Escalation

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:00 am

So the Minute Man project seems to be heating up. As you may know the MM are going to patrol the Arizona border. Here is what the criminal crowd is proposing:

"NACO, Ariz. -- Members of a violent Central America-based gang have been sent to Arizona to target Minuteman Project volunteers,"

"said he has been told that California and Texas leaders of Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, have issued orders to teach "a lesson" to the Minuteman volunteers."
So what bothers MS-13? There are already U.S. border guards patrolling the area. What effect of a few hundred civilians patrolling the area have that concerns gangs crossing the border? Do the criminals have things worked out so that the regular border patrol agents are of no consequence? If so...why?
Or is it just hype? Much like President Fox calling the patrols "illegal". Lets see how much the press will play this event up.

http://tinyurl.com/4ymsx

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:31 am

well i would have to venture a guess that the reason the civilians are patroling the border now is because the border patrol is on the gang's payroll. of course they wont be pleased. they'll either buy them, kill them, or scare them off within a few months.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:23 am

woodchip wrote:..Do the criminals have things worked out so that the regular border patrol agents are of no consequence? If so...why?...

I grew up playing on the border between Mexico and Texas. We used race our trucks, cars and motorcycles down the dirt roads that lead into Mexico. We would be heavily armed and raising hell all night long. We probably spent half of each night in Mexico and crossed the official "border" back and forth many times per night.

Of all those many nights over a period of at least 5 years that I was of driving age living there I saw illegals about 6 or 7 times and was stopped by Border Patrol once.

There is no Border Patrol in the sense that many people think there is, if they ever concentrate their manpower to become threat to the illegals in any area the illegals simply pick a new area to cross.

I attended the University of Texas at El Paso, it was on I-10 about 100 yards from the Rio Grande and I used to watch illegals crossing in broad daylight, walking across the river (a mere muddy strip with a puddle running down the middle). Once in a while you would see a Border Patrol vehicle swoop in and turn them back, usually not.

If those vigilantes aren't careful and there are gangs coming to confront them they won't ever see what hit them. Light and sound carry a long way in the desert at night. They damn well better be using some night vision and stealthy tactics or else...

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:41 am

b2 wrote:http://www.sierratimes.com/cgi-bin/ikon ... &topic=696

El Presidente Fox is sending 1,600 Federal Mexican soldiers up to the border meeting Cochise County, Arizona.

Can I get this confirmed? Anyone here know of Fox's plan to send troops to the border?

SHTF scenario down there if true, anyone?

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:52 am

Will Robinson wrote:There is no Border Patrol in the sense that many people think there is, if they ever concentrate their manpower to become threat to the illegals in any area the illegals simply pick a new area to cross.

I totally concur. I spent a few years riding motorcycles out in the desert between California, Arizona, and Mexico (right outside of Yuma). There were many times we crossed over into Mexico and the only thing letting us know that we had was a concrete marker. There wasn't a fence, a sign, or anything. There certainly wasn't any Border Patrol.

If one is motivated and properly equiped, crossing over into the U.S. from Mexico is rediculously easy.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:45 am

Dedman wrote:There were many times we crossed over into Mexico and the only thing letting us know that we had was a concrete marker.

That brings back some great memories!
Border Marker #1 sits on the corner of Maxico, New Maxico and Texas. You can piss in two countries and three states at the same time if you walk around it while you pee. Been there, done that, many times.

Last time I was there there was three telephone poles chopped down at chest height and a fourth, a new one, holding up the wire. the new one had more than a few .44 cal rounds pumped into it by yours truly, and the reason the others fell was because I wasn't the only one who used it to staple targets to.

I wonder how many pole stubbs are there today

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:07 am

Its a little different situation over here in AZ Will.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:44 am

I don't know the type of people that make up the group of vigilantes in AZ but if I had to guess I'd say it's the same type of loudmouth that hang around gun stores practicing their cliches, like 'They can have my gun when they pry it from my dead fingers'.

If that's the mental make up of the posse then I anticipate them standing around making too much noise and flashing too much light to be effective as anything other than targets.
Hopefully the illegals and their thugs will just avoid them.

