IE7 beta.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:37 pm

It damn well better not come out like this!

Tyranny · Post by **Tyranny** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:39 pm

[quote="Browser"]The image â??http://4sure.co.nz/temp/ie7.gifâ?

De Rigueur · Post by **De Rigueur** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:39 pm

I can't see the image

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:40 pm

Jebus! Give me 60 seconds to fix it why dontcha??!!11one!exclamation

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:45 pm

FTP is corrupting my uploads - using both IE and CoreFTP. Sorry - can't show you the **excellent** screen grab!

Suffice to say - if you are an MSDN member - DO NOT download and install IE7 beta.

It's a complete joke. LMFAO@MSFT

Mobius relaxes in the knowledge Firefox is still king!

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:52 pm

http://www.flexbeta.net/main/articles.p ... how&id=102

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 6:00 pm

Mobius wrote:Mobius relaxes in the knowledge Firefox is still king!

Wow why are you gushing? Did you work on Firefox? Do you have a vested interest in that particular program being better than another?

But even so, there is one Firefox feature I really want, and that's middle-click open in new window. That's pretty much the only thing Firefox has that IE doesn't that I use. The article said that middle clicking opened new tabs, but I want to know if it opens new windows if tabbed browsing is disabled.

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:40 pm

I was expecting IE7 to be part othe GA program.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:25 pm

Yeah - I *do* have a vested interest in the uptake of Firefox. I'm a developer, and now that FF has achieved around 10% of the market, it's now a commercial necessity to code so everything works in Moz and IE.

FYI: FF/Moz market share is anywhere form 10% to 37% depending where you go to check usage stats.

The best method of developing sites is to code for Moz and then fix what's broken in IE - rather than the reverse (which is what daft developers do - or the even more stupid ones who code for IE and then ..... nothing!)

The reason I don't want to see IE7 as a great browser, are because I hope FF/Moz continue to make inroads into the browser market. Once it achieves 15% or more, there'll simply be no excuse **ANY** developer could have for not coding to support it.

(You'd never stop even 5% of your bricks-and-mortar customers from coming into your store because they were wearing the wrong socks - so there's no reason to screw people who use FF/Moz.)

World War Woodi · Post by **World War Woodi** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:09 pm

Well my wife uses firefox and I really like to screw-------um oh wait.....you meant ...um ...yeah what you said.

Hey mobi, I have a big prob with firefox constantly losing my gd bookmarks, update, books gone ! WTF? even just for no damn reason at all, poof! books gone! WTH?
And I have found them and backed em up, but it was a pain. Why the hell cant FF just take care of business
w/o this pain in the butt?

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:15 am

It would be nice if the Firefox team could fix a gaping memory leak that's been present since day one of release so that it wont have to ballon to using half a gig of virtual memory after a while.

Topher · Post by **Topher** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:14 pm

My main gripe with IE7: You can't place the menu at the top above the address bar.

EDIT: I just read on the IEBlog that this is because if it was below or moveable, it would be spoofable by some other plugin. If it's at top and can only be at top, it's never spoofable. I'm sure there's a better way to do this, such as perminantly placing the menu bar above the address bar too, but who knows, it's a good justification.

Other than that, it seems like a step in the right direction.

"Excellent" screen grab? Give me a break, you're complaining about a beta that was released only for developers to begin migrating their tools and websites from IE6 to IE7, not for every joe-shmoe to compare it to their favorite feature in firefox. Don't be so naive.

Oh no! It doesn't pass the Acid2 test! Guess what, neither does firefox.

Oh no! They lost the stop and refresh button! Read the manual.

Oh no! They didn't do anything innovative! Combining most of the toolbar buttons into one and having the small blank tab that expands into a new one is something I don't see in firefox. They may or may not be good ideas, it's the whole point of the beta. But OH BURN! FIREFOX DOESN'T HAVE IT!!

Oh no! They copied tabbed browsing and the search box, now it's just as good as firefox and I won't have anything really significant to complain about!

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:28 pm

*looks up* Oh, that's right, Firefox has a search box... I never remember it...

