DescentBB

I saw a few hundred protesters on the way to the capitol square while I was in town on Wednesday, but I hear the crowd has gotten even bigger today. Apparently turning over control of the whole state to Republicans who have proceeded to screw over 300,000+ state and local level employees for better than 10% of their net pay while denying them the right to negotiate about it has resulted in a large number of very unhappy people. And they say it is all to save the budget, which sounds pretty stupid coming from the same people that turned away billions of dollars of federal grants just because they were for ideas from Democrats.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/17/wiscon ... tml?hpt=T1

Sorry I have little sympathy for Unions in general and even less for State Employee Unions

It also hits all of the non-union employees as well.

Krom wrote:It also hits all of the non-union employees as well.

How so??? everything I've read about the bill states that it is a move to ban the collective bargaining of the states unions. I dont see how that could "directly" affect the non-union employees

Wisconsin's measure would end collective bargaining for state, county and local workers, except for police, firefighters and the state patrol. Unions still could represent workers, but could not seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum. Unions also could not force employees to pay dues and would have to hold annual votes to stay organized.

Sorry CUDA, get rid of collective bargaining and workers get to go back to the abuses of the 1930's. Corporations have their say in Congress, workers need some form of representation to protect their interests, or they become poor wage slaves. If the state is broke, then they need to negotiate new contracts. Most of the contracts state workers have around the country were negotiated in good faith back when health care was cheap and times were good. In fact, many workers traded wage concessions for better medical benefits years ago. Workers saw something happening that the states didn't. States should have done a better job of making up their contracts. Of course, now health care is a substantial benefit that most people don't want to lose. Unions will have to convince their members to give up some benefits now if they want to survive, because eventually there will be no money for their jobs at all. If unions don't realize that, then they will go extinct anyway, corporations will be happy and workers will become slaves to the man again.

I'm just watching the protest on TV Krom. It's looking downright messy with the Dems leaving town en mass and everybody yelling at each other. Emotions are very high. That may happen in Oregon too. We're almost broke as well. Something will have to give. Health care is just too expensive and right now, more than half of everything we buy in the U.S. is made in foreign countries. That's the 2 problems our state and federal governments need to address. No jobs and exorbitant health care costs means no tax base to fund our country.

It hits everyone who is part of the state retirement system, which includes plenty of non-union workers, typically the people you find working at the village/city hall are not members of unions. My dad used to work for a city and draws his retirement from the state retirement system, he was never a member of the union (and actually couldn't be because of his position) but this would have forced him to take a pay cut as well. Fortunately he retired from the system a couple years ago.

tunnelcat wrote:Sorry CUDA, get rid of collective bargaining and workers get to go back to the abuses of the 1930's. Corporations have their say in Congress, workers need some form of representation to protect their interests, or they become poor wage slaves....

Is that why all non-union wage earners are "poor wage slaves"...Oh, wait.... never mind that can't be because there are LOTS of non union wage earners who are earning top dollar in their field in businesses that are thriving!
You just love using sweeping generalizations that aren't true but suit your politics don't you?

TC, have you ever heard of the the Fair Labor Standards Act, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

it shoots your argument right in the foot. you might wish to read it sometime. but be warned it is quite lengthy

Collective bargaining should nave never been made legal in the first place, but I must say…Republicans are their own worst enemies.

Collective bargaining is an unfair advantage that no one should have…when companies do it it’s called collusion. As a business owner, I can understand how having an entire workforce bargaining against a single person, can be unacceptable. I don’t want to have to give out raises and benefits based on extortion, I want to give people what they’re worth on an individual basis. You should be able to come into my office and negotiate a fair wage, and benefits based upon “your” worth to my company.

Maybe some sort of arbitration should replace collective bargaining.

I agree totally Spidey. IMO unions are just a legalized version of the Mafia, using terrorist tactics to get what they want or they'll put you out of business, they also use the same tactics against their own members to stay in power.

What we have a a bunch of state workers all in a tizzy because the bad economy is now going to hit them. What I don't see are non state workers being interviewed about this issue, especially the ones that got laid off 2 years ago and have been subsisting on unemployment benefits. Teacher need to wake up and realize they are no better than any one else and that their real employers are the taxpayers. If the freaking UAW can give concessions to the auto makers, then the prissy school teachers can do the same. Or would they just rather a third of the teachers get fired and the rest pick up the slack?