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:46 am

LOL, I would argue that is the same type of thing I'd expect from texans. Suffice to say we probably have our fare share of that here too. However you hardly hear about it. What you do hear about is water stations being built so illegals don't die of dehydration out in the desert and a shuttle service that flies them back to mexico if they're caught. All privately funded of course.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:37 am

Drudge is reporting 500 additional federal agents are being assigned to the Arizona border. So mayhap some good will come of the Minute Man project.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:26 pm

The Minute Man Project began today:

Firsthand Report of Today's Minuteman Project Activities wrote:Posted on 04/01/2005 4:15:53 PM PST by Spiff

I just got back from Tombstone - this is a firsthand report of the Minuteman Project

I arrived around 9am(which was on the schedule as registration). I wasn't sure where exactly to go because the information I had just said downtown Tombstone. Once there it was obvious where to go. The news trucks with their satellite dishes were everywhere. Media types with video and still cameras swarmed the streets. Reporters with their surgically attached notepads crowded the sidewalks.

MMP volunteers were in line outside the building. At one time there was probably one media person for every one volunteer. Soon the numbers of volunteers swelled and it was a target rich environment for the media.

It looked like a good bunch of people. I knew some of them but most were from out of town. We waited forever with no news about what the delay was. Finally, they opened the doors and let in about 5 at a time for registration.

I know the organizers of the event and I offered to help them any way I can if they needed. While I was waiting in line one of the grabbed me and said "Help." They needed help at the registration table in order to process all of the volunteers faster than they were already doing. I was ushered in (I didn't have a registration yet or ID badge, but there I was registering everyone else).

Once I was there we got things really moving. There was some sort of computer glitch that had wiped out some people's registration and they didn't have their badge and paperwork in the file. We had to direct them 3 blocks over to the Tombstone Tumbleweed office to wait in line there for a full registration.

I was joined the room by Linda Muller and Bay Buchanan of Tom Tancredo's Team America PAC. Bay was to speak later and Linda had set up a booth for people to join the organization, buy T-shirts and bumper stickers, and just plain receive information about the group.

Once signing everyone in I had about an hour before the speakers would start and we would receive our orientation. I went down to the Tumbleweed office and registered and waited for my ID card. While there I heard something going on back across town (its a small town and you can hear stuff going on a couple blocks away). I left to investigate.

I went back to the building being used to assemble the volunteers and saw nothing at first. Then I saw a bunch of college-aged kids with ACLU Legal Observer printed in red - in English and Spanish - on their T-shirts. I approached one of them and said that I wanted to report vigilantism. I said that the MMP was only coming to the border to observe and to report any illegal activity to the proper authorities. I then told them that the ACLU was coming to observe the observers and report any illegal activity. And, since the ACLU considers the MMP to be vigilantes then the ACLU legal observers are vigilantes too because they're doing the same exact thing. The guy wanted to argue with me and then decided not to because he wanted to join the group's leader who was being interviewed by the press.

Just then I heard a bunch of drums thumping, horns blowing, whistles blowing, and pots and pans being banged. I look up the street to see 30-40 protestors coming our way. I ran up the street to check them out and many were Mexican - some were in indian dress for some reason. There were also a bunch of skanky looking college-aged kids with various offensive slogans on signs and T-shirts. One was wearing an Earth First shirt. I saw several anarchy symbols and such. I joined the marchers as they headed to the building and chanted loudly "Viva La Migra!!" They didn't like that and I was frequently rewarded with a metal pot being placed next to my ear and banged loudly. Ouch!

The protestors set up directly in front of the hall. I tried to engage other MMP types in the "Viva La Migra!" chant, but apparently most don't know what it means and were confused.

Those in indian dress did some funky indian dances and such. Most protestors had ear plugs in their ears so that they would not be deafened by their racket.

It was about then that they started ushering the first group of people in to hear the speakers. I didn't have an ID yet - one of the organizers let me in to the foyer but I could not get into the auditorium without a badge. Luckily, since I'd been registering people I had noticed that the organizer who had let me in had a badge on and I had seen an additional badge in the stack. So, he had a duplicate badge. I went over and snagged the additional badge, he knew I was doing it and didn't mind. That got me past the bouncers at the auditorium doors.

The room was full and this was just the first group of volunteers to hear the speeches. They had to let us in in groups because the hall would not seat all of us.

