrote:Wouldn't that make it cheaper for companies who had to spend lots of money to make their companies be cleaner?

I would tend to think definitely not.

In the foreseeable future I don't see any profit in space colonization outside of scientific research. You've probably heard me say it before, but I think that people absorb way too much in reading science-fiction novels, to the degree that they begin to use it unconsciously in their reasoning.

I think you're right about me, but you have to remember the only thing that makes space travel expensive is leaving Earth's gravity. All we have to do is find a cheaper way. Space elevator!!!!!

Kilarin wrote:I'll put in a plug for Obama here. He's certainly not my favorite president, but cutting the NASA budget and being more open to private industry in space is probably the BEST thing that could ever happen to our space program.

Obama didn't decrease the NASA budget, he increased it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget
http://www.google.com/search?q=obama+nasa+budget

roid wrote:Obama didn't decrease the NASA budget, he increased it.

Sorry, I should have said he cut the Constellation program in favor of encouraging private enterprise to build space taxis.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:You've probably heard me say it before, but I think that people absorb way too much in reading science-fiction novels, to the degree that they begin to use it unconsciously in their reasoning.

1634 Weightlessness (Kepler) (from Somnium (The Dream) by Johannes Kepler)
1638 Weightlessness (Godwin) - first discovery of concept (from The Man in the Moone by Francis Godwin)
1726 Bio-Energy - produce electricity from organic material (from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift)
1726 Knowledge Engine - machine-made expertise (from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift)
1726 Geometric Modeling - eighteenth century NURBS (from Gulliver's Travels by Jonathan Swift)
1867 Launching Facility - in Florida (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Weightlessness - true science fiction discovery (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Retro-Rockets - Verne invented them! (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Light Pressure Propulsion - first use of this idea (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Water-Springs (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Spashdown - the original idea (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Free Return Trajectory - first mention (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1867 Columbiad - 900 foot cannon (from From the Earth to the Moon by Jules Verne)
1875 Diving Apparatus - scuba diving in the 19th century (from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea by Jules Verne)
1875 Nautilus - Captain Nemo's ride (from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea by Jules Verne)
1875 Electrify the Rail - repel boarders! (from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea by Jules Verne)
1875 Leyden Ball - grandfather of the taser (from 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea by Jules Verne)
1888 Mall (Great City Bazaar) - Wal-Mart foreseen (from Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy)
1888 Credit Card - why carry cash? (from Looking Backward by Edward Bellamy)
1889 Live News - prediction of newscasts (from In the Year 2889 by Jules Verne)
1889 Recorded News - Tivo for radio in 1889 (from In the Year 2889 by Jules Verne)
1889 Electrified Fence (from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court by Mark Twain)
1889 Phonotelephote - earliest reference to videophone (from In the Year 2889 by Jules Verne)
1893 Air-Ship (VTOL Airship) (from The Angel of the Revolution by George Griffith)
1893 Air-to-Surface Missile - first use of concept (from The Angel of the Revolution by George Griffith)
1893 War-Balloon (Navigable Aerostat) (from The Angel of the Revolution by George Griffith)
1894 Electric Protection-Wires (Electrified Fence) (from A Journey In Other Worlds by John Jacob Astor IV)
1894 Rooftop Windmill - renewable energy vision (from A Journey In Other Worlds by John Jacob Astor IV)
1894 Electric Phaetons (Electric Cars) (from A Journey In Other Worlds by John Jacob Astor IV)
1894 Marine Spider (Hydrofoil) (from A Journey In Other Worlds by John Jacob Astor IV)
1894 Magnetic Railroads (from A Journey In Other Worlds by John Jacob Astor IV)
1894 Wind Power Generation (from A Journey In Other Worlds by John Jacob Astor IV)
1895 Atomic Microscopy (from The Crack of Doom by Robert Cromie)
1895 Atomic Bomb - very early reference (from The Crack of Doom by Robert Cromie)
1898 Air-Tight Dress (from Edison's Conquest of Mars by Garrett P. Serviss)
1898 Biological Warfare - first use of the concept in fiction (from The War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells)
1898 Heat Ray - concept of the laser (from The War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells)
1898 Handling Machine (from The War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells)
1899 Kinetiscope Appliance - like a PDA (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 Moving Picture Player - like a video iPod (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 Automatic Door - like a roll top desk (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 Networked World (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 Moving Roadway - like a baggage conveyor (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 Automated Surface Measurement - 100 years before cgi needed it (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 Individualized Clothing Manufacture - clothes just for you (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1899 DVD/VCR (Entertainment Player) (from When the Sleeper Wakes by H.G. Wells)
