DescentBB

And to think Pelosi had control of congress at one time:

"And we have to confer with the Qataris, who have told me over and over again that Hamas is a humanitarian organization," she told CNN's "State of the Union" with Candy Crowley.

Yup, there you have it. Hamas is not really a terrorist group but gives aid to the needy. I guess all those rockets they fired at Israel were loaded with food and medical supplies.

Just think, if the Dems win control of the house Pelosi will once again be the head of it. Why is that not a comforting thought?

of course, Hamas serves a lot of roles. They are a political, social and military entity, with somewhat different branches(as noted yesterday, when the political branch deferred to the military branch for the cease fire call). Thus, once again, it isn't Pelosi who is stupid here.

and, this is yet another demonstration why the US should stay the heck out of the region. Woody has no grasp of the subtle realities, and wants to view Hamas as monolithic, as opposed to a more complex organization. Same issue arises in Lebanon, with Hezbollah, who are very similar. And, so on through the region. Spare those folks the clueless Americans and let the locals sort it out.

I sense another circling of wagons by slick

no circling. What you said about Pelosi's comments was both wrong and stupid.

“Hamas is a humanitarian organization”

Now say that back with a straight face.


Yea...just like the Red Cross.

Spidey wrote:“Hamas is a humanitarian organization”

Now say that back with a straight face.


Yea...just like the Red Cross.

in that region, Hamas might be the only provider outside the UN agencies for education, health support, food aid, etc. Not that such is exactly a bargain for the locals, but it IS the reality. That you cannot see or grasp that once again illustrates why America and Americans need to stay out of the region's disputes.

"how can an intelligent, functioning, aware human being willfully ignore the fact that Hamas is putting it's own children in the line of fire and wanting them to die?"

slick you should be ashamed of yourself...I dont think you are, and that is sad...but you should be.

Any second grader has learned to understand the 'subtlety' of a situation better than you just did. Just because (accepting your premise on face value here)... just because Hamas might be the only thing in the region that has a common characteristic with the Red Cross doesn't mean a reasonable person would equate the two!

A deer hunter who baits deer with corn on the ground before putting an arrow through it's heart is not 'like the humane society', although, technically, they both do feed animals.

No, the only kind of person who would turn reality on its head so poorly as you just did and try to say Hamas is like the Red Cross is someone who wilfully serves themselves up as a total stooge for a loopy democrat Congresswoman.

ITT: People who think they know how politics in Gaza work.

When the 'politics' of a group walk like a terrorist, quack like a terrorist....

keep it up. Every post illustrates further why Americans shouldn't be messing in the area.

This does make me question the line between a government waging war and a terrorist group. We're (the US) just wrapping up a highly controversial war... and at the same time we do lots of humanitarian stuff out in the world - so is the US government a humanitarian organization, a terrorist organization, or a governmental organization? If I'm going to further draw parallels... if we ended up with an invading force in our territory (or shooting rockets into our territory) you bet we'd play "dirty" and would be stockpiling weapons all over the place...

Here's where I think the parallels break down: If the US government had decided to go shoot some rockets at the Soviet Union during the height of the cold war, and they had retaliated with nukes aplenty, I don't think anyone would have been saying "oh those poor US citizens." If your government goes and stirs up a hornets nest, or your government sanctions a group whose aim is to stir up the hornets nest, then doesn't it fall on you at some point to hold your government accountable? And, if you're choices are bad, worse, or leave... then maybe you should consider leaving.

I (sort of) get it that things are complex over there, and that culture is very different, and that the people of Palestine may feel that Hamas is their best option... but there's a price to picking Hamas as your leaders, and the price is being realized now. At some point, if you're willing (as a nation/people group) to fight a war for your land, you have to face a effects of losing that war.

I do tend to agree with slick, though - we should just stay out and let them duke it out.

I think so too Snoopy. I'd love to see that again!

snoopy wrote:I (sort of) get it that things are complex over there, and that culture is very different, and that the people of Palestine may feel that Hamas is their best option... but there's a price to picking Hamas as your leaders, and the price is being realized now. At some point, if you're willing (as a nation/people group) to fight a war for your land, you have to face a effects of losing that war.

Has anyone noticed the 1.8 million residents of Gaza are blockaded and literally confined to an area the size of a small city with all of their resources controlled by Israel? Has anyone noticed that many of these people have sparse electricity and utilities if they have any at all? Have you noticed that the full military might of the Palestines trapped in Gaza consists of some of the shittiest rockets in existence? I mean, these things don't even have warheads. They simply crash wherever they land with a thud, and no one knows where that will be because there are no guidance systems or engine control. Has anyone noticed they are launching everything they have, which is practically nothing, against one of the strongest militaries of the world, one with nuclear capabilities, one who can flatten all of it's enemies in an instant?

