New CTF level, nearing completion...

[Slowguy]

Alright, so I had some time, and I decided to turn one of my unfinished projects, into a finished project.

I started this level shortly after the Descent IV project failed. I had been on the team as a level designer and was focusing on creating high-poly rooms and objects for the level I was assigned to. Once the project ended I continued working on the level I was assigned, in hopes of someday releasing it, but I ended up loosing all that work when a virus infected my computer. Once I fixed the computer I decided that I would build a new level. A level that was inspired by my previous work. I didn't get far on this new level though. Life got in the way, and I eventually ended up loosing interest.

Recently I decided to make some use out of what I had. I wanted to take what I had and build a CTF level. This is what I came up with...





The outdoor buildings will be bases for both the red and blue teams. There are only two paths to take when trying to get to a base. Going across the bridge would be the quickest way... going the other way takes longer, but you have a better chance of surviving. because there are only two paths, scoring will be difficult if there are a lot of people in the game. This might make it more interesting though. I'm curious to know what you guys think.

Currently I'm working on getting the weapons balanced. This is what the list looks like so far:

2 Shield Orbs
2 Fusion Cannons
2 Plasma Cannons
2 Vauss Cannons
2 Impact Mortars
2 4 Pack Homing
4 Concussion Missles
2 Mega Missles
2 Superlasers
2 Quad Laser Powerups
1 Emd Cannon
2 Energy Stars
2 Mass Drivers
2 Napalm Rockets
2 Frag Missles

I think it's a bit overkill now, but let me know what you think.

Also, the level doesn't have a name, so suggestions are welcome.

[Lothar]

I'd stay away from 4-packs of homers, but perhaps include a couple 4-packs of concs.

Also, consider including a microwave (or two) -- it's an occasionally useful gun.

[Duper]

Dude. Sweeet! Hurry it up!

Lothar, he only has 2 missle packs. If there is no random powerup respawns, it shouldn't be an issue. And besides, this looks large enough to support homing missles.

Slow, it there an accessable outside terrain or is it just for looks?
I love that wire terrain shot. That would make a kickass desktop.

[pipsqueak10]

Outside Terrain looks kind of Outragey, very nice I think!

[Testiculese]

Holy ★■◆●!

I'd recommend no 4 packs of anything but concs. Low respawn=Abend. This level looks way too good for that insult. Put the concs outside the flag area so the base defenders don't have too much of a free loadup.

Micro would be great. I use that in a Pyro often. It's great for offensive flag support because you can pop the chasers with it and they can't see to hit the flagrunner.

One vauss clip would be nice. Two, since it's CTF, actually. No MD rounds is cool, but actually, get OtherOne's MD ammo mod (2 per powerup).

Going to have gravity? (I noticed nape rockets)

Is that tunnel the *only* way into the base?

Are the respawn points protected? What DwnUnder did for his Veins conversion was good, but I'd suggest a one-way door instead of a wall.

[Top Gun]

Those screenshots look absolutely amazing.

[Slowguy]

Alright, I'll get rid of the 4 packs... maybe I'll replace them with 4 separate homers, 4 total? I don't really care too much for microwave, but I'll throw it in there. umm... perhaps I'll trade the four separate concussions for a set of 4 pack concussions? I'll add in the vauss clips, and I think the modded MD rounds would be great, I'll add two of those.

I'm also thinking of adding one or two omegas, and possibly a few guided missiles. The omega because, the beam can travel through glass, and since there is a lot of glass surrounding the bases, it might be useful for attacking players hiding behind the glass. Also, there are places to hide on the terrain, places that would be perfect to fly a guided missile from. So I'm thinking of adding a few of those.

Gravity is set to 32? I think, so yeah, there's gravity.

There is only one tunnel into the base, but there is also another tunnel that goes to the terrain, and the base is accessible from the terrain.

Protected respawn points? hmm... that's a good idea. I never really thought about that. The door idea sounds good. I'll make some custom doors for this.

Duper: The wireframe shot? hmm it might make a nice desktop, it's kind of blurry though...

Thanks for the feedback guys! keep it coming!