The speakers included Jim Gilchrist, Bay Buchanan, Rep. Tom Tancredo, Chris Simcox, Frosty Wooldridge, and AZ Senator Russell Pearce. The speeches were electrifying, bringing the crowd to its feet many times. Also in attendance were some Republican members of the AZ State Legislature (next to whom I sat). There was Sen. Thayer Verschoor, Sen. Russell Pearce, Sen. Karen Johnson and Sen. Jack Harper. Also there was Rep. Andy Biggs, Rep. Trish Gore, and Rep. Chuck Gray. Former Rep. Randy Graf was also there. And, let me tell you having sat next to them, they were some of the most enthusiastic members of the crowd. A great bunch.

Most of the political speakers focused on our unsecured borders and the government's responsibility to protect it under Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. President Bush's name was mud because of his support for amnesty and the name-calling he did last week (he called the MMP a bunch of "vigilantes" when he was playing grab ass with El Presidente Vincente Fox. The orientation consisted of Chris Simcox explaining that the whole world is watching and that no one is to do anything to bring discredit to the MMP. And that everyone should be law-abiding, respectful, professional, and keep an eye on the other volunteers to make sure that they're doing the same.

The rousing speeches ended and I found myself outside amid the din of the crazy protestors. I tried to carry on a conversation with someone right in front of the building rented for the MMP but it was impossible because of the noise. I grabbed one of the ACLU Legal Observers to file a complaint against the protestors and she laughed me off. I searched out another one and actually got him to write up a formal complaint. I explained that the MMP's freedom of speech and right to peaceable assembly were being infringed by the disrupting protestors. He wrote it all down and said he would see what they could do with my complaint. I urged several others to do the same thing - to file a complaint - and several did.

I was interviewed by several news reporters on camera and off. I was taped chanting "Viva La Migra!" to the protestors (which was akin to stirring a hornet's nest every time I did it).

At one time a German tourist came up and asked me if I was a "gunman". I had no idea what he was talking about. He finally explained that we were taking our guns to the border to shoot illegals. I told him that he was wrong. He then got in my face about a bunch of euro crap. He hated America (nice, then why was he paying to visit it?) and everything it stood for and did in the world. He brought up Iraq several times. I acted aghast that he was so upset that we liberated 26 million Iraqis. He whined about how we only care about ourselves. I explained that since he lived in Germany he should remember that if it was not for America he would still be living under Hitler's thumb today and that he should be respectful and grateful that we had the audacity to liberate Europe - to include Germany - from Hitler. I further explained that the entire world would be living under Nazi or Japanese dictators if it was not for America and that he better start showing us some respect. He said his grandfather had been a Nazi, etc. I wasn't getting anywhere with him so I left to check on my registration. There were still dozens of people milling around the Tumbleweed waiting for their registration to be complete, etc.

The press was still everywhere and I was interviewed and such everywhere I went. I met up with a reporter from the San Jose Mercury News and she asked me to arrange for her to see some of the trashed and devastated desert areas. She also wants to meet up with a rancher that has had problems with illegals and interview him and film the damage. I'm working on that for Sunday afternoon.

The protestors finally went home and I decided to call it a day. My daughter has a violin concert tonight and I hadn't even eaten lunch. Plus, I was pretty badly sunburned (ouch!).

I will be at the Naco rally tomorrow with my bullhorn, signs, and such. It should be great fun. If anyone plans to attend, please let me know.

Minute Man Project says "no" to extremists.

The Mexican army, predictably, is ready to be a pain in the ass:

KVOA wrote:The Mexican military is on stand-by. One unit has about a thousand soldiers. They're located just across the border.

Btw, Mexican troops entering America unfortunately happens to be nothing new.

"Americans in gun sights of Mexican army."

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:14 pm

I was out of town all weekend, I drove through Tombstone, saw nothing. Drove the entire I-10 stretch, through to Las Cruces. No minute men anywhere.

So any of you that are hoping that the Minute men get anywhere, you will be disapointed. They wont have the dicipline to keep this up on the required 24/7 cycle, nor cover near the geographical area required to even put a dent in this problem. I will bet anyone here that not one MM will still be there "helping us" once our Summer comes. Your article man is complaining about a sunburn....this...is...April!

Let's see how much they really care about this problem: up to 90 degrees? 100? 110? 120? I'll give them hella credit if we are discussing this in July, but we wont be.

Arizona is teh big, and Bush doesn't care. Sorry.

Pebkac · Post by **Pebkac** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:35 pm

The link.

Minuteman volunteers planned to start regular patrols Monday, fanning out across 23 miles of the San Pedro Valley to watch the border and report any illegal activity to federal agents. It's an exercise some law enforcement authorities and others fear could lead to vigilante violence.