Why do you think such an impoverished people would undertake this endeavor?

All these stupid comparisons like "if we launched missiles at the USSR" or "what if Mexico launched missiles at us" make no sense compared to the reality of the people who live in Gaza. Their land was forcibly occupied and they were subsequently imprisoned by people who give absolutely zero cares about peace or human rights.

All you idiots on this board with your anti-government "not gunna take my guns" crap, you all glorify these so-called heroes who stand up against the oppression of "The Evil Fed" yet none of you can put yourself in the shoes of Palestine?

Oh wait, "terrorists." Keep drinking the Jew Media Kool-Aid.

snoopy wrote:This does make me question the line between a government waging war and a terrorist group. We're (the US) just wrapping up a highly controversial war... and at the same time we do lots of humanitarian stuff out in the world - so is the US government a humanitarian organization, a terrorist organization, or a governmental organization? ...

Well, ask yourself this:
If the evidence was substantial to support it and the U.S. was accused of launching rockets into civilian population centers, kidnapping hostages and random terrorist bomb attacks upon civilians in an ongoing 'war' like situation. Would someone be anything other than completely dishonest in trying to marginalize the accusations of terrorism by saying the U.S. Government was a "humanitarian organization...like the Red Cross"?
I think simply calling them "dishonest" is a very generous euphemism.

vision wrote:...

Why do you think such an impoverished people would undertake this endeavor? ..

You should objectively pursue an answer to that yourself instead of building a false premise around it to support a point that isn't nearly as sharp as you think it is...

Are you aware of the number of good faith offers to greatly improve their condition that those impoverished people have turned down? Often only because they would be putting themselves in danger from their own leaders to accept it?
It isn't the 'cute little Palestinians with rocks versus the MEGA-Jew-Military-Monster-Machine spitting fire and cruise missiles' like some stupid cartoon.
For you to suggest it is, and your previous dumb act about who is pulling the strings of the puppet/martyrs, is just telling us you are drunk on some other brand of Kool-Aid.

Will Robinson wrote:Are you aware of the number of good faith offers to greatly improve their condition that those impoverished people have turned down?

If you are a good boy you can have a cup of pudding for desert!

Will Robinson wrote:you are drunk on some other brand of Kool-Aid.

This "other brand" you've never heard of is called objective truth. You probably wouldn't like the taste.

vision wrote:...
This "other brand" you've never heard of is called objective truth. You probably wouldn't like the taste.

As if you have ever tasted from that cup. Just like a little boy pretending to have experience he has only heard about.

vision wrote:Why do you think such an impoverished people would undertake this endeavor?

This may come as a complete shock to you, but there is a better way.

(one that actually works)

Spidey wrote:This may come as a complete shock to you, but there is a better way.

(one that actually works)

Total and complete submission to Jewish rule?

No

callmeslick wrote:
in that region, Hamas might be the only provider outside the UN agencies for education, health support, food aid, etc. Not that such is exactly a bargain for the locals, but it IS the reality. That you cannot see or grasp that once again illustrates why America and Americans need to stay out of the region's disputes.

Try grasping this. Look up how much concrete went into building the tunnels that the Palestinians built and then ask your self how many schools/hospitals/bomb shelters could they of made instead. Then try and grasp this:

And if you are among the tens of thousands of political idiots who spent last weekend demonstrating in support of Hamas—now that the Khmer Rouge isn’t fashionable—it may also be useful for you to know that while Gazans languish in poverty, Hamas’ bosses are living large; Haniyeh, for example, bought 27,000 square feet of beach-side property a few years ago for $4 million, pays for his children to study in Europe, and sends his family members to hospitals inside Israel—all good choices, which he ensures are not available to anyone in Gaza who isn’t a high-level member of his fundamentalist political cult.

Seems to me the only one benefiting here and receiving humanitarian aid is Hamas leadership. I bet you won't see one of their family members body laying in the street. But what the hey, if you want to think the average Joe blow on the street is anything more than a pawn to the Hamas elites, that's your prerogative. I bet at one time Mussolini was considered a humanitarian figure also.

callmeslick wrote:keep it up. Every post illustrates further why Americans shouldn't be messing in the area.

I fully agree. Lets start with Obama and Kerry first and then work down from there.

As of July 29th Israelis have killed 374 freedom-hating Hamas terrorists! Hurray!


Edit: Oops! I meant women and children, not terrorists.

