Autopsies aren't only for CSI

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Genghis
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Autopsies aren't only for CSI

Post by Genghis »

Of course we're all sick of the Terry Schiavo thing, but this is one of those rare opportunities for an "I told you so." The autopsy results are in, and now we can give a big rasberry to the Congressional conservative majority and to a few of our very own special people here on the DBB.
New York Times wrote: Debate Over Legislative Actions Is Renewed

By ANNE E. KORNBLUT
Published: June 16, 2005

WASHINGTON, June 15 - The autopsy of Terri Schiavo - particularly the findings that she had irreversible brain damage and was blind - left Republicans who had pushed so aggressively for federal intervention struggling on Wednesday to defend their argument that she should have been kept alive.

Senator Mel Martinez, the Florida Republican who pressed the case most, said he has since had second thoughts about Congress's involvement.

"I really probably come to the view this has to be more resolved at the state level, seems like the kind of issue the state courts deal with," Mr. Martinez said.

Representative Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, said that in his five years in office, he saw Congress do its "worst job communicating" during the Schiavo episode.

The case has reverberated politically for months, contributing to a sharp drop in approval ratings for the Republican-controlled Congress, whose leaders convened an extraordinary emergency session in March to pass legislation protecting Ms. Schiavo, a dying Florida woman.

With the autopsy concluding that no treatment could have improved her condition and that she was unaware of her surroundings when her feeding tube was removed, lawmakers backed away from their earlier comments and said they had simply wanted to give her family proper access to the courts.

The case has also given Democrats ammunition to use against the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, a transplant surgeon who, on the Senate floor, voiced his opinion about Ms. Schiavo's condition based on videotapes in which she appears reactive to some stimuli.

Aides to Dr. Frist, a likely presidential candidate in 2008, angrily said he had never made a formal diagnosis and thus had nothing to retract.

Democrats cited the autopsy results as proof that Ms. Schiavo's husband - and critics of federal intervention - had been vindicated.

"I think it will be seen at some point as a turning point in America about what's going on with the Republican Party - namely that you have this fanatical party willing to impose its own views on people, and frankly, powerful enough to do it," said Representative Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts, who was among the most vocal critics of the Schiavo bill. "This is particularly a problem for Dr. Frist. This is a direct refutation of his TV diagnosis."

Dr. Frist did not respond to questions about the autopsy findings, saying he had not had time to review them. His spokeswoman, Amy Call, sought out reporters who asked about the case to assert that Dr. Frist "never made a diagnosis."

Throughout the floor debates on Ms. Schiavo's fate, Republicans asserted that she was responsive to external stimuli and that the removal of her feeding and hydration tubes would lead to the murder of a conscious woman. Emotional speeches on the floors of both chambers took her mental state into account, portraying her as alert and lively.

Dr. Frist, in his floor statement on March 17, said that after viewing videotape of Ms. Schiavo, it was clear she was responsive. "To be able to make a diagnosis of persistent vegetative state - which is not brain dead; it is not coma; it is a specific diagnosis and typically takes multiple examinations over a period of time because you are looking for responsiveness - I have looked at the video footage," Dr. Frist said. "Based on the footage provided to me, which was part of the facts of the case, she does respond."

Bob Stevenson, a spokesman for Dr. Frist, said: "The autopsy results remind us of the terrible toll that this tragedy has taken on all those close to Terri Schiavo. Having seen the news reports today, it's clear that the autopsy provides additional medical information on her condition at the time her feeding tube was removed."

After a seven-year legal struggle, Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube was removed for the last time on March 18. Three days later, in a bid to bring her case into federal court, Congress held its emergency session and passed the Terri Schiavo bill, which allowed her case to be considered by a federal judge. President Bush flew back from his ranch Texas on Palm Sunday to sign it into law.

Representative Tom DeLay, the House majority leader who broke a long silence during ethical troubles to speak out for Ms. Schiavo, called it the "Palm Sunday compromise."

"Ms. Schiavo's condition, I believe, has been misrepresented by the media," Mr. DeLay said on March 20. "Terri Schiavo is not brain dead; she talks and she laughs, and she expresses happiness and discomfort. Terri Schiavo is not on life support."

