Vauss and ping times

[thwart]

Vauss seems to be the one most affected by high ping times. I notice sometimes with a ping of around 200 the door won't open in Stadium when shooting it with Vauss. Also I was playing someone in Coliseum and I couldn't hit him to save by butt with a 170 ping time. Now granted I am not the best aim to begin with but I went through all 5000 rounds and didn't hit him once. Unfortunately even with DSL I rarely get a better ping than 170. He had a ping time of around 75.

What is an acceptable ping for all the weapons to work properly?

[Krom]

Between 0 and 2 MS is acceptable.

[Top Gun]

Between 0 and 2 MS is acceptable.

Now that's just mean.

I'd have to say that you're doing pretty well if you're ping's consistently under 100. Mine usually hovers around 60-70, and the only problems I usually face with weapons use are when fighting people with the 300+ pings. Ping isn't the only component, though; you could have excellent ping but severe netloss, which also leads to unplayable conditions.

[thwart]

Ping isn't the only component, though; you could have excellent ping but severe netloss

I do remember seeing the network loss jump up every now and then.

Is it always the case that the one with the better ping will have an advantage? Say one at 60 and the other at 95?

[ArcherOmega]

In a purely technical sense, if all other technical assets are identical, better ping is an advantage. Competitively speaking though, the difference between 60 & 95 ping between pilots of equal skill is negligible.

[Krom]

In a purely technical sense, if all other technical assets are identical, better ping is an advantage. Competitively speaking though, the difference between 60 & 95 ping between pilots of equal skill is negligible.

I can very clearly tell a playable difference between 60 and 95 MS, if you can't then you aren't fast enough of a pilot for it to make a difference for you.

But seriously, between 0 and 2 MS...on a LAN, that is the optimal multiplayer condition. Nobody said "for internet play only".

[ArcherOmega]

I can very clearly tell a playable difference between 60 and 95 MS, if you can't then you aren't fast enough of a pilot for it to make a difference for you.

But seriously, between 0 and 2 MS...on a LAN, that is the optimal multiplayer condition. Nobody said "for internet play only".

Human reaction time is generally agreed to be in the 3 tenths of a second to 1.5 seconds range, even among Olympic champions, professional Formula 1 Racers, and Air Force fighter pilots. Theyâ??ll tell you that in ANY â??Driverâ??s Edâ?

[Top Gun]

Three-tenths of a second? I don't think so. Ever watched a top-fuel drag race? Those guys hit the gas mere milliseconds after the green light goes off. Krom is absolutely right; there is a difference between 60 and 95 ping, even if it's not necessarily a large one. Also, low ping doesn't always have the advantage; ever hear of an HPB?

[Krom]

It's not the reaction time, it's where you put a shot against a moving target and the shot still connects, basic leading a shot with MD or vauss, I can tell the difference in leading targets between latencies. It makes a difference against moving targets, the lower the latency the closer you put the shot to where the ship looks.

Also the lower the latency the tighter I can dodge things, 30 MS lower is like having half again as much room to dodge. I can also tell the difference in leading between 60 and 40 MS, and I can see the difference in game play between 40 MS and LAN play. When I am playing the game I can see 60-100 MS, I can sense the delay clearly, 40 MS is much closer to looking instant. I don't react that fast, I just see the difference in latency and know it's there.

I can also tell the difference between 60 FPS and 100 FPS in motion clearly, and that's 16 MS vs 10 MS, it has nothing to do with reaction time and everything to do with vision.

[ArcherOmega]

>TOP GUN-

AVERAGE reaction time is within the range I specified.

Krom is NOT an experienced competitive world champion drag racer. Hitting the gas throttle & shifting for a pro of that caliber within milliseconds is an anticipatory move based on experience, not a reactionary one. Thatâ??s why there are so many â??false startsâ?

[Starken]

I know I risk beating a very dead horse, but I sooo hate it when people give bad info.

People are quite capable of noticing changes in latency on the order of milliseconds

http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/ihh/s ... atency.pdf

I'll quote a choice line for the skimmers:

Results show that subjects are able to reliably detect [latency] changes definitely less than 33 msec and probably less than 16.7 msec.

[ArcherOmega]

I know I risk beating a very dead horse, but I sooo hate it when people give bad info.

And I sooo hate it when people misrepresent what I said. I did not say changes in speed cannot be "sensed". (We can all see the photoflash of a camera, which is in the millisecond range).

What I said was you cannot react to it effectively enough to make a difference.

[Lothar]

I did not say changes in speed cannot be "sensed". (We can all see the photoflash of a camera, which is in the millisecond range).