Edit add:

Lest you feel sorry for teachers let me submit this one little snippet from a school district in Michigan:

"The total compensation of a West Bloomfield school teacher grew 173 percent over an 11 year period, going from $47,346 to $129,637.

The teacher’s salary started at $31,881 in 1999-00 and grew to $85,836 in 2010-11. Meanwhile, insurance payments climbed from $9,309 to $19,304 per year, and retirement contributions jumped from $3,717 to $16,854 per year."

So we should feel sorry for people making 129k a year?

And I don't feel sorry for some schmuck making $5 Billion in one year and not doing anything useful to show for it.

I do agree with Spidey that a single business owner shouldn't have the disadvantage of going against a worker collective bargaining unit, it's not fair or equal. Where I do see an advantage to collective bargaining is when dealing with big corporations and governments. Both are cold, calculating entities that have far more clout than the average worker. And we wouldn't be in this mess if our illustrious politicians in Washington hadn't allowed a huge chunk of our jobs to be shipped overseas and our health care to get so expensive that the average Joe can no longer afford it. We're seeing the beginning of the meltdown, because nobody wants to lose what they used to have in the past.

Woodchip, I think this thing in Wisconsin has gone way beyond pay and benefits. It's now about a protected and hard fought right that a lot of workers died for in the 1930's, that THIS Republican governor is now trying to take away. It's become political.

Here's some tidbits:

The local police, firefighters and state troopers would NOT lose their collective bargaining rights in this bill. You know why? Because they contributed to Walker's campaign in 2010. Anybody that didn't contribute is persona non gratis with the new Gov.

=====

Conservative contributors to the 2010 election:


American Crossroads

Crossroads GPS

American Action Network

American Future Fund

Chamber of Commerce

Americans for Job Security

Club for Growth

=====

Liberal (union) contributors to the 2010 election:


NEA

AFSCME

NEA


All this whining about unions influencing elections, but it kind of seems a little skewed towards Republican-based groups to me.

tunnelcat wrote:And I don't feel sorry for some schmuck making $5 Billion in one year and not doing anything useful to show for it.

Neither do I

tunnelcat wrote: Woodchip, I think this thing in Wisconsin has gone way beyond pay and benefits. It's now about a protected and hard fought right that a lot of workers died for in the 1930's, that THIS Republican governor is now trying to take away. It's become political.

I don't believe it was state employee's that were doing the dying. Protected or not, the economic condition of the state budgets will mandate either concessions or layoffs. And it's not political. You will find governors with a D in front of their name doing the same thing.

I heard a protester on TV state that it was no longer about benefits or wages, only the about the right to collectively bargain being taken away. As for people dying, it's funny how the lessons of history are lost to time. Back in the 1930's, workers were routinely beaten, harassed and yes, murdered, just for the act of TRYING to organize a union. Sure, no state workers have died as a result of their defiance now, but how far will Walker go to get his way. I don't see the 2 sides budging at all. Something is going to have to give.

I find it funny how unions are so easily ridiculed and vilified, and yet, corporations seem to get away with the theft of taxpayer dollars all the time and no one bats an eye. Americans are blind in their servitude to the new robber barons.

As I also heard it, the state budget for Wisconsin was in the black until Walker gave a few corporations a late Christmas gift of huge tax breaks. Maybe Krom can correct me if I'm wrong. Sounds just like what the Republicans did in Washington. So now the budget woes fall on the backs of state workers and common people. Nice. If we keep propping up and coddling corporations that way, we're all going to be in the poor house.

tunnelcat wrote:I heard a protester on TV state that it was no longer about benefits or wages, only the about the right to collectively bargain being taken away. As for people dying, it's funny how the lessons of history are lost to time. Back in the 1930's, workers were routinely beaten, harassed and yes, murdered, just for the act of TRYING to organize a union. Sure, no state workers have died as a result of their defiance now, but how far will Walker go to get his way.

so you're making the Accusation that Gov Walker will beat, harass, and Murder the Union members if they don't bow down to him. HRM

tunnelcat wrote:I find it funny how unions are so easily ridiculed and vilified, and yet, corporations seem to get away with the theft of taxpayer dollars all the time and no one bats an eye. Americans are blind in their servitude to the new robber barons.