On Wednesday, a spokesman for Mr. DeLay declined to answer any questions about the autopsy, except to say that his "thoughts and prayers remain with the family and friends of Terri Schiavo."

A similarly muted message came from the White House. "It doesn't change the position that the president took," said its spokesman, Scott McClellan. "The president believes we should stand on the side of defending and protecting life."
Of course Congress only intervened in the first place to placate the uber-conservative portion of their constituency and most of them really didn't have their heart in it. Nevertheless...

And in this thread: phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6152&highlight=schiavo we can see who deserves to be pointed at and laughed at. Actually there were only two or three dunces in that thread and most of the DBB'ers maintained level-headedness.

I had to point this out, since about 99% of the topics we discuss on this board never have any type of resolution. And yes, you can slam me for quoting the NYTimes, but these results and this issue are so black and white now that any spin attempted by a conservative source would just be embarassing.
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Post by bash »

Lord help us if an autopsy remains the only definitive test for these sorts of dilemmas. In another situation it could have just as easily been either inconclusive or a major *oops*. Sorry, but this procedure is not reversible. :oops: It would be nice to expect a future time when someone doesn't have to be killed to prove they're not alive.

The Schiavo case was definitely one for the books but I'm not really sure we've learned much. Each subsequent case will be unique so I don't believe it brings us any closer to clarifying how to approach similar situations in the future. It only has to happen once that an autopsy reveals a (once) higher functioning brain and we'll be right back here again.

All the Schiavo case defined was who ultimately has the final word over care; spouse or family or government. I'm pleased that it's not government but there was enough about the case that seemed stinky that I'm not certain I'm pleased that the spouse was the victorious party in this instance. What the autopsy can't tell us are the circumstances that led to Schiavo's state (the state previous to her currently dead state).
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Post by Gooberman »

Genghis wrote:but these results and this issue are so black and white now that any spin attempted by a conservative source would just be embarassing.
Let's not be silly. WMD anyone?
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Post by Grendel »

bash wrote:Lord help us if an autopsy remains the only definitive test for these sorts of dilemmas.
Wonder why nobody bothered to take an MRI.. Too expensive ?
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Post by bash »

Apparently one was done and revealed what would later be found by the autopsy. I can only guess that the MRI presented insufficient proof regarding what the medical folks/courts were looking for.
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Post by roid »

http://www.artvilla.com/kuypers/prose/2 ... 76x165.jpg
came across only a few days ago while researching CAT-scan 3D models.

normal brain LEFT. Schiavo's brain RIGHT.
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Post by Pandora »

bash wrote:Apparently one was done and revealed what would later be found by the autopsy. I can only guess that the MRI presented insufficient proof regarding what the medical folks/courts were looking for.
I rather think that politics came in between. I work at a Psychology & Brain Science Institute and it seemed pretty obvious to everyone here that Schiavo was a lost case.
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Post by bash »

Ya, that was what I was thinking. Anyone with even cursory experience reading scans likely knew immediately she was not coming back no matter how much therapy she received.
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Post by Repo Man »

If only the world were as simple as Genghis would like to believe.

I don't have the time to get into BBS debates. However, I will throw out some more foolishness from the "dunces" that seems worth pondering...

Autopsy suggests Schiavo cognizant

A snippet from the above story...
"The frontal temporal and temporal poles and insular-cortex demonstrated relative preservation."

"What this tells us is that her cortex retained function and that her brain was more normal in the area that controls higher-level thinking..."

[T]he brain's frontal lobe plays a part in impulse control, judgment, language, memory, motor function, problem solving, sexual behavior, socialization and spontaneity.

"It is very possible that she remained cognizant of sounds and other things without being able to communicate," Ward said. "It's possible Terri was aware of everything being done to her -- yet could do little to make people aware that she was there."

Ward pointed out that major damage to Schiavo's brain was shown to be toward the back -- the areas that affects motor skills.

So the question remains, says Ward, was Terri Schiavo still a thinking, aware human being?