[DCrazy]

One-way doors are a better option, IMO, since they give players who coordinate an offensive another tactical option. However, since they're in the respawn room, and the people the kill will be spawning right next to them with 3 seconds of invulnerability, it shouldn't get too bad.

Nix the EMD. And the Mass Driver might turn it into a Veins-like point-and-click-fest. Seems like dogfighting in those tunnels would be pretty sweet.

And *how long* does it take to render the lightmaps for that terrain? Jeez!

[Duper]

I ment that image of the terrain and level in wireframe. Kinda ghostly. just cool lookin.

[Slowguy]

EMD how'd that get in there lol, I'll probably end up taking it out. To prevent point and click with the MD, I could try reducing the amount of ammo the MD starts with. I could set the starting ammo to like, say 10? or 7? I seem to recall someone else doing this in their level a while back, I don't know how effective it was though.

Oh, and I'm not exactly sure how long it takes to light the terrain. I think it takes longer to light the mine. Next time I'll time it!

ghostly? ya know, now that I look at it, it kinda does look ghostly. I'm just so used to seeing that scene in d3edit, it's hard for me to see more than a blurred mess

[Sirius]

Full points for style.

[Diedel]

Looks incredible.

[Grendel]

Very nice! Check out Bill The Cat or Damage for a good MD mod -- MD starts out w/ 5 rounds and each kill spews a single round.

[Slowguy]

Thanks, I'll be sure to check that out. 5 sounds alright. I think I'll include some extra rounds somewhere in the level (two shots each, maybe?).

Here's the current weapons/powerups list:

Weapons (Primary):

2 Superlaser Cannons
2 Vauss Cannons
2 Mass Drivers (Modified)
2 Plasma Cannons
2 Fusion Cannons
2 Microwave Cannons

Weapons (Secondary):

2 4 Pack Concussion Missiles
6 Homing Missiles
4 Guided Missiles
2 Frag Missiles
2 Impact Mortars
2 Napalm Missiles
2 Mega Missiles

Powerups:

2 Quad Laser Powerups
2 Vauss Clips
2 Shield Orbs
2 Energy Stars
2 MD Rounds (Modified)
2 Afterburner Coolers

Today I worked on creating safe respawn points. I built a medium sized room underneath each base, with three secret doors leading up into the base. The secret doors open and close very quickly, and they will only open in one direction (once I get that working), so this room should be pretty safe... I'm thinking that maybe 6 player starts will fit into this room. Maybe more... but I think I'm going to put other starting points towards the middle of the level.

[Grendel]

Sidenote: Damage also features a D2 style plasma gun -- hint, hint

[Slowguy]

Ahh, yes... I was wanting to include that as well, I just hadn't mentioned it yet

Thanks though, I'd probably be searching all over not knowing where I would find that.

[Skyalmian]

Impressive level. I'll host this for a while provided the weapon mods aren't buggy like the "D2 Plasma" that everyone uses so much.

Since everyone else is pimping out their opinions...

To prevent point and click with the MD, I could try reducing the amount of ammo the MD starts with.

You could leave the Mass Driver as regular, but leave out ammo entirely.

Oh, and I'm not exactly sure how long it takes to light the terrain. I think it takes longer to light the mine. Next time I'll time it!

It usually takes a few days, which is the norm. If ships will be outside, do full dynamic lighting for shadows. Not everyone has "Bright Player Ships" set to on.

Also, consider including a microwave (or two) -- it's an occasionally useful gun.

Ya. Have Microwave included.

I'm also thinking of adding one or two omegas

Yay. Omega!

If I remember correctly, D3Server by default, at first program start, is set to ban some powerups such as Omega, so it won't matter for most servers anyway. Toss it in.

Protected respawn points? hmm... that's a good idea.

That isn't really necessary. People need to learn how to use Observer Mode or going AFK when dead rather than bothering level designers to add unnecessary rooms. Also, there are unfortunately a lot of people that know how to ghost the enemy flag and camp in the protected respawn rooms with it, which kills the entire game. It's happened countless times in Veins.

EMD how'd that get in there?