Ya and Unions have NEVER used intimidation against Business OR its members. or forced members to pay dues, or tried have the Government pass laws that allows them to know how their members vote in elections. I'm sure Unions are spotless. it's all the BIG BAD Corporations that are at fault." it's funny how the lessons of history are lost to time"

tunnelcat wrote:As I also heard it, the state budget for Wisconsin was in the black until Walker gave a few corporations a late Christmas gift of huge tax breaks. Maybe Krom can correct me if I'm wrong.

you'll need to post a link before I buy that one. the man has only been in office for 45 days

Mobsters started unions and still control unions. What was the famous Italian mobster that started the Teamsters Union Jimmy Hoffa. Who is the leader of the Teamster union James Hoffa Jr.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/07/nyreg ... .html?_r=1

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financia ... C14F81.htm

http://www.northjersey.com/news/crime_c ... _term.html

It was the UAW that brought GM to bankruptcy and It is the state Unions bringing the states to the same condition. Only with states it is you and I who are funding the unions and all the perks thru ever higher property taxes and school millage's. So when you see all the protestors out there just imagine how much lighter your wallet will be if they succeed.

Too many of you are listening to the lies by the unions and the Democrats they own! The bill provides for some minor tweaks, mainly take the benefits package off the bargaining table, which for teachers is now worth nearly $50,000! There is nothing in this bill that cuts pay or reduces benefits. Teachers can still negotiate pay, and if the state reduces benefits, they could conceivably ask for more money to make up the difference.

Here is a link to the bill:http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/SB-13.pdf Read it do some research, form your own conclusions!

Here are some more facts for you: An average teacher in WI, including pay and benefits, costs over $100,000! Is that reasonable? Can any state afford that in this economy?

In the past it is true that corporate abuse of low wage employees was rampant and appalling. That was then, this is now. Today, the Democratic National Committee is practically a division of the unions. How many employers in the private sector would be able to stay in business if the hiring managers and the fiscal managers and the business managers were all working for the employees union? Yet, given the amount of money flowing into into the Democrat's coffers that is what this amounts to.

Furthermore, the Democrats are trying to subvert the process, by being absent. That is NOT how the process is meant to work. The citizens voted in the Republicans who ran on the platform of reducing exactly this kind of abuse, of breaking the unions hold on the govt. The Dems are fighting to keep the status quo, and it will come back to bite them in the end.

there is also question on whether the President is in violation of the constitution by getting involved with this state issue.

CUDA wrote:there is also question on whether the President is in violation of the constitution by getting involved with this state issue.

Irrelevant, as the "government" is and has been a large group of corporations that named and structured themselves the same as the now-defunct republic government. Public Policy, Contraw Law, and the Uniform Commercial Code are and have been the Supreme Laws of the Land for decades. Only now is this finally dawning on people.

Skyalmian wrote:

CUDA wrote:there is also question on whether the President is in violation of the constitution by getting involved with this state issue.

Irrelevant, as the "government" is and has been a large group of corporations that named and structured themselves the same as the now-defunct republic government. Public Policy, Contraw Law, and the Uniform Commercial Code are and have been the Supreme Laws of the Land for decades. Only now is this finally dawning on people.

Skyalmian, I am impressed, not many people have seen the truth.

Wow Skyalmian, I'm impressed too. That hit the nail on the head of all our problems.

Anyone that didn't know corporations are grabbing control of everything must have had their heads buried in the sand for the last decade.

Correction -- the last 6 decades.

tunnelcat wrote:...
[snip list] .... [/sniplist]
All this whining about unions influencing elections, but it kind of seems a little skewed towards Republican-based groups to me.

TC how many of those organizations on the conservative list hold peoples JOBS as a bargaining chip to leverage them into supporting the organizations political agenda?!!!?
How many on the conservative list have the muscle of the federal government to protect them as an institution that enables them to wield such power over their memebers?!?!
There is simply no comparison!!

You are just being ridiculous if you think the list being longer on one side somehow indicates the power and influence being brought to bear on our political system! Your conclusion is absolutely ridiculous!

Skyalmian wrote:

CUDA wrote:there is also question on whether the President is in violation of the constitution by getting involved with this state issue.

