Do we believe things too easily?

[Zuruck]

I'm not even sure if the topic is being discussed anymore...my four cents.

Why are we surprised anymore by the govt? Nothing these people do or say should interest us anymore.

And Birdseye is right, Christians have done far worse things in history. But they rarely beheaded people, they found a much more humane way, death by burn and stragulation.

[Will Robinson]

...And Birdseye is right, Christians have done far worse things in history. But they rarely beheaded people, they found a much more humane way, death by burn and stragulation.

Well the big difference, in the context of this discussion, is that christian leaders (if they ever actually did) have abandoned calling for the death of non-christians many centuries ago! By contrast, islamic leaders are issuing fatwahs and calling for jihad against christians and jews and american citizens etc. as recently as last week!
And the outcry against such leadership by the peaceful, moderate muslims, has been woefully silent.

Bush may be a christian but he not only didn't try to call christianity to arms against islam he very directly declared this was a war against terrorists not islam so that comparison is way out of line.
Whether that distinction is lost on a people who are acustomed to the religious leaders controlling the government is another issue.

[Behemoth]

And Birdseye is right, Christians have done far worse things in history. But they rarely beheaded people, they found a much more humane way, death by burn and stragulation.

Yet again, i must correct you by saying that it was catholicism and the catholic leaders of that time who agitaded the "crusades" please make a distiction between the two because they are not one in the same...

[Pugwash]

How so?

1. Police state.
2. Population disarmament.
3. Moving to the extreme right wing; totalitarianism/fascism.
4. Majority of population is racist/snobby/filled with hatred; can feel it if sensitive enough.

It will get a lot worse before it has a time of turmoil, after which it will fortunately get back to being nice.

1) wrong!
2) whats wrong with that?
3) what the fk are you talking about?
4) do you mean "from what the US media has CHOSEN to show me blah blah bla" or are you there? maybe you are tele-empathic like that chick from star trek? do you wear a leotard also?

ps 1 and 3 apply to the US far more than Britain so I just dont see where you are coming from here. maybe you could provide some examples to illustrate 1 and 3? wait... throw in 4 while your at it cause that doesnt make any sense either.

[Zuruck]

So, are Catholics not Christian?

I forgot to add this, I have a question that was talked about already and it's an interesting point. The whole "born again" thing, how exactly does that work? Bush was a alcoholic, cocaine addicted partier in his early days, so he repents and now he's straight as an arrow? And he's forgiven? So if I lead a life of debauchery and then at the last moment, all I have to do is accept God and everything I did to everyone is forgotten about. That's kind of weird...I'll destroy myself and everyone around me but then repent and all will be well.

[Pugwash]

Under Catholocism if a serial killer truely repents before death he will be admitted to heaven.
The born again thing is like a mulligan or a "do over". anything that happened before doesnt count.

the spiritual get out of jail free card is a good way to attract followers.

[Zuruck]

seems kind of hokey to me. Lothar goes through life not even jay walking once. Sex, drugs, rock n roll for me...and I get to the same place as him. ???

[TheCope]

Bush may be a christian but he not only didn't try to call christianity to arms against islam he very directly declared this was a war against terrorists not islam so that comparison is way out of line.

In my humble half in the bag opinion: I think George Bush did a good job differentiating between Islam and the war on the terror (there was that "crusade" remark that was total clown shoes).

Maybe Iâ??m just a sucker? I will admit to anyone that I have modified my views a lot on Bush. He should have never been voted in at all... families should never run our country.

In Minneapolis we have a huge Somali population... and they have as varied views as white born Americans. Some think Bush is a murderer and some are like "good, get rid of those criminals, they destroy peace in our world."

This could very well be the most complex war in history, and South East Asia was real complex.

I was always the paranoid hippie Hendrix wanna beâ?¦ but Iâ??m ★■◆●ing sick of this bull★■◆● train bombing stuff. I mean, itâ??s a million times worse than a techno DJ calling himself a â??musicianâ?

[Jeff250]

seems kind of hokey to me. Lothar goes through life not even jay walking once. Sex, drugs, rock n roll for me...and I get to the same place as him. ???

Jesus gave a nice parable about it...
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=47;

[Top Gun]

Zuruck, contrary to what some may have said, Catholics are definitely Christians. We believe that Christ is the Messiah and follow his teachings.

The concept of being "born again" is rather different for Catholics and Protestants. This page describes the Catholic viewpoint.

Regarding a "deathbed conversion," which can also slightly tie into the "born-again" concept, it's not as simple as described above. For Catholics, at least, one must be without mortal sin (a seriously wrong action committed deliberately with forethought) in order to eventually attain heaven after death. (The concept of purgatory can come into play here, but I won't attempt to describe that in this thread.) Catholics are forgiven from mortal sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, during which one confesses one's sins to a priest, who acts as the earthly representative of Christ. (Reconciliation is included as part of the Anointing of the Sick, which is performed if a person is seriously ill or injured or is to undergo major surgery.) If a person truly repents of what they have done and accomplishes their penance, their sins are forgiven. In that sense, a person near the end of their life could be absolved of their sins and attain heaven. However, this is far different from an at-a-whim "conversion" on one's deathbed. Jeff's link is also enlightening on this matter.

Regarding the evils that Christians have perpetuated in the past, we all know that they exist; I know that I, for one, am ashamed of what the name of Christ has been used to justify at certain times in the past. However, one thing that no one should forget is that the majority of these events are in the past, often several hundred years old. Christians today are no more responsible for the atrocities committed during than the Crusades than German children are for the Holocaust. However, as Will mentioned above, certain extremist Muslim clerics are calling for the deaths of "infidels" this very day. While the West has moved far beyond such extremism, much of the Middle East still languishes in it, and those who would see it ended do not have strong enough of a voice. However it is accomplished, this situation has to change for that region to finally find peace.