What I said was you cannot react to it effectively enough to make a difference. 8)

You can react quickly enough that the difference between a 60 ms ping and a 90 ms ping is significant. It's not that your reaction is actually taking place in the 30 ms in between, but rather, that your reaction is tuned to account for the 60 ms or the 90 ms.

It makes a real difference when you're flying. I can often tell the difference just by looking at my efficiency... at 60 ms, I do significantly better than at 90 ms if everyone else's pings stay the same.

[BUBBALOU]

It is real hard to argue or even dispute a statement with someone that only plays shaker levels with a 200ms+ ping against noobz like ArcherOmega ( in a Pheonix no less ). After a few LAN's with other real Descent players, then and only will his concept change...instead of googling for reasons

The rest of this thread will be meaningless banter if it does not go back on topic So......



-----------===== BACK ON TOPIC=====------------


in Ver 1.4 they neuterd the Vauss making it useless. unless you are on a LAN, and still then ver 1.3 was better

Go and play some of the Beta 1.5 and see that the Vauss was returned to pre 1.4 status. You will wish the final version of 1.5 is officially released

[ArcherOmega]

LOTHAR

My opinion is that you canâ??t MEANINGFULLY react to an event in the <30 millisecond range in a game environment. REACTION involves mental processing time, movement time, and device response time.

If you could MEANINGFULLY react to an event in that millisecond range, youâ??d be able to dodge bullets. That may be possible in â??The Matrixâ?

[WarAdvocat]

Archer, you're wrong.

1. Lower ping gives you that many more milliseconds to react. Significant in and of itself.

2. Lower ping means what you see has a much closer correspondance to what the server sees.

Just those two facts alone, without all the meaningless drivel about reaction time, makes a big difference.

Factor in the fact that higher latency generaly means more hops which means more opportunities for packet loss and you will see that you're oversimplifying things quite a bit.

I remember a year or two back, Barry (in CA) and Hemp (in FL) were playing a lot of D3 1 on 1's. From what I heard, Barry won most of the west coast games, Hemp won most of the east coast games, and games on central servers were pretty even.

What does that mean? Nothing really, except that ping advantages on the order of 30-50 MS are indeed significant (and therefore 'Meaningful') in skilled game play.

[quote="ArcherOmega"]If you could MEANINGFULLY react to an event in that millisecond range, youâ??d be able to dodge bullets. That may be possible in â??The Matrixâ?

[Hattrick]

speaking of reaction times, heres a lil test

.25 with left hand
.23 with right hand


man, am I getting old.

[WarAdvocat]

.17 left .13 right

[Krom]

.21 / .21 I just woke up.

Oh yeah, bunny, 30 MS latency in the game means 30 MS latency, it's the round trip time not just one direction.

Having a 60 MS ping instead of a 90 MS ping automatically removes an average of 30 MS from your reaction time in the game.

Also on the professional race driver bit is overrated, the same conditioned reaction happens when one of us fires the mass driver repeatedly instantly after the reload. The mass driver fires on release of the trigger, so often I start pressing down the trigger an instant before the reload and so I am releasing the trigger right when it is ready to fire so I get the maximum rate of fire from the MD.

Also you have to look at the ratio difference between latency, not the raw number. 30 MS at 200+ MS is pretty irrelevant because the ratio of change is so slight. 30 MS at 60-90 MS does make a difference because 90 MS is 1.5 times as long as 60 MS. Having that extra 30 MS can be very meaningfull, because latency is always added on top of your own reaction time, the lower the latency the lower your reaction time will be.

[WarAdvocat]

Whoops. Mistake corrected. Dunno why I always thought that was how it worked in D3. Common sense would dictate otherwise but... Maybe it's the 'wonderful' netcode. That's rather embarassing, regardless

[thwart]

in Ver 1.4 they neuterd the Vauss making it useless. unless you are on a LAN, and still then ver 1.3 was better

Can someone elaborate on this? Does anyone know exactly what they did? I don't seem to have a readme for the 1.4 patch.

[Krom]

Its been so long since I've played any version but 1.4 that I forget if Vauss was different before.

[Gooberman]

[quote]Reaction involves mental processing time, movement time, and device response time. So after you â??senseâ?

[ArcherOmega]

Lag is just a technicality at the 30 ms range. Iâ??ll approach this differently (though simplistically) on a 30 ms pulse cycle for about ¼ second. (Though Iâ??m not sure how a chart will show on the DBB editor) 2 Pilots, MD Attack Vs. Evasive Maneuvers

Millisecs...Pilot 1.......................Pilot 2
30.....>Decides to fire MD
60.....>Motor command goes
90.....thru synapses
120....>Physically fires................>30 ms lag
150....>Decides to fire MD................>MD Impact
180....>Motor command goes.......>Decides Fight-or-Flight
210....through synapses..............>Motor command goes
240....>Physically fires...............through synapses (P2- 30ms lag)
270.......................................>MD Impact before he can move
300.............................................>Afterburners kick inâ?¦.


