Console Wars V - The Xbox Strikes Back!

Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Admiral Thrawn** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:07 pm

After proudly owning the first xbox and loving it, I for one, welcome our new Gaming overlord system from Microsoft. Most likely, I'll own both consoles once the ps3 comes out, but the xbox360 will be a definite in my entertainment room due to the absolute fun of Xbox live. There are some things that I'm worried about in this next generation.

Here's why I didn't completely put my hopes on the ps3 and decided my next console system will be the 360.

1. It's coming out first. Sony has not yet released a date for it's console as of yet.

2. In the past, we've been burned by Sony and their marketing. Their specs on paper look good (twice as powerful as xbox), but we've seen this in the past and they haven't lived up to their expectations. (7 times faster than computers, etc...) Microsoft however, has been pretty honest in their stats which have been backed up AND demonstrated by developers. They are pretty careful not to overstate the capabilities of their box. I really do hope that it's more powerful or at least as powerful as the xbox though. And in that case, I will have both so that I can enjoy the exclusives on each system. Also, cross platform ports will have high quality graphics for both systems. A lot of xbox gamers have been frustrated by this and it'll be good to know that this will no longer be a factor.

3. Xbox Live - This has got to be the best online gaming service I've seen so far. Downloadable content, friends lists, cross game invites, quality sounding voice chat, and broadband only.

4. Ripping music to the hard drive for playing within the game.

5. Even though they announced that certain games on xbox can be played on the new system, I really don't care much for that. I'll just keep my xbox around (My tv has multiple high def inputs). Besides, I'll be playing new games anyway.

I'm curious as to what everyone else's choices will be as far as the new consoles are concerned. What will be your choice and why? And yes, I'm a graphics and sound quality whore.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Thu May 19, 2005 4:12 pm

Xbox - Basically everything you said.

Oh yes.

Halo 3.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:21 pm

I don't really care how pretty the graphics look; it doesn't affect my choice of games. I'm probably going to get a PS3, since I've owned the previous two incarnations. Right now, though, I'm most excited about the Nintendo Revolution. The ability to download twenty years of classic Nintendo games. Completely free online play, which blows XBox Live out of the water right there in my opinion.

Plus, the guaranteed new games from the classic Nintendo franchises. You can take your immensely overrated Halo; I want a new Super Smash Bros.

I'm already planning on picking up a GameCube, since I haven't had one previously; I won't touch an XBox, though, since there's absolutely nothing on it that interests me. If I want to play games online, I'll use a PC; I don't have any sort of network setup in my house that would allow me to hook up a console, even if I wanted to.

forwardtothepast · Post by **forwardtothepast** » Thu May 19, 2005 9:08 pm

Ill end up with the PS3, the xbox360 game lineup doesnt appeal to me and paying for xbox live, bleh. I also think Halo is over rated(please flame me). I also like how sony is keeping it backwards compatible

Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Admiral Thrawn** » Thu May 19, 2005 9:10 pm

Top, I used to think just as you did. But I actually opened my mind, and since then, I haven't looked back. To be honest, pc online gaming really just can't compare to Xbox live when you compare benefit to benefit. I don't mind the 60 dollar cost a year either, it's WELL worth it.

As far as games, the Halo series is rarely touched in my library. Forza, Mechassault, NFL 2k, and the Dead or Alive fighting series got me hooked. Of those, Forza is my current crack. I didn't think anything could actually beat Gran Turismo, but this one actually beats it out.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Thu May 19, 2005 11:36 pm

Im waiting on details on how MS intends to hinder file sharing from their hardware, if all games properly support the HID spec, and how well ATI can actually write drivers for this thing.

That being said - you need a high-def tv to get the most benefit over the current generation of consoles.

Releasing new hardware before 2007 might prove to be more of a detriment to sales than anything else - like how long it took between the introduction of colour televison to when all shows where being produced in only colour.

Its a 400 dollar investment for Ice - he's already got the fancy HDTV, for the rest of us, its much more expensive.

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Thu May 19, 2005 11:48 pm

There are the PC/Xbox/PS2 games and then there's Gamecube games. I'm sure the next incarnations will be the same way. I'll probably pick up a revolution, and maybe an xbox 360 further down the road.