1900 Aerocar - first use of idea? (from The Abduction of Alexandra Seine by Fred C. Smale)
1901 Breathing Dresses (from A Honeymoon In Space by George Griffith)
1903 Joystick Controls w/Remote Display (from The Land Ironclads by H.G. Wells)
1909 Video Communicator (from The Machine Stops by E.M. Forster)
1909 Telemedicine Apparatus - first known reference (from The Machine Stops by E.M. Forster)
1909 Cinematophote (Blue Optic Plate) - first reference to television (from The Machine Stops by E.M. Forster)
1910 Automaton Chessplayer - the first chess-playing computer (from Moxon's Master by Ambrose Bierce)
1911 Telephot - early videophone (from Ralph 124c 41 + by Hugo Gernsback)
1911 Electric Rifle - Tom Swift's weapon of choice (from Tom Swift and His Electric Rifle by Victor Appleton)
1911 Telautograph (from Ralph 124c 41 + by Hugo Gernsback)
1911 Personalized News (from Ralph 124c 41 + by Hugo Gernsback)
1911 Detectophone - machine translation of language (from Ralph 124c 41 + by Hugo Gernsback)
1920 Robot - the origin of the term (from R.U.R. by Karel Capek)
1923 Wireless Access Point (from Men Like Gods by H.G. Wells)
1923 Networked Telephone Answering Machine (from Men Like Gods by H.G. Wells)
1928 Pain-Producer (from Crashing Suns by Edmond Hamilton)
1928 Grantline Comptometer - long before Mathematica (from Beyond the Stars by Ray Cummings)
1928 Telechart (from Crashing Suns by Edmond Hamilton)
1928 Telestereo - earliest reference to holograms? (from Crashing Suns by Edmond Hamilton)
1928 Pressure-Suit (from Skylark of Space by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1928 Ultraphone Ear-Disc - no need for Bluetooth (from Armageddon: 2419 A.D. by Philip Frances Nowlan)
1928 Viewplate (from Armageddon: 2419 A.D. by Philip Frances Nowlan)
1928 Airlock (from Skylark of Space by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1930 Tight-Beam (from Skylark Three by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1930 Helicops (from The Black Star Passes by John W. Campbell)
1930 Solar-Powered Aircraft (from The Black Star Passes by John W. Campbell)
1930 Visiplate - early flat panel viewer (from Skylark Three by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1931 Space Suit - early reference (from The Emperor of the Stars by Nat Schachner (w. AL Zagat))
1931 Emergency Corrective Rockets (from The Emperor of the Stars by Nat Schachner (w. AL Zagat))
1931 Moon Walk - presages Apollo (from Brigands of the Moon by Ray Cummings)
1931 Gravity Assist - very early use (from Brigands of the Moon by Ray Cummings)
1934 Ablative Heat (Reentry) Shield - very early reference (from Triplanetary by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1934 Flying Wing - Northrup's all-metal dream (from Triplanetary by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1934 Visiphone (from Triplanetary by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1936 Desktop Flat Panel Intercom (from Things To Come by H.G. Wells)
1936 Giant Flat Panel Display (from Things To Come by H.G. Wells)
1936 Wireless Wrist Intercom - like a cell phone (from Things To Come by H.G. Wells)
1936 Photoelectric Telescope (Photoelectric Eyes) - astronomical pictures produced automatically (from The Cometeers by Jack Williamson)
1936 Transparent Flat Panel Display - early flat panel (from Things To Come by H.G. Wells)
1937 Groundcar (or Ground Car) - the old-fashioned present (from Galactic Patrol by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1937 Designed Bacteria - purposive genetic modification (from Seeds of Dusk by Raymond Z. Gallun)
1937 Artificial eye - first use of this idea? (from Galactic Patrol by E.E. 'Doc' Smith)
1937 Reaction Pistol - zero gee maneuvering (from Diamond Planetoid by Gordon A. Giles)
1938 Visi-Screen - future display (from Satellite Five by Arthur K. Barnes)
1941 Genetically Modified Food - by little people (from Methuselah's Children by Robert Heinlein)
1941 Automated Hotel Reservation (from Methuselah's Children by Robert Heinlein)
1941 Slidewalk - conveyor for people (from Sanity by Fritz Leiber)
1941 Automatic Speeding Fine (from Old Fireball by Nat Schachner)
1941 Magnetized Boots - made for walking (from Lost Rocket by Manly Wade Wellman)
1941 Traffic Control Camera - automatic identification (from Methuselah's Children by Robert Heinlein)
1942 Waldo - the origin of telefactoring (from Waldo by Robert Heinlein)
1944 Robot Lawn Mower - already here (from City by Clifford Simak)
1944 Suit-Radio - space suit comm (from Long Way by George O. Smith)
1945 Vision Plate - early flat screen (from First Contact by Murray Leinster)
1945 Geosynchronous Satellite - invention of idea (from V2 for Ionospheric Research by Arthur C. Clarke)
1945 Videophone (from World of Null-A by A.E. van Vogt)
1946 Logics - early home computer (from A Logic Named Joe by Murray Leinster)
1946 Plastic Igloo - with an airlock (from Love Among The Robots by Emmett McDowell)
1946 Carson Circuit - the secret of the Internet (from A Logic Named Joe by Murray Leinster)
1947 Ion Drive - weak but strong (from Equalizer by Jack Williamson)
1948 Microwavable Food - pre-packaged ready to heat-n-eat (from Space Cadet by Robert Heinlein)
1948 Portable Telephone - early reference (from Space Cadet by Robert Heinlein)
1948 High-Frequency Oven - essence of the microwave (from Space Cadet by Robert Heinlein)