What's the problem with EMD? Outrage dumbed it down the hard-coded way a long time ago (as I found when trying to change its lifetime). However, it is still quite useful in long areas such as in Abend2 for example, for when some pansy runs away up one of the long tunnels leading out from the center room. 95% of the time they usually die. It rules.

Sidenote: Damage also features a D2 style plasma gun -- hint, hint

I'd fix it. It's buggy, as it causes a volume problem after leaving a level such as Damage and joining one that doesn't have the "D2 Plasma". I avoid levels that have it strictly because of that, plus I prefer normal Plasma more.

[Ferno]

lookin good man

Although those tunnels look a little tight for frag missiles. It may be a good idea to not include them in the weapon loadout.

[Grendel]

Hm, never had a problem w/ the Damage Plasma. Maybe the D2-P version in Falling Down is different ?

I'd leave the frags in, the tunnels don't look that tight -- 2 isn't really a lot anyway

[Skyalmian]

I'd fix it. It's buggy, as it causes a volume problem after leaving a level such as Damage and joining one that doesn't have the "D2 Plasma". I avoid levels that have it strictly because of that, plus I prefer normal Plasma more.

The "D2 Plasma" in its current state fuxes up the volume for the Plasma for all subsequent levels played in. It can be fixed by setting the Import Adjust value for "Sound: WpnPyroGLPlasmaFire" to 0.5 (default) instead of 1.0 (the value OtherOne set it to). If the volume of the Plasma fire sound is too low, then simply edit the "Plasma3.wav" file with a sound editor by increasing its volume in-file and include that *.wav file in the *.MN3.

I'll make the change(s) if asked.

[BUBBALOU]

Sidenote: Damage also features a D2 style plasma gun -- hint, hint

Go play D2!

[Slowguy]

Hmm, very interesting... Thanks for pointing out that bug with the plasma mod. I'll fix it, it's not too difficult. Also, I'm thinking of just changing the plasma sound, and possibly appearance, but nothing else.

I don't know what I'm going to do about the MD yet. I like the idea of having it start out with five rounds, and then have additional single rounds throughout the level... but also including it as is, with no modifications, and with no additional rounds, I think that sounds good as well. So I'm not sure. I'll beta test with some friends next weekend and see how things go...

Dynamic lighting on the terrain doesn't take me days, I don't even think it takes me hours. Maybe close to 40 minutes. It's been a while since I've done that though, perhaps it takes a little more than an hour. Definitely not days... unless I'm lighting the terrain wrong!

Microwave is in... Omega is in...

Protected respawn points... Well, they're kind of already there. The way it's set up now, I don't think there should be any problem with respawn killing, or camping with the flag. I could be wrong though...

EMD? Well I decided to leave EMD out because some of the tunnels in the bases are very narrow (the bridge tunnel for example), and EMD would be impossible to dodge in these tunnels. Also, energy centers are really close to these areas... I just felt that it would not be a good idea to include it. I don't really have a problem with EMD, It's actually nice to use once in a while.

Frag missiles? Hmm, well yeah, it's true that some of the tunnels are very narrow, but I don't think the Frag missiles would be much of a problem. I'm more worried about the Napalm missiles. (Hmm... Maybe I should replace those Napalms with some Mercurys?)

[Grendel]

Falling Down has an only slightly suped up plasma, not the Otherone mod IIRC

[Skyalmian]

Dynamic lighting on the terrain doesn't take me days, I don't even think it takes me hours. Maybe close to 40 minutes. It's been a while since I've done that though, perhaps it takes a little more than an hour. Definitely not days... unless I'm lighting the terrain wrong!

You're lighting the terrain wrong. There is no PC today that can do it that fast at the proper settings. Except for "Lightmap Spacing", "Entire Mine Ambience", and "Entire Mine Multiplier", your settings should be similar if not the same for the others. Certainly, all three checkboxes should be checked. Terrain lighting usually finishes between 175,000 - 250,000 iterations.

Protected respawn points... Well, they're kind of already there. The way it's set up now, I don't think there should be any problem with respawn killing, or camping with the flag. I could be wrong though...

If they are rooms where only respawners can get to, then it'll be an issue.