It looks like the power differences between the xbox 360 and ps3 aren't going to be nearly as different as before, and the controllers are nearly identical now with the new xbox controllers having the shoulder buttons (replacing the white/black buttons) as well as their usual triggers. Or at least that's how the dev kit controllers are...

And if Soul Calibur 3 is PS3 only that's going to make me a sad panda.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Fri May 20, 2005 12:28 am

SC3 i heard was going to be on all 3

Buef · Post by **Buef** » Fri May 20, 2005 12:39 am

PS3 Specs wrote: PLAYSTATION 3 SPECIFICATIONS

CPU: Cell Processor PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
--1 VMX vector unit per core
--512KB L2 cache
--7 x SPE @3.2GHz
--7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
--7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
--*1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy
--Total floating point performance: 218 gigaflops

GPU RSX @ 550MHz
--1.8 TFLOPS floating point Performance
--Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels
--Multi-way programmable parallel Floating point shader pipelines
--Sound Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell-based processing)

MEMORY
256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz
256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz
System Bandwidth Main RAM-- 25.6GB/s
VRAM--22.4GB/s
RSX-- 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read)
SB2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)

SYSTEM FLOATING POINT PERFORMANCE:
2 teraflops

STORAGE
--HDD Detachable 2.5" HDD slot x 1
--I/O--USB Front x 4, Rear x 2 (USB2.0)
--Memory Stickstandard/Duo, PRO x 1
--SD standard/mini x 1
--CompactFlash(Type I, II) x 1

COMMUNICATION
--Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2)
--Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g
--Bluetooth--Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR)
--ControllerBluetooth (up to 7)
--USB 2.0 (wired)
--Wi-Fi (PSP)
--Network (over IP)

AV OUTPUT
Screen size 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p
HDMI out x 2
AV multi out x 1
Digital out (optical) x 1

DISC MEDIA
CD, PlayStation CD-ROM, PlayStation2 CD-ROM, CD-DA, CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW, SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD
DualDisc (audio side), DualDisc (DVD side), PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM, PlayStation 3 DVD-ROM, DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW, Blu-ray Disc, PlayStation 3 BD-ROM, BD-ROM, BD

XB360 Specs wrote: Xbox 360 System Performance Specifications

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU
Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each
Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total
VMX-128 vector unit per core; three total
128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread
1 MB L2 cache

CPU Game Math Performance
9 billion dot product operations per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor
10 MB of embedded DRAM
48-way parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines
48-way parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines
Unified shader architecture

Polygon Performance
500 million triangles per second

Pixel Fill Rate
16 gigasamples per second fill rate using 4x MSAA

Shader Performance
48 billion shader operations per second

Memory
512 MB of GDDR3 RAM
700 MHz of DDR
Unified memory architecture

Memory Bandwidth
22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
21.6 GB/s front-side bus

Overall System Floating-Point Performance
1 teraflop

Storage
Detachable and upgradeable 20GB hard drive
12x dual-layer DVD-ROM
Memory Unit support starting at 64 MB

I/O Support for up to four wireless game controllers
Three USB 2.0 ports
Two memory unit slots

Optimized for Online
Instant, out-of-the-box access to Xbox Live features with broadband service, including Xbox Live Marketplace for downloadable content, gamer profile for digital identity, and voice chat to talk to friends while playing games, watching movies, or listening to music
Built-in Ethernet port
Wi-Fi ready: 802.11a, 802.11b, and 802.11g
Video camera ready

Digital Media Support
Support for DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD, JPEG Photo CD â?¢
Ability to stream media from portable music devices, digital cameras and Windows XP-based PCs
Ability to rip music to the Xbox 360 hard drive
Custom playlists in every game
Built-in Media Center Extender for Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
Interactive, full-screen 3-D visualizers

High-Definition Game Support
All games supported at 16:9, 720p, and 1080i, anti-aliasing
Standard-definition and high-definition video output supported

Audio
Multi-channel surround sound output
Supports 48KHz 16-bit audio
320 independent decompression channels
32-bit audio processing
Over 256 audio channels

System Orientation
Stands vertically or horizontally

Customizable Face Plates
Interchangeable to personalize the console

1 Tflop vs 2 Tflop overall floting point performance indicates the PS3 with 7+1 cores will have more power than the 3 cores of the XB.