Now letâ??s play this same scene again with NO lag

Millisecs...Pilot 1........................Pilot 2
30.....>Decides to fire MD
60.....>Motor command goes
90.....thru synapses
120....>Physically fires..................>MD Impact
150....>Decides to fire MD.............>Decides Fight-or-Flight
180....>Motor command goes........>Motor command
210....through synapses.................goes through synapses
240....>Physically fires.........................>MD Impact before he can move
270.................................................>Afterburners kick inâ?¦

With that short a latency, Pilot 2 gets hit twice with or without lag. You wouldnâ??t be able to react fast enough to make a difference.

[melvin]

now you're just making things up

[Krom]

I think I read the first two lines of that post and stopped reading to prevent this from happening to me:

[Darktalyn1]

Interesting thread

My reaction times

Left Hand
.203
.203
.219
Avg = .21

Right Hand
.203
.188
.156
Avg = .17

Even though people can have a reaction time of 200-500 ms, or whatever the range is, you still have to figure a 30 ms advantage in ping is still an advantage.

All things being equal (if both players have the same reaction time), the advantage is still there. The reaction times will cancel eachother out and the ping is the delta.

I too have noticed differences in playing between 50 or 100 ping, in fact I would say my MD seemed easily 1.5x as accurate when the ping started getting that low. Dodging was also easier. If my ping was low I could constantly eek my way by trifusion shots.

This was also obvious on the opposite end of things. I remember a lot of games playing Neutrino in a Burning Indika 3 server where he would get about 30 ping. There were a lot of shots seemed to be "splashing" off him (on my screen they were hitting) but I knew he was just squeezing by either avoiding them completely or maybe only allowing one fusion blob to clip his ship. He had just enough extra time to pull off some great dodges.

Oh yeah, the difference to me in monitor FPS made a HUGE difference to me when I bought a new computer and went from 80 FPS to about 200. I remember that was when I developed a good MD shot seemingly overnight. I went from almost never connecting to suddenly pulling off hattricks. I mean honestly I went from hating the MD to loving the damn thing - in fact I think my shot was the sharpest it had ever been the first couple months after I upgraded and hadn't yet gottens spoiled and lazy by the high FPS.

So, in short, I have to agree with Krom on this one.

[WarAdvocat]

Archer Omega, Just because you're very inventive doesn't make you right.

I think I read the first two lines of that post and stopped reading to prevent this from happening to me:


(see image above)

x2

[Gooberman]

Lag is just a technicality at the 30 ms range. Iâ??ll approach this differently (though simplistically) on a 30 ms pulse cycle for about ¼ second. (Though Iâ??m not sure how a chart will show on the DBB editor) 2 Pilots, MD Attack Vs. Evasive Maneuvers

Millisecs...Pilot 1.......................Pilot 2
30.....>Decides to fire MD
60.....>Motor command goes
90.....thru synapses
120....>Physically fires................>30 ms lag
150....>Decides to fire MD................>MD Impact
180....>Motor command goes.......>Decides Fight-or-Flight
210....through synapses..............>Motor command goes
240....>Physically fires...............through synapses (P2- 30ms lag)
270.......................................>MD Impact before he can move
300.............................................>Afterburners kick inâ?¦.


Now letâ??s play this same scene again with NO lag

Millisecs...Pilot 1........................Pilot 2
30.....>Decides to fire MD
60.....>Motor command goes
90.....thru synapses
120....>Physically fires..................>MD Impact
150....>Decides to fire MD.............>Decides Fight-or-Flight
180....>Motor command goes........>Motor command
210....through synapses.................goes through synapses
240....>Physically fires.........................>MD Impact before he can move
270.................................................>Afterburners kick inâ?¦

With that short a latency, Pilot 2 gets hit twice with or without lag. You wouldnâ??t be able to react fast enough to make a difference.

Yes but your completely ignoring the situation of

Millisecs...Pilot Redbone.......................Pilot Krom
30.....>Oh Shizzle, the mortar is launched
60.....>WTF, The Mortar, it didnt go boom
90.....OMG, tripple vauss king is here
120....>Straiff double slide up down flair
150....>Decides to uninstall d3................>SHOT FIRED
180....>Motor command goes.......>Oh ABout friggin time!
210....through synapses..............>"Krom has pushed the red button"
240....>Wtf, that was no where near! God I hate mortars...............through synapses (P2- 30ms lag)
270.......................................>Crown "haha, d3k is go gay, can I rejoin?"
300.............................................>k



So you can clearly see that we are right, and you are wrong.