Irrelevant, as the "government" is and has been a large group of corporations that named and structured themselves the same as the now-defunct republic government. Public Policy, Contraw Law, and the Uniform Commercial Code are and have been the Supreme Laws of the Land for decades. Only now is this finally dawning on people.

HARDLY IRRELEVANT
while I'll agree with your statement, it in fact has nothing to do with this issue. the Issue currently being discussed is what is going on in Wisconsin with the state trying to take away the CBA of the unions and the ramifications of it.

Will Robinson wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:...
[snip list] .... [/sniplist]
All this whining about unions influencing elections, but it kind of seems a little skewed towards Republican-based groups to me.

TC how many of those organizations on the conservative list hold peoples JOBS as a bargaining chip to leverage them into supporting the organizations political agenda?!!!?
How many on the conservative list have the muscle of the federal government to protect them as an institution that enables them to wield such power over their memebers?!?!
There is simply no comparison!!

You are just being ridiculous if you think the list being longer on one side somehow indicates the power and influence being brought to bear on our political system! Your conclusion is absolutely ridiculous!

All those conservative organizations influence our government and congress with their pro business agenda, which DO have the power to change laws and regulations in favor of big corporations. That makes it feasible and profitable for those corporations to ship all our manufacturing JOBS to foreign countries, where labor is cheaper and environmental regulations don't apply, just so Americans can buy cheap crap, low quality products. Suckers. I guess the only good thing is that these corporations now poison the air and water in other countries, not ours.

tunnelcat wrote:...

All those conservative organizations influence our government and congress with their pro business agenda, which DO have the power to change laws and regulations in favor of big corporations. That makes it feasible and profitable for those corporations to ship all our manufacturing JOBS to foreign countries, where labor is cheaper and environmental regulations don't apply, just so Americans can buy cheap crap, low quality products. Suckers. I guess the only good thing is that these corporations now poison the air and water in other countries, not ours.

You asserted the whining about unions influencing elections doesn't compare with the other groups in your list.
I reminded you that none of the other groups have the muscle of the federal government protecting their tactics. And I pointed out only the unions have a direct strangle hold on the very livelihood of it's members....read up on Card Check as but one small example...read up on union thuggery for a taste of their modus operandi THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROTECTING WORKERS.

So you come back with the fact that conservative groups lobby government....?!?!
Yea? So what?!? Am I supposed to believe there are no left wing business groups affecting our government?
There is a big difference between the unions as a political faction and other groups that have no support other than the volunteers they can attract!!
Both sides have groups of special interests, corporate and other. Only the leftwing has the very powerful and government protected professional goons (read:Unions) and your attempt to dance around the distinction is weak.
Harry Reid is a senator today ONLY because of the unions in Las Vegas. Plain and simple, they gave him the win when he couldn't get the votes otherwise. Nice job carrying the water for the democrats like you do and still having the nerve to complain about corruption in government!!
If you were in support of a level playing field in politics you would be in favor of either abolishing unions or neutering them so they could have no impact on their members political leanings. It should be a federal crime to try to coerce a citizen to vote one way or the other. Instead liberals are trying to make it a law that unions can do that very thing!! Now go show me how any other group has that kind of influence and protection!

Well the timid "Lets hide in another state to avoid doing our job" Demmoscammers of WI now have a choice. Get back and vote or cost the state 165 million:

"Now they have one day to return to work before the state loses out on the chance to refinance debt, saving taxpayers $165 million this fiscal year," Walker's spokesman Cullen Werwie said in a statement.

"Failure to return to work and cast their votes will lead to more painful and aggressive spending cuts in the very near future," the statement said."

So I guess sucking up to the union bosses is more important than getting the budget under control. Heck 165 mil here, a 165 mil there and pretty soon you're talking real money. After all the Democrats for years have shown that heaping on the debt is no big deal. The kids will pay for it later on. Unfortunately there is no more putting it off and when faced with acting responsible the Democrats decide to do a Ostrich.

Jennifer Brunner, a former Ohio secretary of state, summed up nicely what she believed was currently happening on her Facebook page, and I agree:


“A dozen cookies are put down in front of a C.E.O., a union member and a Tea Partier,” she said. “The C.E.O. takes 11. Then he says to the Tea Partier, ‘That union guy wants yours.’ ”


Koch's poodle, Walker, is becoming a puppet for the uber wealthy. Unions get funds from multitudes of common people who would otherwise have no political influence, while corporate CEO's buy their power and wield it for personal profit, without concern for all of those who have to work for a living.

