DescentBB

Hi

I've been asked by a coffee shop owner to help him setup a hotspot in his shop as he asked the local computer shop to assist him but either their service is crappy or they don't know how to do it themselves as they just don't come back to the guy, even thou he constantly follows up with them, so the bucket got passed to me

So I need a crash course of how to do this. From my limited research on this so far it would seem that I either need an router that can do it natively (wireless guest account) or a PC to setup an Ad Hoc WiFi link.

To my knowledge his route doesn't have the ability to setup a wireless guest account so if I were to share the wifi as is for the hotspot his entire local network would be shared and any Tom Dick and Harry would have access to his whole network system which I don't think he'll be impressed with.

Also he has uncapped internet on a slow ADSL line but the intent is that his paying customer will be able to browse the net on their laptops etc. while on a business lunch or what not. So the basic idea he has floating is to just give the costumer the passwords on request when they place an order and maybe revolve the password on a weekly basis. This will be an included service for paying customers so no need for fancy launch pages to buy credit and over complicated setups at this point. Thou it would be nice to maybe do this later on and maybe set a limit of x amount of data per costumer per visit or something so that his line doesn't get raped buy some young jerk downloading massive amounts for the price of just one coffee either. For instance blocking p2p would also be a good preventive measure it it can be integrated, but this should not be to complicated as the guy isn't all that tech savvy himself

I'll continue reading up on this in the meantime as well but any advise or point in the right directions where to look would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

I'm no wizz bang networking pro (actually getting a degree in it now because I was frustrated with my lack of knowledge) but simple Netgear devices offer dual SSID, so you can have a private and public or "guest" network running. You could also figure out what ports things like P2P run on, and simply block those. Look into the newer wireless N Netgear devices.

Otherwise, a imagine a cheap ProSafe Firewall would give you the services you need to block various web applications.

Okay I'm looking at an alternative "router" for the guy but I just need some clarity here first.

I'm looking at the N300 WIRELESS ROUTER WNR2000 specifically as they say it's range is better then the WNR1000 also you can get up to 300 Mbps speeds for just a tad bit more $$ over its little brother that can only go to 150 Mbps. Their big brother I think is totally overkill especially considering the ADSL line he's running is really slow and won't even come close to those speeds, heck it can't even come close the the 54 Mbps WiFi he currently has, and at double the price of the WNR2000 I don't think so. But remember the intent is only light internet browsing, emailing etc.

So if there really isn't any benefit, range wise, of going with the WNR2000 vs the WNR1000 I could just safe him some $$ as well with going with the WNR1000.

But back to my questions I want clarity on:

1) These units are used in conjunction with his current ADSL modem (router)
2) How much further would this routers wifi signal be than his current router that has an iffy little antenna (I think its like the smallest you get stock with the router/modem) and really lack distance as this is my second hurdle to overcome and that is covering the whole area of his coffee shop.
3) I'm a bit confused by the data sheet saying that the WNR1000 doesn't support Simultaneous downloads, voice, and music. Is this applicable to having multiple users connected to the "hotspot" at the end of the day or not because if it is then I should rather go with the WNR2000 but if not the WNR1000 stays an option depending on the range issue.

Regarding the connecting of this router am I correct in understanding it as follows:

1) I'll need to connect the unit to the current modem/router via a LAN cable
2) I'll be using only the WAN port on the WNR2000/1000
3) I'll then setup the WNR2000 to run a public wireless SSID which will in turn then only share the internet connection and nothing else? (still need to go read up in the manual if I can get it how to do this exactly but I think this will be like just a setting under the wireless configuration settings on the router)

Also his current wifi for his office what would be best?
1) Keep it as is, or
2) Reconfigure it to run through the WNR2000/1000 on an separate private wireless network as the router is supposed to support multiple SSID's (thinking this might just increase his range of his office network for his use in the future)

Regarding the coverage issue depending on what the range increase of these routers would be I was thinking of just setting up maybe 2 WiFi repeaters to extent the coverage area at the end of the day. I was initially look at getting the Dlink DAP-1150 but see now the WNR1000 is cheaper than the Dlink so that might be a better option for the repeaters, as there are two spots in his cafe that is outside of his current wifi range that needs to get covered. So I might end up needing to get 3 units to cover the whole area unless I can get away with only 2 or an ambitious 1 but that is doubtful.