more (and links to descriptions of each item) at: http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/ctnlistPubDate.asp

Note that many of these ideas not only predicted future technology, but were the actual inspiration for it. Remote Manipulators are called Waldos specifically because they were inspired by the Heinlein story.

People who read "too much science fiction" have given you much of your modern technology.

Space is bad. Shivans will come and destroy us all

\"Wow, thanks\" - Detective Spooner, I Robot.

Inspiration is all well and good, but not being able to tell the difference between science fiction and reality is something else altogether (second only to not being able to tell the difference between News sources and reality ).

...

Anyway - back to the show!

i'm keen on the asteroid mining idea. I hear they are rich with all sorts of useful stuff including a lot of gold and platinum.
Once we can build space-ships - while in space - we're set.
Building these things on Earth and then rocketing them up through the gravity well is too hard.

I wonder how we'll refine the raw materials in space, we'd probably need to use centrifuges no?

I have heard it suggested that the Oort Cloud actually extends out into interstellar space - possibly even all the way to other star systems. So when we goto another star system we likely won't just be travelling though empty space the whole way - we could jump from comet to comet. Lots of places to make fuel stops, or even settlements.

We could also find some dim brown-dwarf stars to stop at. They are notoriously hard to see, there could be some brown dwarfs nearby - even closer than Alpha Centauri.

Learning how to travel the stars is vital to the continuation of mankind. Well... at some point it will be.

PJB wrote:Learning how to travel the stars is vital to the continuation of mankind. Well... at some point it will be.

We've lived this long without the need to, May i ask by what reasoning do you think this?

Behemoth wrote:

PJB wrote:Learning how to travel the stars is vital to the continuation of mankind. Well... at some point it will be.

We've lived this long without the need to, May i ask by what reasoning do you think this?

HAHAHA. Fail.
Professor PJB: It took a long time for all the continents to be where they are today.
Behemoth: Well I've been alive for a long time and I don't remember what you're talking about... May I ask why that is?

Tell ya what Behemoth, you and Bet can stay here. The rest of us will try out the new sandbox.

Behemoth, there are those with an explorer's heart. Why do people do ANYTHING outside their house besides shopping for food and going to work? I understand the \"practical side\" but look at this way: why do YOU want to try so hard to make your own version of Descent when the odds of getting it done are clearly stacked against you? Where does that drive come from? Why so much passion? (I'm not discussing right or wrong here) It's that same passion that drives people to reach into space.

Look at the telephone or the MRI. Both almost never existed because no one saw \"practical application\" other than their creators.

I think with space, it’s just a matter of timing…everything in its time, and it ain’t time yet. Someday we will be sailing the stars, but there is no need to rush.

And I’m not saying we shouldn’t plan or think about the issue, just keep the expectations real.

.

History repeats itself, if you don't believe me just compare Obama and Carter.

But on the subject of human expansion, the same forces that pushed us away from Europe to the Americas will push us from earth to space, namely profit and freedom.

I'll send ya a post card.

Honestly though, while much of what it takes to travel in space over crazy distances in \"reasonable\" amounts of time won't be seen for quite some time; i think it is possible. With current technology? with current understanding for physics? no. Not even close. Once we get established in Zero G, I think we will find that some of our assumptions about physics are bit skewed. Everything we know and have observed is effected by the gravity well of our planet.


Just because we can't now and can't see a feezible way doesn't mean we truly can't. Remember why God scrambled the languages.

you want to talk physics, try quantum mechanics. We will overcome the Macro through understanding the micro.


..interesting analogy ccb...

Don't go to space?

What?

With that kind of attitude you should be asking yourselves \"what's the point of civilization anyway, can't we all just slip back into our tribal way of living?\"

Humans ask questions, humans explore. That's just what we do.

At the very least, space exploration and colonization within our immediate solar system could be very real, and very practical.

It's like most anything, the greatest expenditure of energy and time is just getting started. After that it's relatively smooth sailing.

On the flip side, I don't think the space age starts until we find or make a steady source of fuel that can be made or harvested while not on a planet, to avoid expending most of it during liftoff.

[quote="Spaceboy"][/quote]

hmmm...