In fact, neuropathologist Stephen Nelson, whose assessment is included in the report, conceded there is no way of determining through an autopsy whether a person was in a persistent vegetative state.
There is also Jerri Lynn Ward's weblog. "Terri Schiavo's Autopsy--The Spin and The Meaning":

Part I
Part II
Part III
Part IV
Part V
Part VI

Here's a snippet from that also...
Compare that with what Dr. Boyle at Code Blue Blog said about the CT Scan:

HAVE SEEN MANY WALKING, TALKING, FAIRLY COHERENT PEOPLE WITH WORSE CEREBRAL/CORTICAL ATROPHY. THEREFORE, THIS IS IN NO WAY PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE THAT TERRI SCHIAVO'S MENTAL ABILITIES OR/OR CAPABILITIES ARE COMPLETELY ERADICATED. I CANNOT BELIEVE SUCH TESTIMONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THE BASIS OF THIS SCAN.
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Post by Genghis »

djordan wrote:If only the world were as simple as Genghis would like to believe.
I said this issue was black and white, not the world in general. Perhaps I should have used the word "case" instead of "issue," since I only meant to talk about Terry Schiavo and the 15 year history of her condition.
djordan wrote:I don't have the time to get into BBS debates.
Sure you do! You took plenty of time to research and post the above. Or, if you didn't research it and actually read that guy's Blog daily, well there's no help for you.

I read the first article and snippets of the Blog, and what I saw doesn't make me think reading it all is worthwhile. According to what I have read, the assessment of the medical implications of the autopsy you quoted above were made by...an attorney! Firstly, attorneys aren't doctors, and secondly any attorney who thrives on controversy and being in the spotlight should be taken with a grain of salt. Heck, his quotes from actual doctors are about the CT scan, not the autopsy report! And he seems more interested in the original cause of Terry's condition than on what that condition actually was. Perhaps he still thinks he can make a buck prosecuting Mr. Schiavo.

If you dig up something legitimate I'll be happy to check it out. Perhaps you can convince me that she was trapped inside her body, mind racing and yet unable to do anything except get bedsores and yeast infections. Of course if that is the case I would think her racing mind would have been saying "let me die, let me die!"
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Post by Plebeian »

Genghis wrote:Of course if that is the case I would think her racing mind would have been saying "let me die, let me die!"
Most likely. I don't think anyone would really want to be trapped like that. It's like some sort of horrible nightmare. Aware yet unable to actually do anything.

Besides, I see this all as a failure of the legal system. The fact that the only person who legally has the authority to speak on her behalf (her husband) was not allowed to because her parents (who don't have any power at all as she was not a minor and as a married woman had a next-of-kin that was not them) didn't like his decision. It really makes me scared what other people might have to deal with. I seem to remember someone in this case saying something like she didn't have a living will that specified what to do. Well so what? That just means that since she didn't make a legal statement that "this is what I want to happen", then the person with medical power of attorney would be the one to make the call, not some random people (who just happen to be her parents).

Government trying to get involved in an individual's simple medical affair: not a good thing. Are they going to start looking at every sick person's case now, since they care so much about our wellbeing that they'll save us from our mean ol' spouses that have the legal authority to do what they feel is right? ;)

Gotta love what happens when the media's bored. :P
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Post by Hostile »

Genghis call Hostile............
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Post by Ferno »

I just wish these guys would tell the uber-right to just STFU.
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Post by Gooberman »

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Post by Top Wop »

OMG an investigation. Think of the children. Right Goob?
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Post by Gooberman »

Think of no longer beating the husband who lost his wife over the head for political gain. We get it, he's lucifer himself, it's time to find your publicity cow elsewhere.

They are doing everything they can to find evidence to support the pre-determined theory. The only real question is it in order to help Jeb 08' or Jeb 12'

We sure do hear alot about Florida.
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Post by Stryker »

Makes one think that the dems weren't beating the WMD issue over the head for all it was worth.
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Post by Palzon »

Stryker wrote:Makes one think that the dems weren't beating the WMD issue over the head for all it was worth.
nice. going for the rediculous, irrelvant, ignorant trifecta, were you?
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Post by Stryker »

What I'm saying is, of course politicians are going to milk an issue for all it's worth. They wouldn't be politicians if they didn't.
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Post by Palzon »

Stryker wrote:What I'm saying is, of course politicians are going to milk an issue for all it's worth. They wouldn't be politicians if they didn't.
I think that's a valid point. I can see you meant well.