How big is this guys coffee shop? I'm picturing your typical Starbucks or something - which isn't very big. If your current router isn't covering that, then it's pretty junky.

Just to clarify - the ADSL model has a built in router w/ Wireless, correct? Something to keep in mind, then, is that it's already performing the routing functionality. If you plug in a cable from the modem into your new routers WAN port, it may not work. You may just have to plug it into the standard ethernet ports. Just something to keep in mind.

As for the WNR1000 not supporting multiple downloads simultaneously, a little understanding on how Wireless N routers work might explain. Wireless N is basically a G with multiple antennas (it has some better algorithms too). The reason you get such high bandwidth from an N is that all those antennas are projecting that data, making it much more likely you'll get it (faster).

I am assuming the WNR2000 supports downloading music, video, and such over all the antennas, whereas the WNR1000 may only support it over 1 at a time.

Something else to remember is that if one of the coffee customers is running wireless G, the entire thing will default to that. So make sure to do all your range testing on Wireless G, since N isn't that popular (except in new devices).

Finally, you shouldn't need 2 repeaters, unless this coffee shop is like a huge warehouse.

If you need to boost it, I suggest you look at Engenius products. You can provide a cloaked repeater, and get amazing range. I used one to boost through a dual pane window, about 40-50 feet, then through a garage door once.

If the Netgear supports multiple SSID's, then use that. I would suggest you don't broadcast the SSID for the private network.

Thenior wrote:How big is this guys coffee shop? I'm picturing your typical Starbucks or something - which isn't very big. If your current router isn't covering that, then it's pretty junky.

Well part of the problem is that the router isn't in the coffee shop itself but his other business that is just down the hallway, so to speak and that is from where I'll need to source it you see. Also his coffee shop has two sections, an indoor section and a garden section, the garden being the closest to the wifi source but just barely picking up a signal at its "fence" closest to the wifi source. Also note I only had an wifi enabled phone with me at the time to test the range but still some people will use their phones there so I thought use the weakest device to get an indication of signal strength. But yes still the range do seem very limited even in comparison with my home wifi setup.

Thenior wrote:Just to clarify - the ADSL model has a built in router w/ Wireless, correct? Something to keep in mind, then, is that it's already performing the routing functionality. If you plug in a cable from the modem into your new routers WAN port, it may not work. You may just have to plug it into the standard ethernet ports. Just something to keep in mind.

That's correct and you'll see that is why I mention it as a modem/router. I also spotted that the modem being a router itself might cause problems but won't it work if I were to disable the DHCP function of his router and use it solely as a modem then use the WNR2000 as the router and just rewire his wired network though it? That is if this router can do it, not sure of the model but it's a Marconi or something. I've checked my router's options and it gives me the option 1) Disbale 2) DHCP server 3) DHCP Relay Agent. I think I read something in my research where they mention you just disable the ones DHCP server and set the WNR to do it but now I'm not sure whether they said disable it or set it to pass through or something

Thenior wrote:As for the WNR1000 not supporting multiple downloads simultaneously, a little understanding on how Wireless N routers work might explain. Wireless N is basically a G with multiple antennas (it has some better algorithms too). The reason you get such high bandwidth from an N is that all those antennas are projecting that data, making it much more likely you'll get it (faster).

I am assuming the WNR2000 supports downloading music, video, and such over all the antennas, whereas the WNR1000 may only support it over 1 at a time.

Something else to remember is that if one of the coffee customers is running wireless G, the entire thing will default to that. So make sure to do all your range testing on Wireless G, since N isn't that popular (except in new devices).

Noted as the most people here won't even know what Wireless N or even G is. To them wifi is wifi

Given that there won't really be a speed benefit to him at this point of going with the WNR2000 vs the WNR1000 I might just go with the WNR1000 then or is there an significant range difference between them. Also the other reason I'm hesitant of going with the WNR2000 at this point is I found lots of people complaining about it dropping the internet signal or wifi due to some issue that seems to be related to it's firmware. I still need to go check what the verdict is on the WNR1000 thou.