It's a little early to declare failure considering that they don't move out in force until tomorrow. Whether or not they are successful, I applaud their efforts. Gooberman is correct, neither Bush nor any of his predecessors have been all that concerned about border security. If the project succeeds only at generating a greater awareness of the problem, then it will have served a purpose.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:10 am

First off Goob, then minute men only planned on a 30 day stint...not through the summer.

Second:

Participants in the Minuteman Project spotted the migrants Saturday near Naco as the volunteers were surveying the border to familiarize themselves with area. When agents arrived, they apprehended 18 people, Border Patrol spokesman Andy Adame said.

http://tinyurl.com/59ule

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:10 am

So from the two posts above, I've gathered that:

1. They are telling people where they are going to be.
2. They are going home in 30 days.

Yup, this will be effective. Woodchip, you know just as well as I that 18 people is just a spit in the ocean when it comes to how many are comming over.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:39 am

Gooberman wrote:So from the two posts above, I've gathered that:

1. They are telling people where they are going to be.
2. They are going home in 30 days.

Yup, this will be effective. Woodchip, you know just as well as I that 18 people is just a spit in the ocean when it comes to how many are comming over.

I think that, besides just a way to vent their frustration, this is a way to draw national attention to the ridiculous policy we have for border and immigration control.
You have to admit, when you examine what the law says and what we actually do to enforce it we come of like the U.N. pretending to contain Saddam Hussain.

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:13 am

I agree, but this wont solve the problem, its not even going to dent it. What will solve the problem is republicans holding their representatives responsible for what they do.

If politicians know that doing nothing will get them the Hispanic Vote, and if they know that they are in no way going to jeopardize your vote: then this open boarder policy is what we will have for a very long time.

You can clang pots and pans all day, but the only thing that will work is showing them that they have something to lose.

Bad@sskow · Post by **Bad@sskow** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:47 pm

What I think is funny is how they make them seem like the most respected people in american history with historical significance (the minutemen in revolutionary war).

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:33 pm

Bad@sskow wrote:What I think is funny is how they make them seem like the most respected people in american history with historical significance (the minutemen in revolutionary war).

Well, their first choice was taken...The Klan

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:48 am

New development.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=43754

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:39 pm

Quick fix for our border problem:

1. Give warning that anyone trying to cross is a criminal, and criminals will be shot.

2. Shoot.

The reason they keep trying to cross is because there is no consquence.

B-

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:36 pm

Actually, now that I think about it, it would be very difficult to shoot another human being for simply being somewhere they shouldn't. It would be heartless.
I propose that instead of shooting them, we force them to watch Alec Balwin movies ,read mobuis' posts and spend quality time with Eyerate.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:30 pm

Fusion pimp wrote:Actually, now that I think about it, it would be very difficult to shoot another human being for simply being somewhere they shouldn't. It would be heartless.
I propose that instead of shooting them, we force them to watch Alec Balwin movies ,read mobuis' posts and spend quality time with Eyerate.

You make the bullet sound inviting!

snoopy · Post by **snoopy** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm

It seems to me that either the mexican army or some sort of gang taking down any of the minute men would be political suicide. I would think that ultimately their goal should be to get both of the governments more serious about protecting the border. If the minutemen actually kill anyone, the government will have to get involved to shut them down, hopefully also causing illegals to be better watched (because our gov't is having to closely watch the minutemen. If any minutemen get killed, then the U.S. should go after who ever is responsible, resulting in an increased government presence around the border. It seems like whatever the outcome ents up being for the minute men, they win because they force the government to become more involved.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:05 pm

Yeah, let's kill them all

Mr. Sheepdog, eh?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:27 pm

snoopy wrote: It seems like whatever the outcome ents up being for the minute men, they win because they force the government to become more involved.

Which is exactly what good political activism accomplishes. The Minute Men are following exactly Ghandi's principle of non violent passive protest. Yet there are those on the left and the right who object to the Minute Men's form of action so I guess they (Minute Men) are being effective. Unlike the violent out burst of demonstrating liberal anti-war protesters, the Minute Men are quietly doing their job letting the hypster's raise all the ruckus.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:10 pm

BeoWOLF,

Nobody said I was a sheepdog.
Besides, you wouldn't have to take out too many, once the others heard the consequence, they'd stop coming.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:29 pm

keep the Mexicans out? US economy falls apart.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:33 pm

Zuruck wrote:keep the Mexicans out? US economy falls apart.