EMD? Well I decided to leave EMD out because some of the tunnels in the bases are very narrow (the bridge tunnel for example), and EMD would be impossible to dodge in these tunnels. Also, energy centers are really close to these areas... I just felt that it would not be a good idea to include it. I don't really have a problem with EMD, It's actually nice to use once in a while.

Tanks and their Tri-Fusion will completely dominate those areas as a result. Which is the greater evil?

I'm more worried about the Napalm missiles.

Nuking a tight area with Napalm to fend off the bad guys was always cool.

[Sirius]

You're lighting the terrain wrong. There is no PC today that can do it that fast at the proper settings. Except for "Lightmap Spacing", "Entire Mine Ambience", and "Entire Mine Multiplier", your settings should be similar if not the same for the others. Certainly, all three checkboxes should be checked. Terrain lighting usually finishes between 175,000 - 250,000 iterations.

You know, this was one thing I never got about D3Edit - why does it take longer to calculate lighting than specialised 3D rendering software, when less detail is involved and less precision is needed?

I guess it's just a quick (to implement, not run) and dirty algorithm, so to speak... but it is just one of the many things I wish could be fixed...

[Stryker]

Talk to Atan about it--however, I've lighted terrain using those exact settings on a less-than-current computer. If you do a full dynamic light it took my old computer about 3 hours.

[Skyalmian]

For the "Dynamic Light" button, probably. I wouldn't know, as I never clicked that and left it at that. I always clicked the "Light It!" button and answered Yes.

[Duper]

It took me over 4 hours to run the lights on the first level of Total Chaos.

Couple of reasons why. I was running Super Detail and Atan's doesn't consume all your computer's resources to do it Like the beta 9 version does. You can browse and do some other things as long as it's not too strenous.

In the older D3Edit it only took 15 minutes or so using the same settings but that's all I was able to do. Also, Atan's did a much nicer job of lighting; and with all the extra options I get through Atan's editor, I don't mind taking the time.

I will say that the texture alignment function for both suck eggs. I have a lot of rocky facing and be damned if I don't have to do half of it by hand. Not sure how it works, but I think that the algorithm has a hard time dealing with extended irregular faces.

It has over 4300 faces and 21 rooms.

And I know SlowG is using Atans editor.

[Sirius]

Yeah, you have to look very hard for a level editor with actual texture mapping. D3Edit had a number of nice improvements I always wished DMB2 had, but it backtracked on a couple things as well.

[Slowguy]

You're lighting the terrain wrong. There is no PC today that can do it that fast at the proper settings. Except for "Lightmap Spacing", "Entire Mine Ambience", and "Entire Mine Multiplier", your settings should be similar if not the same for the others. Certainly, all three checkboxes should be checked. Terrain lighting usually finishes between 175,000 - 250,000 iterations.

I think you're right, I did light the terrain in less than an hour with dynamic lighting, but it was with default settings. I forgot that those settings effected terrain lighting, I thought I'd just click light terrain, and click yes to dynamic light, and that would be it...

If they are rooms where only respawners can get to, then it'll be an issue. ]

Ok I understand this now... but would a room behind a wall (a one way wall) be alright? I don't see how someone could end up with a flag in one of these rooms.

Tanks and their Tri-Fusion will completely dominate those areas as a result. Which is the greater evil?

Well that's just a little different, but I see your point... I'll think about it.

Nuking a tight area with Napalm to fend off the bad guys was always cool.

Yeah, it is, but the tunnels very tight inside the base, so I'm not sure. I'll leave them in for now, and then just see how it plays when I beta it.

I must get some sleep now

[Skyalmian]

You're lighting the terrain wrong. There is no PC today that can do it that fast at the proper settings. Except for "Lightmap Spacing", "Entire Mine Ambience", and "Entire Mine Multiplier", your settings should be similar if not the same for the others. Certainly, all three checkboxes should be checked. Terrain lighting usually finishes between 175,000 - 250,000 iterations.

I think you're right, I did light the terrain in less than an hour with dynamic lighting, but it was with default settings. I forgot that those settings effected terrain lighting, I thought I'd just click light terrain, and click yes to dynamic light, and that would be it...