Thenior wrote:If the Netgear supports multiple SSID's, then use that. I would suggest you don't broadcast the SSID for the private network.

Yes the Netgear supports multiple SSID's and the advise regarding the private network is noted. Silly question thou, if it's not broadcast-ed to you connect to it via setting up a link in the OS to that specific network so that when the device enters it signal it will automatically connect to it or something. Sorry but haven't experimented with wifi setups that much, most common setting around here is to setup a strong password in WPA/WPA2 and broadcast the SSID and leave it at that

Yes, you will definitely want to disable DHCP on the modem - though again, you may need to plug the modem into a normal ethernet port on the Netgear router. I don't understand enough about modems w/ router functionality to know for sure, other then one of those options should work (the WAN port or a ethernet port).

As for the non-broadcasted SSID, basically you just tell the computer what the name of the SSID is, what the key is, and to connect even if the network is not broadcasting. Pretty straightforward in Win 7 / Vista.

You could even have it broadcast the SSID, connect all the computers to it, make it so they connect even while not broadcasting, then shut the broadcasting off on the router.

This is what the window looks like in Win 7 / Vista:


Also, I mentioned using an EnGenius router for repeating. They have some simple devices that are made to only act as a bridge/repeater, and their tech support is excellent. They walked me through the entire process of setting up a wireless network with the router once.

Thanks Thenior I'll check if there is any local suppliers of EnGenius gear.

A bit of a side request and not directly related to this setup. I'm looking at expanding the range of my personal wifi setup as well thus my willingness to help this guy out as I can test the gear I get for him first to see if it will fit the bill before getting it for myself

Anyhow my question is this:
It was mentioned that the wifi will drop to the lowest denominator if a G rated device links to the N rated router/AP
If the router/AP supports multiple SSID's would it be possible to setup two wifi connections from one unit;
One for N rated devices and one for G rate devices so that the N rated device will be able to run at the full N rated speeds and the G rated devices will run on the other wifi connection at G rated speeds without dropping the whole setup to G rates?
Or will you need to run two separate AP's in conjunction with each other to have a N rate AP and a G rate AP?
I'm asking this as my dad has a laptop with G rate wifi and my cellphone is also just G rated but I'm planning on getting my own laptop that will be N rated and would like it to be able to link up on the wifi at max rating on the local network without being hindered by my dad's laptop of my cellphone that is on the wifi 24/7 because they will cause the network to drop to G rates if I understand it correctly.

Thanks

Something to think about. G is 54Mbps, N is 300 (theoretical). If all you are ever doing is web browsing, or even basic file transfers, you'll never come close to maxing out a G connection. So it may never be a problem.

Ultimately, I don't know if it can run a G and an N. I don't see why it wouldn't, but I am not familiar with multiple SSID routers.

well if all you need is the ability to send out wifi inside and out, pick up two of these guys. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6833164035

place one near the centre of the store interior and one at the centre of the store exterior (EG: over the entrance). Keep away from sources of water and large metal objects for best performance.

Guess the best would be to get an Router/AP that is multi SSID enabled and just experiment with that, I smell Guinea pig

Another question that is a bit off topic that came across my desk today was setting up long range WiFi.

The situation is like this:
Pretty soon a college and myself will get Tablet PC's to assist us in our out of office work.
The thing is if we want to get onto the internet out of office we will need to either use a mobile internet carrier via our cellphones but sadly they just charge to much to be a viable option in the long run. The thing is that the office might be to far from the location we work at out of office but my home ain't and was wondering if there isn't a way to extent my WiFi to cover this location (guessing it at round 2km from my home but not a direct line of site I will try and get the correct distance over the weekend thou). The other thing to remember is I can't setup and permanent AP at the location to do a point-to-point setup. I need to extend my WiFi to this location so that I can just use the Tablet's inboard wifi to climb onto the WiFi (off course once this is setup I will not broadcast the SSID anymore but have them connect to it even though its not broadcasted).

Any idea on what gear I would need to achieve this that I can look up on a bit.