There is some truth to that. Many countries import cheap labor. For the US, it's Mexicans and to a smaller extent, those from South America.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:04 pm

Fusion pimp wrote:BeoWOLF

You have an objection to the myth of Beowulf or something?

These guys are smart. They're not going to be effective at all, but they've generated massive attention towards something that REALLY needs to be addressed. Good job guys.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:35 pm

keep the Mexicans out? US economy falls apart.

I seriously doubt that. The only impact it would have is property value would decline dramatically due to the yards going to hell.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:39 am

Fusion pimp wrote:
keep the Mexicans out? US economy falls apart.
I seriously doubt that. The only impact it would have is property value would decline dramatically due to the yards going to hell.

And the price of most of your domestically produced produce goes up. The cost of most of the restaurants goes up. The cost of housing goes up.

Many of them are here illegally yes, but they do serve a vital purpose in our economy.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:51 am

DCrazy wrote: They're not going to be effective at all,

After the first couple of days of the Minute Men being on the job, there have been no immigrants crossing in the MM sphere of influence. Just how do you catagorise success?

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:55 am

As to cost of produce going up, maybe parents will make their lazy game playing children go and work in the fields to make up the difference. Before you get all snippy at me, when I was 11 years old I went to work for the local produce seller picking beans, tomatoes, cukes and corn.

Dedman · Post by **Dedman** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:28 am

woodchip wrote:when I was 11 years old I went to work for the local produce seller picking beans, tomatoes, cukes and corn.

Which is why you are the qulity human being we have all come to know and love

I just don't see that happening on a large scale.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:07 am

Dedman,
I live in the heart of California Ag and many of my friends are 2-3 generation farmers, or children of farmers.They grow grapes(table and wine), Almonds, Mandarins and everything in between. Back in the 50's-late 70's there were lots of illegals in the fields. Now, it's just not so, at least not in California. INS makes their rounds at least monthly and sometimes weekly to check imigration status,working conditions, pay, etc.
Closing the borders would have very little impact on the ag. industry.
I'm all for INS reform.As it stands, becoming a legal is time consuming and far too costly for those that persue legal channels. I welcome any non- citizen who respect our laws and the will of the people enough to go through the proper channels.

To the rest, efff them.. they're leaches.

B-

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:49 pm

90% of the Mexican roofing contractors that I knew in my old job were illegal. People that did not want to pay union scale hired Mexicans to do the work. Woodchip, do you honestly think that in today's society, parents are going to make their kids pick fruit? That's one of those jobs that we all talked about before that no American "wants" to do.

You know, I'm surprised that you guys are for the minutemen. Hell, two years ago when Bush proposed his immigration plan, you guys were all for it, singing his praise. Now, you're on a different beat. Make up your mind.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:27 pm

Zuruck wrote:...Hell, two years ago when Bush proposed his immigration plan, you guys were all for it, singing his praise. Now, you're on a different beat. Make up your mind.

No exactly, if the workers could cross legally with a screening process then we could shoot the illegals who would still be using the desert crossings because only the criminals would be doing it

Over simplification I know but it shows how the two positions aren't really in conflict....well, except Fusionpimp, he wants to shoot all of them jk

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:59 am

Zuruck wrote: Woodchip, do you honestly think that in today's society, parents are going to make their kids pick fruit? That's one of those jobs that we all talked about before that no American "wants" to do.

I guess it is better that the kids play video games and sell drugs for a little extra cash.

Zuruck wrote:You know, I'm surprised that you guys are for the minutemen. Hell, two years ago when Bush proposed his immigration plan, you guys were all for it, singing his praise. Now, you're on a different beat. Make up your mind.

I'm not sure many of the conservatives here were for Bushs plan. Especially the part granting illegals blanket citizenship as a reward for coming here by surreptuous means.
Why shouldn't we be for the MM? I'm surprised you of all people Zuruck, would be against a nonviolent peaceful means of protest. The MM seem to have accomplished shutting off the inflow of illegals in their sector. Something the boarder patrol has failed to do. Instead of Bush calling the MM vigilantes, he should be lauding them for a job well done. Unfortunately Bush seems to want to take it "up where the the sun don't shine" by his friend Vicente Fox.

Escalation

Escalation

Re: Escalation

Re: Escalation

Re: Escalation