Run no more

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:07 am

Florida is changing the law as to how one uses deadly force to prevent an attacker from harming yourself.
In Michigan where I live the law is to flee from a attacker if at all possible in lieu of simply pulling your gat and making daylight appear in the thugs worthless hide. I for one approve this change. If some punk doesn't want .45 caliber size orafices blooming all over his bod...then trod the straight and narrow:

MIAMI (AFP) - Florida's legislature has approved a bill that would give residents the right to open fire against anyone they perceive as a threat in public, instead of having to try to avoid a conflict as under prevailing law.

Current state law allows residents to "shoot to kill if their property, such as their home or car, is invaded by an unknown assailant."

But it also states that if a resident is confronted or threatened in a public place, he or she must first try to avoid the confrontation or flee before taking any violent step in self defense against an assailant.

http://tinyurl.com/72dg9

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:07 am

Sounds about right.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:24 am

Common sense prevails.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:00 pm

I'm troubled by the text "perceives to be a threat"...so where is the line drawn? If I took your parking space in a shopping center, you get out of the car and shoot me because I'm a threat? Hopefully, that was just a summary, I would think it has to be more clear than that.

Woodchip, do you carry a gun on you at all times? I mean, at ALL times??

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:25 pm

I agree with Zuruck. (That wasn't so bad, was it, self?)

The old law -- shoot to kill on your own property, but don't shoot to kill until after you've tried to flee in public, is a tiny bit too restrictive. In some cases, trying to flee or avoid the conflict will just make you dead.

But the "percieves to be a threat" language is a bit too vague. I hope the law is clearer than the news article. Some guy on the bus yesterday was yelling at the driver to hurry up and stop letting people on because there was no more space, and I told him there was space right next to him and he should shut up and let the driver do his job, and he responded like a fifth grader: "you want to make me shut up? Get off at the next stop." He kept threatening me even as he got off the bus. It sounds like under the new Florida law I could've capped him because I percieved him to be a threat (though not a very big one)... but it seems like the spirit of the law is that you should be able to cap someone in public only if avoidance or fleeing are not real options.

So, like Zuruck, I have to question the text "perceives to be a threat". Does the real law give a better explanation than that?

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:09 pm

Remember Lothar, i before e except after c.

After reading the yahoo news post again, I'm even more scared. The idea behind it is that criminals will think twice if they know people will shoot at will? It doesn't surprise me that the NRA is involved in this, I must read in the paper every other day about someone shooting another in traffic because of a dispute. People are so quick to pull a gun, next thing you know, people will be carrying Desert Eagles in their pockets and flash grenades on their vests. Common sense huh?

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:54 pm

Ok, but too many laws like these may put a dent in the "culture of life," sound bite that so many Republican senators are growing more and more fond of.

Skyalmian · Post by **Skyalmian** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:01 pm

Finally found the text of the bill. Here and here.

next thing you know, people will be carrying Desert Eagles in their pockets

Ignorance Meter going off... Desert Eagles don't fit in pockets.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:27 pm

Zuruck wrote:I'm troubled by the text "perceives to be a threat"...so where is the line drawn? If I took your parking space in a shopping center, you get out of the car and shoot me because I'm a threat? Hopefully, that was just a summary, I would think it has to be more clear than that.

Woodchip, do you carry a gun on you at all times? I mean, at ALL times??

Well I don't carry when I'm scuba diving...

but most of the time I do.
As to your parking space scenario Zuruck, that would be a class a big time felony. Read "threat" as reasonable indication your life is at risk. No you can not even pull back your jacket to expose your pistol in the parking lot scene as you would be arrested for "brandishing" (at least here in Michigan). Another thing is the possibility of being sued for your actions. So one has to be pretty clear on when you may pull a gat or when it is better left concealed.
I would suggest Zuruck you look into your states laws on carrying concealed and what it takes to get a license. Might be a eye opener on what your responsibilites to carry a firearm are.
As Xciter points out, a lot of the time just making it known you are armed is enough to deter a crime.
When I was 16 I had to point my 12 guage at a couple of Kentucky hillbillies trying to kidnap my friend and I. Surprising how fast them 'ole boys could disappear.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:46 pm

"Might be a eye opener on what your responsibilites to carry a firearm are."

Woodchip, you just spelled it out exactly. Responsibilities. Something that very few people in this world know anymore. Now, Florida is putting the life of someone in an armed person's hand who "thinks" he may be a threat. When does that person become a threat? Once punches are thrown? Before? Shoot and ask questions later? The gray area in this law is way too vast.

Scenario, A has something B wants. B shoots A and tells the cops that A was a threat. Common sense? Justice? Yuck.

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:07 pm

Zuruck, there would have to be credible evidence your life was in danger. Just saying "He called me teh suk" just won't do. To be licensed means you've taken classes and passed a test that indicate you know the difference between verbal abuse and a guy with a pipe in his hand coming at you.

Zuruck · Post by **Zuruck** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:49 pm

Understood Woodchip.

But, from what that law is stating, it's what people "perceive" to be danger. No witnesses, so we have a word against word and one of the participants is dead. And I don't think passing classes or tests indicates that someone is mature enough to be able to pretty much kill at will. Not convincing enough.

Lothar · Post by **Lothar** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:02 pm

Zuruck, read the text of the bill from Sky's link.

Testiculese · Post by **Testiculese** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:19 am

That's a blanket statement, Z, and you know it!

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:40 am

I just called Tallahassee and asked them to send me a Florida out of state concealed weapons permit.
That will make me legal in about 9 more states

Go Florida!

Genghis · Post by **Genghis** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:59 pm

Will Robinson wrote:I just called Tallahassee and asked them to send me a Florida out of state concealed weapons permit.
That will make me legal in about 9 more states

Will, can you save me some research time and tell me which states that includes and maybe a phone number or website I can check? If you don't wanna post it you could email me. Thanks!

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:24 pm

Genghis wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:I just called Tallahassee and asked them to send me a Florida out of state concealed weapons permit.
That will make me legal in about 9 more states
Will, can you save me some research time and tell me which states that includes and maybe a phone number or website I can check? If you don't wanna post it you could email me. Thanks!

^ x2

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:44 am

Thx Xciter.
Fla info - here