Thanks

lol, took me a while to understand. You mean colleague right, not college?

By not a direct line of site, does that mean you'd have to go through a few trees, or through some buildings? Either way, you can definitely do it, but it's going to be a lot cheaper if you only have a couple obstacles.

You're going to want a antennae on both ends (sending and receiving) - since even though you're table may be able to pickup the signal, it is very unlikely it can send a decent signal back. You need the solution to not be permanent, right? So you can just set it up and take it down?

I'll look into it some more - let me know what your distance is.

Haha my bad, yes colleague not college. English ain't my first language but still can't believe I missed that

The direct line of sight is a bit of a tricky part I'll have to check exactly what all the obstacles from the most likely transmission point will be in the daylight tomorrow but the house is a bit lower than the off site location but visible from the roof with some trees and maybe a building depending on the transmission point. I'll check if I can't take a photo and then post it so that you can see for yourself.

I do know a while back some company here made a bit of a blunder with their wifi setup (but have corrected it) that was roughly the same distance if not more than what I'm referring too now with less line of site and I was able to connect to their wifi and internet as they broadcasted it as an unsecured connection with no password and I used a laptop with it's build in wifi to just connect to it without additional means. If I could achieve a similar result but just make the wifi a secured connection I think it would do the job I will require of it.

FireFox wrote:The thing is that the office might be to far from the location we work at out of office but my home ain't and was wondering if there isn't a way to extent my WiFi to cover this location (guessing it at round 2km from my home but not a direct line of site I will try and get the correct distance over the weekend thou). The other thing to remember is I can't setup and permanent AP at the location to do a point-to-point setup. I need to extend my WiFi to this location so that I can just use the Tablet's inboard wifi to climb onto the WiFi (off course once this is setup I will not broadcast the SSID anymore but have them connect to it even though its not broadcasted).

Any idea on what gear I would need to achieve this that I can look up on a bit.

Thanks

geez, if you're talking these kinds of distances, you're better off connecting through a wired ISP to send/recieve to where you work. Ranges of the kind you're talking about reuqires a dedicated point-to-point installation, high gain antennae and some heavy duty equipment.

Okay let me clarify this a bit.

I've got wired ADSL at my home and at the office. The off site location is our court and their is no way they will allow me to setup anything permanent there nor am I willing to do that as the stuff will just vanish without a trace That said they will not have a problem if I us my portal devices there but on my own connections as they do not have public access points to the internet only for internal use and as I state before our mobile carrier option is there but in the long run it will cost to much as their mb/buck rate is just ridiculous when comparing to my uncapped wired account I can use if I can get the signal to the location.

That said I quickly used google maps to get a better guesstimate of the distance and my 2km was way off. (What can I say I'm crappy at spelling and guessing distances) Plotting a route from my house to the point marked in the screenshot below is 850m via the roads so the direct line will be even less. I'm now putting it at 500m so that will significantly change things I think. Also I've marked the line of site I'm looking at using with a red line. Hope this helps you guys to better understand the situation and for a lack of a better phrase give you a better picture

I contacted a company I've worked with before. They recommended http://www.radiolabs.com/products/wirel ... bridge.php.

The 20miles is line of site, so hopefully 500m would be ok non LOS. You could put a wireless router on one end to get your SSID, or just plug in via an ethernet port.

They are fairly mobile I guess - may want to make some kind of tripod or something.

Did some more digging as I really do not want to (can't) setup an AP at the off site location and will be limited to the build-in wifi of the tablet pc's. If I'm able to just get my internet shared to that location to access my emails and the internet for quick searching and access to my research sources or even remote controlling/dialing into my office/home setup I'll also be happy.

I've found this article that might be relevant to both setups at the end of the day. The way I understand it is that with this firmware installed you can effectively boost your router/AP's output that stock on most device would be 28mW to 70mW or even 100mW safely (max of course being 251mW ). Doing that and maybe get a compatible Router/AP with a good dBi antenna or upgradable antenna's might work? For instance the hotspot setup might then just require me getting one device to cover the whole area and on the second setup I referred to I might get that 500+ meter range and if all else fails I've at least covered all the dead spots in my home wifi .