It’s amazing how many people have taken sides and can only see that side of this.

Simply amazing!

Spidey wrote:It’s amazing how many people have taken sides and can only see that side of this.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm against both sides, but in this case it is important to point out all the unwarranted ass-kissing of Israel and remind people of reality.

I see it a little differently. It all goes back to who throws the first punch. Whoever starts the fight is the one to blame. This is all reminiscent of the guy everybody on the block wants to beat up. After he lowers the boom on them and beats the piss out of all of them, somehow he's the bad guy. Let's put it this way Vision. Let's say initially you try to make a friend but they refuse. As time goes by, you continually offer up acts of friendship only to get rocks thrown at you. After awhile, you get fed up and that person you initially tried to make friends with bucks up, you just slap the piss out of him everytime. I realize this is the most simple way I can put this but that is exactly what happened. Everyone is trying to make judgments based on the current events without any consideration of the frustration Israel has felt from the very beginning. Not to mention that every single nation over there don't even recognize their existence. You back somebody against a wall like that, their gonna get mean. They have to.

vision wrote:

Spidey wrote:It’s amazing how many people have taken sides and can only see that side of this.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm against both sides, but in this case it is important to point out all the unwarranted ass-kissing of Israel and remind people of reality.

exactly my point, coupled with the further extraction that we have no real reason to get involved with the region. When will the US citizenry get it?

vision wrote:

Spidey wrote:It’s amazing how many people have taken sides and can only see that side of this.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm against both sides, but in this case it is important to point out all the unwarranted ass-kissing of Israel and remind people of reality.

Considering that only a few posts ago you were pushing a pro-Palestinian, anti-Isreal position, I can see how someone might "misunderstand."

flip wrote:Everyone is trying to make judgments based on the current events without any consideration of the frustration Israel has felt from the very beginning.

How far back do you want to label "the very beginning?" How about that time thousands of years ago when the Jews violently conquered the lands around what is today known as Israel, resorting to genocide and killing not only mothers and children (virgin girls were sold and raped), but also livestock -- then wrote a book claiming a Skygod granted that land to them, padded it with a lie about being persecuted by Eqypt, and distributed the propaganda around the world (a copy is in almost every American home)? That beginning is as good as any, right?

Lol, why do you always have to be obtuse? I'd think reasonable people could agree the beginning as it pertains to modern civilization and try not to carry it back to the stone age!

flip wrote:I'd think reasonable people could agree the beginning as it pertains to modern civilization and try not to carry it back to the stone age!

If that is the case then surely a reasonable dividing line would how Palestine self-identified for hundreds of years as part of the Ottoman Empire before British colonization in the early 20th Century. The majority of people in pre-Israel Palestine are Arab Muslim and have been for the duration of what you imply by "modern civilization." Modern civilization did not start on 1947 with the creation of Israel.

No, but the issue at hand did.

flip wrote: No, but the issue at hand did.

Yup. And the creation of Israel is one of the biggest mistakes in history.

losing a war has consequences. when you lose one people living under your protection lose everything sometimes. your borders get erased, etc. 'Palestinians' of old lost out a long time ago.
The Jews have the current right to draw the borders and have been as reasonable as they will with regard to that. It's time for the rest of the world to accept the facts or go to war to earn the right to erase the borders as Israel has drawn them, etc.

Since it appears like some people ARE going to war with them I don't think it makes any sense for any of us to react as if this is an improper reaction on their part to engage in the war. As if we somehow hold a contract to distribute Israels autonomy to them in pieces as we see fit.
We are creating an artificial perpetuation of a war. So long now that the children on both sides have been born into a 'feud' status quo. And on top of that it is fueled by religion! You think John Kerry can invite these factions to a table in Paris and work this out?!? Please! He isn't qualified to serve them refreshments!

what 'war' did the Palestinian Arabs lose, Will?

callmeslick wrote:what 'war' did the Palestinian Arabs lose, Will?

You missed the 'under protection' part.
For one example, vision cites the Ottoman Empire as some kind of proof of status....

Status revoked.

More recently Israel has defeated its neighbors who sponsor/protect the Palestinians claim (actually they are quite involved in holding that claim on 'behalf' of the Palestinians) to the point they dictate to the Palestinians what terms they may and may not accept.

The right to draw the borders is in the Israelis possession.

Ah yes, the "might makes right" argument. It's a great way to make friends!

vision wrote:

flip wrote: No, but the issue at hand did.

Yup. And the creation of Israel is one of the biggest mistakes in history.

Tell that to the diaspora of Jews who live in Israel.