XB will gain by its current following being able to get next gen games 'first', and Sony will benifit by being backwards compatible with all its old games.

Both will have micro payments for downloadable content, for some reason I just think MS will charge more often but a little less....

I also think that even though I do not HD TV, there will be more things on screen than ever before with no slowdown no matter how heavy the action, so it will be worth it even with an 'old' TV.

Ultimately, the consoles fates rest in the hands of the games, for they are what really drive system sales. XB will no doubt have another Halo and PS3 is rumored to have a GTA title as well as GT5 ready for launch time.

Its a good time to be a gamer.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:32 am

Even if you don't like Halo, Xbox has so many other titles that are straight up amazing.

Both the Knights of the Old Republic games are quite good, Dead or Alive, Forza, Ninja Gaiden (Probably one of the best games I've ever played). Most games are made for all 3 platforms nowadays anyway.

If Xbox 360 can make it so that its compatible with Xbox games, they will blow Ps3 out of the water. And if they bring the Soul Caliber 3 and GTA series to Xbox, PS3 has no advantages. Except Final Fantasy, and nobody cares about Final Fantasy nerds.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Fri May 20, 2005 6:56 am

What? Nobody is going to get The Phantom?

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Fri May 20, 2005 7:06 am

I only buy consoles if they have games that interest me. I'll get a PS3 regardless just because of the large amount of PS1 games I own as well as the handful of good titles (IMHO) that came out for PS2 that I have.

There will no doubt be Final Fantasy XIII for PS3 (Suck it, Beo

) and I already have MGS4 on my gotta have it list.

Time will tell if I pick up a 360, but right now probably not.

HaAGen DaZS · Post by **HaAGen DaZS** » Fri May 20, 2005 8:36 am

screw you guys.

sonic the hedgehog and megadrive all the way!

mind you, i have been itching for some FF8!

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Fri May 20, 2005 10:37 am

Beowulf wrote: Except Final Fantasy, and nobody cares about Final Fantasy nerds.

Microsoft does, since FF is comming to the xbox360.

Flatlander · Post by **Flatlander** » Fri May 20, 2005 1:54 pm

HaAGen DaZS wrote:screw you guys.

sonic the hedgehog and megadrive all the way!

http://www.sega.com/games/game_temp.php ... icmegaplus

Plague · Post by **Plague** » Sat May 21, 2005 8:56 pm

I'm with TopGun, if I want to play games online, I'll use a PC. I absolutely love Zelda and Metroid, and I'd buy the Revolution soley for those titles (along with Super Smash Brothers). Add to that the capability to play any other Nintendo console game, and you have a heck of a system.

kurupt · Post by **kurupt** » Sat May 21, 2005 11:49 pm

i may be wrong, but i coulda swore that i read somewhere that there will be 2 versions of xbox live. silver and gold. silver being exactly what it is now, only free, and gold adding more features like video conferencing and some other stuff that didnt interest me enough to remember, and that was the one they were going to charge for.

MehYam · Post by **MehYam** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:14 pm

As an Xbox-only owner, the appeal of picking up a machine that will play PS3, PS2, and PSone games is pretty inviting.

Then again, I'm guessing that for casual gamers (i.e. me), it won't matter. Any system will have enough games, and enough of them will be cross-platform that it won't really matter.

BTW, don't trust that Killzone 2 footage. No way that's rendered realtime. Sony's pulled this stuff before....

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Tue May 24, 2005 3:40 am

They're pulling quite a bit then, considering it's not the only one that looks like that.

Vertigo 99 · Post by **Vertigo 99** » Tue May 24, 2005 10:47 am

i really dont understand why people don't believe that the killzone footage is real - whether it is or not, next gen games certainly have the capability of rendering at that level; i mean, its not that far a stretch from Half life 2. Anyway, it looks sweet, I dont know if I'm getting a Ps3 tho. Definitly getting a revolution, and if I have leftover cash, the new xbox looks good too.