Union membership has fallen to lows not seen since 1932, 12.8% for the entire workforce. The public sector currently is 36.8% union, while the private sector is only 7.6% union. Unions built the middle class during the 1950's and 60's, but their graft and resistance to change is partially at fault for their decline. But how is this paltry number of union workers a threat to the Republican way? They've almost decimated unions totally in the private sector, so I guess they won't be happy until they decimate all those in the public sector.

I'm not a union member. My wages are comprable to a teacher's with no union. I'm doing okay, I think they'll do okay.
They just need to quit whining.

If you weren't smart enough to solidify your own retirement fund you aren't smart enough to be protesting anything.

When people forget what working conditions were like that lead to the formation of unions in the first place, they will be destined to relive those conditions in the future. Sure, the small, independent businesses that drive the economy now don't need unions, but if big manufacturing ever returns to the U.S. in force, conditions will be ripe for worker abuse, AGAIN. Never give up a right, it will be almost impossible to get back without a fight.

tunnelcat wrote:...but if big manufacturing ever returns to the U.S. in force, ...

Lol! WHY would anyone want to move his manufacturing facilities into this country?!?
The cost of doing business with a UNION is just one of many reasons they don't, won't and all say Been there, done that..till it almost broke us...

x2 @ Willy
Globalization dictates that we push almost all labor intensive jobs off shores. The problem is our students aren't becoming educated enough to fill the void of technological and financial positions created here...

@TC
I don't think labor intensive jobs come back to the US unless something terrible happens to the minimum wage law...

One of the hidden reasons why the teachers union is a target for reining in:

"The Milwaukee teachers union has dropped a lawsuit seeking to get its taxpayer-funded Viagra back."

I guess the union thought getting wood was somehow another benny that teachers should have at the tax payers expense. Where's my freebie.

Will Robinson wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:...but if big manufacturing ever returns to the U.S. in force, ...

Lol! WHY would anyone want to move his manufacturing facilities into this country?!?
The cost of doing business with a UNION is just one of many reasons they don't, won't and all say Been there, done that..till it almost broke us...

Well, we're in a death spiral then. Get rid of the union wages, LIVING WAGES, that were the backbone of our strong middle class so that those mostly uneducated people now have only lower wage jobs to choose from, i.e macservice jobs. Now they have less buying power and tend to spend LESS, a drop in consumer spending rates. If they don't have as much to spend, they either quit buying things or resort to buying cheap foreign crap. So when they can only afford only cheap foreign crap, corporations will send even more jobs overseas to cut prices even more. I call this the Walmart death spiral.

Now since wages have tanked, tax revenues have gone down, because heaven forbid we tax the really wealthy. Revenues go down and federal, state and city governments can no longer fund anything and the schools and infrastructure go to hell. Public schools suffer and university enrollments tank because of exorbitant tuition rates caused by the disappearance of those former state subsidies. So now only those few who are very rich can afford to get a college education and even greater numbers of uneducated people with no skills end up in an increasingly technological workplace that needs those skills. We are now in the age of diminishing returns.

the Walmart death spiral was started when unions priced wages past the point of being competitive globally.

fliptw wrote:the Walmart death spiral was started when unions priced wages past the point of being competitive globally.

+1

have you ever wondered why Toyota, and Honda are the top Auto manufacturers in the world. it's because GM, Ford, and Chrylser Union built and Union controlled crap. priced themselves into bankruptcy

CUDA wrote:

fliptw wrote:the Walmart death spiral was started when unions priced wages past the point of being competitive globally.

+1

have you ever wondered why Toyota, and Honda are the top Auto manufacturers in the world. it's because GM, Ford, and Chrylser Union built and Union controlled crap. priced themselves into bankruptcy

I always thought it was more because of the anti-fuel-efficiency lobbying that happened in the 1980s and is still going on today.

And it is now over:

MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- The Wisconsin Senate voted Wednesday night to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers, approving an explosive proposal that had rocked the state and unions nationwide after Republicans discovered a way to bypass the chamber's missing Democrats.