Heel and Toe?

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:57 pm

Who drives a manual ("stick shift" I think you call 'em)? I know that's a tough question, because most of you frilly-girl's blouses drive Auto's - which sucks - unless you're in a V12 Daimler or a Porsche 928...

But I have to remember that stick shift is an option in the USA, whereas 90% of cars in NZ are manual transmission. (In fact, if you sit your drivers licence test in an Automatic, you aren't permitted to drive a manual car here!)

Anyway, of you small percentage of stick shift drivers - who uses the "Heel and Toe" control technique? I've been using it for about 10 years now - and it often confuses passengers, who ask; "How can you brake, change down AND rev the engine at the same time?" I always say the same thing: "Magic".

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:15 pm

I chose an auto just because I hate em in stop and go driving, which is 90 percent of what I drive in.

Now if I had a sweet little sports car then yeah stick me regardless of traffic.

I engine brake a lot with manuals.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:17 pm

I use it for downshifting, when the pedal placement allows it.

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Vindicator · Post by **Vindicator** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:19 pm

I do! I've been looking around for a newer car, in fact, and one of my requirements is that it has to be a 5 speed. Probably less than 2% of all the cars I've looked at (and I've looked at quite a few) are stick shifts.

Apparently I'm in the minority. Bastages dont know what theyre missing.

The only time I really heel and toe is during really fast driving on backroads, I normally don't bother with it in urban driving.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 4:32 pm

Only necessary when I'm stopped at a light pointing uphill.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:59 pm

Yeah - in US-city-type traffic, you really want an auto I guess. Stop-start sh!t is designed to drive you insane in a manual!

I've got nothing against autos per se - but the problwm with most Autos is that the manual version of the car is leaps and bounds better! Take the Nissan 300 for example: A great car in manual, but a dead dog as an auto!

I tend to "hold" autos when I drive them. Especially when decelerating or cornering. Unless an auto is VERY good (Daimler. Porsche) then I don't like the diea of getting a kick-down at at inopportune moment when the torque is at max and I'm cornering hard.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:22 pm

I have one of each. In the manual I use heel and toe all the time. Actually since I have rather wide feet I tend to use the inside of my right foot for the brake and the outside for the gas. It work rather well.

LunchBox · Post by **LunchBox** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 6:29 pm

Did you say Nissan 300

I have one of them 1991 300zx TT 5Spd stage 4+ right now.. Nothing more fun than heel and toe on the winding roads around here..

Box

bash · Post by **bash** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:03 pm

Unless you're on a track, I don't understand the purpose. It will only wear out your brakes (and often clutch) sooner.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:44 pm

My cruiser bike is manual shift but I don't have to worry about heel and toe shifting

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Arial" size="3">Originally posted by bash:
Unless you're on a track, I don't understand the purpose. It will only wear out your brakes (and often clutch) sooner. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true, if done right you actually save your clutch, throw-out bearing and tranny syncros, mainly because you're matching engine speed and tranny input shaft speeds, hence the syncros don't need to do as much work. Plus it's so cool when you pull it off, the shifter just drops in.

For a REAL challenge, try shifting without a clutch, up AND down.... no you better not, it can take your trany out if not done right.

roid · Post by **roid** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:27 pm

we have confusion about what "heel and toe" is.

- it's either a method of hill starting without the use of the park brake, or
- compression braking, or
- a clutchless method of changing gears by simply manually matching engine revs to the gear in question before engaging.

so which is it?

(haha "engaging" has 3 Gs, it is the most amazing word of teh thread!)

Vindicator · Post by **Vindicator** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:32 pm

Its a method of downshifting (or starting on an incline) in which you have the heel of your right foot modulating the brake and the toe of your right foot working the gas while your left foot works the clutch. In fast driving it gets the car in the right gear for the corner exit, and in normal driving it just sounds cool

(btw i too prefer the toe on the brake, heel on the gas method... just couldnt get the hang of the normal way)

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:52 pm

Actually, the normal way is toe on the brake, and heel blipping the gas. This because very few cars have floor-hinged brake pedals (Thank God!) and your heel will simply miss the brake!

Getting used to pidgeon-toeing your right foot takes a while, and when you first start using the technique you find yourself being very jerky on the brakes while not matching engine revs too well.

Toe-on-brake is best I feel, because the important part of the equation is "BRAKE" not "Match revs". Traditionally, racing drivers use the technique, and they are using it with 100% braking effort - no margin for error! Blow it, and you're progessing directly to the scene of the crash - rapidly.

It's baloney that Heel and Toeing can damage any part of your car. The simple fact of the matter is that it protects your hardware, is safer, quicker and more comfortable for passengers.

You should practice on wide open, EMPTY roads, and on a straight road. And remember the golden rules: "Brake on the straight - before it's too late." and "In slow and out fast". Or in my case: "In fast, and out even faster!"

Don't EVER attempt to change gears mid corner unless you are already past the apex and the car is NOT on the limit.

Scorch · Post by **Scorch** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:07 pm

I'm driving an auto for now, but the next vehicle I buy (which will be very soon) has to be standard (manual for those of you not in upstate NY). It's what I learned on, and I love it. Autos are so... boring and I hate not having full control over the engine and transmission.

I, however, do not employ the heel-toe method. I quite simply never learned, although I probably will when I buy my new truck. I'm concerned that I won't have the required dexterity and coordination for it. As for stopping on uphills, I always just held the vehicle in place by feathering the clutch and gas. I've heard this wears out the clutch faster, though...

bash · Post by **bash** » Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:47 pm

No one said anything about *damage* so I'm not sure where that came from. I'm talking wear. Brake wear in particular. The reason for heel-toe is to minimize how often and how far the engine drops below maximum-torque rpm through curves (where one spends the most inertial energy), hence never removing your heel from the accelerator so you can always modulate rpm to rev match when engaging lower gears while hard braking into a curve, all the while keeping the engine spinning at it's optimal rpm to minimize energy loss and have maximum power on tap for when it's time to accelerate again on the far side of the apex. For me that would mean driving at a near constant 8300 rpm (which I do at the track) but to suggest that running around town to pick up some milk screaming like a banshee at 8300 rpm won't 1) wear your vehicle sooner than a less frantic style of driving and 2) won't get your license revoked, well, then you have some wonderful roads, incompetent police and interesting physical laws in NZ.

But, hey, each to his own. It's your car.

Oh, and I disagree, the important part is rev matching.

If you don't match, all that energy is taken away from smooth, balanced, forward motion and tossed about among the corners of the car. Wasted. That can also break the tires loose if you're already near the limit of your grip on the road. And before you tell everyone h/t a better way to drive, take note that usually only sportscars have the pedals placed and designed to properly and comfortably h/t drive. The reason for that is h/t is primarily a racing technique. I couldn't do it in my Pathfinder. Feet just ain't that big.

To try to would be inviting disaster.

A better explanation than either Mobius or I provided...

Oh Heel Yes!

And ignore the *pedal* on the left in the diagrams, that's a deadpedal (fancy name for footrest) that's found in many sportscars (mine has one

) so you have some place to rest your left foot other than the clutch pedal. Also, you can see in the diagrams the little angled area on the inside of the accelerator to assist heel-toe driving. That's what I mean about it being easier to perform when it's designed into the car. One final thing (and I'm sure that site goes into it). it's not really heel-toe, it's heel-ball of foot when properly done.