[Behemoth]

So, are Catholics not Christian?

I forgot to add this, I have a question that was talked about already and it's an interesting point. The whole "born again" thing, how exactly does that work? Bush was a alcoholic, cocaine addicted partier in his early days, so he repents and now he's straight as an arrow? And he's forgiven? So if I lead a life of debauchery and then at the last moment, all I have to do is accept God and everything I did to everyone is forgotten about. That's kind of weird...I'll destroy myself and everyone around me but then repent and all will be well.

No catholics are not christian, also im not going to get into whether george bush is or is not anymore as the only factual basis i could use is rather shallow.

But as for repentance, if it is too hard for you to understand then just leave it alone dont even worry about it Jesus himself said his message wouldnt be for all to accept but its still there..

Also on the "weird" idea that you would be forgiven is the same thing as if you loved someone so much that you would do ANYTHING for them, even give your life so they would live and be safe its not very hard to understand at all.

[Behemoth]

Zuruck, contrary to what some may have said, Catholics are definitely Christians. We believe that Christ is the Messiah and follow his teachings.

The concept of being "born again" is rather different for Catholics and Protestants. This page describes the Catholic viewpoint.

Regarding a "deathbed conversion," which can also slightly tie into the "born-again" concept, it's not as simple as described above. For Catholics, at least, one must be without mortal sin (a seriously wrong action committed deliberately with forethought) in order to eventually attain heaven after death. (The concept of purgatory can come into play here, but I won't attempt to describe that in this thread.) Catholics are forgiven from mortal sin through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, during which one confesses one's sins to a priest, who acts as the earthly representative of Christ. (Reconciliation is included as part of the Anointing of the Sick, which is performed if a person is seriously ill or injured or is to undergo major surgery.) If a person truly repents of what they have done and accomplishes their penance, their sins are forgiven. In that sense, a person near the end of their life could be absolved of their sins and attain heaven. However, this is far different from an at-a-whim "conversion" on one's deathbed. Jeff's link is also enlightening on this matter.

Regarding the evils that Christians have perpetuated in the past, we all know that they exist; I know that I, for one, am ashamed of what the name of Christ has been used to justify at certain times in the past. However, one thing that no one should forget is that the majority of these events are in the past, often several hundred years old. Christians today are no more responsible for the atrocities committed during than the Crusades than German children are for the Holocaust. However, as Will mentioned above, certain extremist Muslim clerics are calling for the deaths of "infidels" this very day. While the West has moved far beyond such extremism, much of the Middle East still languishes in it, and those who would see it ended do not have strong enough of a voice. However it is accomplished, this situation has to change for that region to finally find peace.

TG, even though i dont want this thread to turn out ending like a religion debate instead of what it was meant for, i would ask you to please tell me where in the scriptures that you claim to believe in does it say to "confess your sins to an earthly representation of Christ"?

In all of the bible that I myself have actually read no where in the new testament does it EVER say its alright for someone to represent God on earth, except Christ himself.

So your whole theolgy and religion itself is based on fallacy and lies its just another "doctrine" of which paul warned about, I could keep going but its completely useless, as i said before even my ex-girlfriend thought that Jesus came from rome, and that he was crucified there...Thats what her religion teacher taught her, So on that note i just wanted to explain to the readers to make sure they dont believe in the misconception that implies that christianity is the same as catholocism, because it is absolutely not...One more thing, if You are such a CHRISTian how could you EVER say your "ashamed" of what the name of CHRIST has "caused"?? makes no sense and that post was completely obscure.

[Top Gun]

You're very right; if we're going to debate anything, I'd rather take it elsewhere, so that this thread doesn't get cluttered up. I will leave you with a few closing thoughts, though. I don't see how my post can be considered "obscure" in any way; I was trying to address a few issues that came up earler in the thread that I felt I could expand on. You also seem to have misread what I wrote. I did not say I was ashamed of what Christ's name has caused; rather, I said I was ashamed of what some people throughout history have used Christ's name to justify (things along the lines of the sack of Jerusalem during the Crusades, for instance). There's a huge difference there. As for your girlfriend, she was either asleep during religion class or had the world's worst teacher; no self-respecting Catholic educator would make an error like that. Regarding the theological points you raised, let me leave you with two quotes from the New Testament that I believe to be pertinent. If I've paid attention to the readings at Mass, I seem to recall Christ saying to Peter, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven, and whoever's sins you hold bound are held bound." Seems like justification for confessing one's sins, at least to me. Or how about Christ's words establishing Simon Peter as the first head of the Church: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church." Finally, what of Christ's words to his disciples at the time of his Ascension: "Go and make disciples of all nations; baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By what I believe, at least, these quotations and others establish the authority that Christ granted to his disciples, and Peter in particular; this authority, in turn, passed down to their successors, the bishops. A certain website I've found, Catholic Answers, explains Catholic doctrine on many of these issues much more elegantly than I could ever hope to. If you want to continue this discussion, I think it would be a good idea to take it to PMs.

[Lothar]

So if I lead a life of debauchery and then at the last moment, all I have to do is accept God and everything I did to everyone is forgotten about.

Yes.

---

When I have the time and focus, I'll split this thread... for now, if you're going to reply to both the original point and the current religious discussion, please keep those replies separate.