[Hell, in a lot of ways, I think that half life 2 looks more realistic than what I saw from the killzone 2 footage.]

Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Admiral Thrawn** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:09 am

I think the point that he wanted to get across was this....

Sony has a history of "overstating" the capabilities of their systems in the past. Especially with the ps2 and then not living up to those expectations.

Those videos of Killzone were prerendered, but were "supposed" to show what the system is capable of. It's possible that it may look that good, BUT, considering that Sony pulled stunts like this in the past, it's best to wait until they actually show those games running on actual hardware. Some of the xbox games that were displayed had a few framerate problems, but they were actual running demos, running on incomplete hardware with 1/3 of the complete power. Until Sony shows realtime, they can show all the prerendered videos they want, but when it comes down to it, it's how it looks when it's actually played that counts, which I'll say again, Sony has left us hanging in that area.

DCrazy · Post by **DCrazy** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:10 am

Even if that Killzone stuff was rendered on PS3 hardware, I guarantee you 100% of the processor was being used to render it. What about physics, gameplay, netcode, all the things you don't have to worry about when doing a graphics demo?

Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Admiral Thrawn** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:14 am

Here's an interesting link

http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/20/x ... rt-1-of-4/

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Tue May 24, 2005 1:12 pm

Admiral Thrawn wrote:Here's an interesting link

http://www.majornelson.com/2005/05/20/x ... rt-1-of-4/

He got the number for the bandwidth wrong for the xbox 360. Including the embeded ram on the GPU is wrong because that memory can't be directly accessed by the main CPUs - because that would be a nasty mess of traces.

You also can't add include the Vram memory bandwidth for the PS3 in that comparison either, for the reasons stated above.

so its 22GB/s for the 360 and 26 GB for the PS3.

its just a lousy fanboy article.

Defender · Post by **Defender** » Wed May 25, 2005 6:51 pm

Halo 3 and Squeenix developing for the xbox are definately leaning me towards the 360, but (and I'm gonna get yelled at for this) the PS3 looks to be the machine with the most oomf this time around.
I havent' seen any info yet on the media that the 360's using, but unless it meets PS3's 54gig blue-ray discs, the 360'll be at a bit of a disadvantage this round.
Comments?

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Wed May 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Sony said the PS2 can render Toy Story in real time.

So, take it with a grain of salt.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Thu May 26, 2005 12:54 am

Wouldn't surprise me if it could, but that's not saying much...?

Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Admiral Thrawn** » Thu May 26, 2005 6:30 am

the PS3 looks to be the machine with the most oomf this time around

I'm actually hesitant on saying which machine is more powerful than the other until final dev kits are in developer's hands and they start commenting. But.... we have been led astray in the past by Sony's "false" marketing when it comes to the power of their specs. If you can find them on the web, read through some of the things they stated that the ps2 was capable of doing. (7 times more powerful than computers, etc..).

The real verdict will come from the software engineers.

Defender · Post by **Defender** » Thu May 26, 2005 7:56 pm

Admiral Thrawn wrote:
the PS3 looks to be the machine with the most oomf this time around
I'm actually hesitant on saying which machine is more powerful than the other until final dev kits are in developer's hands and they start commenting. But.... we have been led astray in the past by Sony's "false" marketing when it comes to the power of their specs. If you can find them on the web, read through some of the things they stated that the ps2 was capable of doing. (7 times more powerful than computers, etc..).

The real verdict will come from the software engineers.

Ya, I should know better by now to jump the gun like that.
What I'm most curious about is media size.
If sony isn't BSing with those blue-ray discs (and it doesn't bump game prices up) PS3 will have a nice advantage.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Thu May 26, 2005 11:22 pm

Both Xbox and PS2 have had exaggerated claims in the past. This is nothing new:
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/26/comment ... /index.htm

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sat May 28, 2005 5:14 am

http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/gam ... festo.html
Entertainingly true.

Top Gun · Post by **Top Gun** » Sun May 29, 2005 9:10 pm

Jeff, that is the best article I've read in a very long time.