See this picture for proper settings.

Ok I understand this now... but would a room behind a wall (a one way wall) be alright? I don't see how someone could end up with a flag in one of these rooms.

People spawning in a room that has a one-way wall leading out is precisely what I was referring to. People can ghost the enemy flag at will because of a bug and end up in those rooms with the flag, where they will never be touched by anyone. I've seen it happen countless times in levels with such respawn one-way-out-and-no-way-in rooms like Varicose Veins. The game is always brought to a standstill.

[Slowguy]

Thanks for the link to the picture. I know what I should be doing now though. It was just a silly mistake. I thought the settings up at the top only applied to lighting of the mine.

As for the one way wall thing... Would a one way door work? One side of the door would have a face that doesn't open, the other side would have no face at all. Basically it's the same idea as before, only this time, the one way wall would be replaced by a one way door. I dunno, I'm just trying to think of a way around this problem... I think it would be nice to keep the protected respawn points.

[Grendel]

People spawning in a room that has a one-way wall leading out is precisely what I was referring to. People can ghost the enemy flag at will because of a bug and end up in those rooms with the flag, where they will never be touched by anyone. I've seen it happen countless times in levels with such respawn one-way-out-and-no-way-in rooms like Varicose Veins. The game is always brought to a standstill.

If that happens w/ a guy on my team I usually ghost an MD and kick the guy out the room -- kinda fun

[Skyalmian]

I'm just trying to think of a way around this problem... I think it would be nice to keep the protected respawn points.

There is no way around the problem. That's what I'm saying.

If that happens w/ a guy on my team I usually ghost an MD and kick the guy out the room -- kinda fun

Oh. I hadn't thought of that. But not everyone would think to. Also, you'd have to do it multiple times before you end up in the right room.

[Slowguy]

There is no way around the problem. That's what I'm saying.

But there has to be... Heh heh. Sorry, I just don't like giving up that easy.

Does wind have effect on the flag?

[Skyalmian]

There is no way around the problem. That's what I'm saying.

But there has to be... Heh heh. Sorry, I just don't like giving up that easy.

This is extremely simple; there isn't a way around this. You want people to spawn in a room with one way out and no way in. Allow people to get in and out and the problem is solved.

Does wind have effect on the flag?

It does when it's not attached to a ship, else the ship moves along with the flag.

[Testiculese]

including it as is, with no modifications, and with no additional rounds

Problem with this in CTF is they get 10 rounds, use'em all and die, get it again, use it 'till they die, etc. They always have it.
Or, if you use all 10 and live for 30 minutes, it's kinda dull with not a round of MD in sight. Especially if you're defense.

Limiting the ammo and having some available lets the offensive use md sparingly at long range to get to the flag, no matter long it takes, and still have a few left over if needed on the runaway.
It also lets defense have a few shells among them to get a hit on a runaway feeni.

I'd say 4 loaded in the gun, and 1 round per spew. 2 rounds if you can restrict how often it spews them (like 20% chance or something). Bringing the MD activity from 90% usage to 40% would be great with the D2 plasma, QSL's, and no afterburner cooler.

edit:: oh no, you put the ab cooler in!

[Slowguy]

Skyalmian: Alright, here's my proposed solution:



Now if there's a good reason not to have the respawn points set up this way then I'll change it, and I'll just forget about trying to creating protected respawn points.

Testiculese: You make some very good points, So I think I'll just have the MD modded the way it was done in Bill the Cat, and in Damage.

Oh! and what's the matter with the AB cooler! You think I should take it out? I'm fine with that I don't really care to much for it anyways.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate it!

[Top Gun]

Interesting; I've never seen that flag ghosting trick pulled during a VV game. In fact, until this thread, I wasn't even aware that it existed. Guess I'm just playing with the right bunch of people.

[Testiculese]

online conditions + 1.4 netcode + feeni + AB Cooler = skipfest. Especially if there is terrain. It's 50-50 tho', but I always end up leaning to no cooler, just to slow the feeni down a bit. As internet connections speed up and stabilize, it hopefully becomes moot.