However, I don't think the Schiavo example is in any way analgous to beating the WMD horse, which is far from dead in my opinion.
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Post by Mobius »

And if people took the time to draw up living wills, then none of this would be necessary. I have one, and so do all my family members. Our lawyers have copies, and this means there can NEVER be any doubt about what treatments are acceptable and unacceptable for our family.

The law is clear: living wills take precedence over any and all family wishes.
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Post by Top Gun »

Very good advice Mobius. (Did I just say that? :P)
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Post by Beowulf »

This whole situation was a fiasco - a media circus and a disgusting display of politicians taking a family's loss and turning it into personal political gain. Clearly the woman had no chance to be revived. Brain cells don't regenerate like other cells of the body, and her brain was gone. No activity in any of the lobes or cortexes, no brain activity whatsoever. You don't have to be a doctor to see this. You just have to be a crooked poliitician with a personal agenda to not see it. Oh wait, crooked, politician, and with a personal agenda all mean the same thing. Oops.
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Post by DCrazy »

Nobody was willing to admit that legally the husband had full right to pull the plug. Why it ever got to the stage it did just highlights the uselessness of our legal system.
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Post by roid »

actually beo, brain cells can regenerate *iirc. just VERY VERY slowly (if unaided). i'd even go as far as accusing the whole "brain calls don't grow back" theory as an urban myth.
however, cells naturally replacing themselves is a long way from self-reconstructing organs.


*i recommend researching this yourself before quoting me on this as factual. i just have a distant memory of once being surprised when i learnt that "brain cells actually do grow back", coz it surprised me too.

maybe the theory involved stem cell research. which would be very ironic given the players in this battle (the very anti-stem cell research - american religious right)
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Post by Ferno »

roid wrote:actually beo, brain cells can regenerate *iirc. just VERY VERY slowly (if unaided). i'd even go as far as accusing the whole "brain calls don't grow back" theory as an urban myth.
however, cells naturally replacing themselves is a long way from self-reconstructing organs.


*i recommend researching this yourself before quoting me on this as factual. i just have a distant memory of once being surprised when i learnt that "brain cells actually do grow back", coz it surprised me too.

maybe the theory involved stem cell research. which would be very ironic given the players in this battle (the very anti-stem cell research - american religious right)

What medical evidence do you have to support this?*


*Asking us to do the legwork for you is just plain rude and lazy.
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Post by Pandora »

he's right. They do so *in some circumstances*. There was an article out this or last year ... I'll see if I can dig it up.
but then again, even if they do, there's just no way that so many of them would come back.
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Post by roid »

:P

as i said ferno, vauge memory. so it should be taken as an unsubstantiated DBB rumour until someone else seconds the rumour - insert pandora.

i can't even remember where i heard it (print? tv? a friend?) it's so vauge. all i recall is that i was surprised by it. i don't even recall if it was a new procedure or not, it may have just been a sidepoint in some brain biochemistry 101 page.

you don't have to do any legwork... just remember that you heard a rumour.
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Post by Ferno »

heh.. you guys missed the point I was trying to get at.

If you're willing to make a claim as large as that, at least back it up.
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Post by Pandora »

ah i see, Ferno.
here it is anyways...

from Science
www.sciencemag.org
NEUROBIOLOGY:
New Leads to Brain Neuron Regeneration

Two sets of findings published this week are raising hopes that contrary to neurobiologists' belief, it may be possible for neurons in the adult brain to regenerate. In one, two research teams independently isolated what appear to be the first human cells that can differentiate into all the cell types found in the brain--so-called neural stem cells; in the other an international team found a small area of the human brain that produces new neurons into old age. Both neural stem cells and the birth of neurons in adult brains have been seen in other mammals, but identifying them in humans was a demonstration that could be critical to future therapies for diseases such as Parkinson's or Alzheimer's.
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