To be honest, both browsers seem to have their own rendering issues, but I have noticed Firefox has fewer of them. IE6 doesn't even support some features of CSS2... which isn't that hard to get right, surely.

Main thing I found in Firefox that annoys me is that divs are still rather hard to control the parameters of. Trying to get a sidebar to extend the full distance to the bottom of the screen is virtually impossible to do with some setups...

fliptw · Post by **fliptw** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:11 am

Mobius wrote:The best method of developing sites is to code for Moz and then fix what's broken in IE - rather than the reverse...

That is as assinine as doing it the other way round.

lets generalize Mobius's statement:

design for broswer x, then fix for browser y. That only ensures that a site only looks proper works in one browser.

What about a, b, and 0x43?

How about this: design to standards, tweak for individual browers.

D3Help is still a good example why Mobius should not be asked for web site design advice.

Sirius · Post by **Sirius** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:25 am

Believe you me, six or seven years ago much worse designs were the norm...

Nirvana · Post by **Nirvana** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:27 am

Tetrad wrote:But even so, there is one Firefox feature I really want, and that's middle-click open in new window. That's pretty much the only thing Firefox has that IE doesn't that I use. The article said that middle clicking opened new tabs, but I want to know if it opens new windows if tabbed browsing is disabled.

You can actually use shift+click to get this.. I know it's a little more painful than a mid-click, but it's faster than right clicking and selecting "open new window".

Tetrad · Post by **Tetrad** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:58 am

Oh I know, that's what I usually do.

JMEaT · Post by **JMEaT** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:13 am

Looks neato. When is the release date?

Nitrofox125 · Post by **Nitrofox125** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:19 pm

I love it, at least a lot more than IE 6. Mobi, this is where you come in. Everything that I coded for Firefox and said "screw it" for IE users and it didn't work now works in IE7. It has major CSS compatibility improvements, it accurately renders semi-transparent PNG's, and it FINALLY introduces tabbed browsing in IE. Personally, my main web browser is Safari 2, but when I am testing on the PC it's now a tossup for me.

Jeff250 · Post by **Jeff250** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:48 pm

That's good news. Unfortunately, I've read that "fixed" positioning still doesn't work.

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:32 pm

woodi wrote:Well my wife uses firefox and I really like to screw-------um oh wait.....you meant ...um ...yeah what you said.

Hey mobi, I have a big prob with firefox constantly losing my gd bookmarks, update, books gone ! WTF? even just for no damn reason at all, poof! books gone! WTH?
And I have found them and backed em up, but it was a pain. Why the hell cant FF just take care of business
w/o this pain in the butt?

ive never had that problem? interesting to hear. how do you run your updates?

World War Woodi · Post by **World War Woodi** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:02 pm

I click on the update availible icon on the upper right in mozilla and it down loads to desktop, then I close moz from the processes in task manager and install the update, which oddly seems like it is installing itself over the old one.

Last time it made two profiles though one with the updated version, and one without. Maybe Im doing something wrong?

Niether profile had any bookmarks, that time.
The last time I just started moz and the books were gone and I have no idea why.

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:07 pm

bookmarks are saved in a file called "bookmarks.html".

AceCombat · Post by **AceCombat** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:20 pm

woodi wrote:I click on the update availible icon on the upper right in mozilla and it down loads to desktop, then I close moz from the processes in task manager and install the update, which oddly seems like it is installing itself over the old one.

Last time it made two profiles though one with the updated version, and one without. Maybe Im doing something wrong?

Niether profile had any bookmarks, that time.
The last time I just started moz and the books were gone and I have no idea why.

thats the exact same way i update mine.....? i have never lost my bookmarks or hell even my history! which is a good 3/4 year old......

Top, you say its a file, i wonder why his ignores that file, and mine doesnt?

Top Wop · Post by **Top Wop** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:07 pm

I have no idea, id post that problem in a Firefox forum since this is most definately a known issue since the same thing happened to me before, but it was during the Beta days. Chances are the old profile got de-registered and a new one was made with a blank slate. Id just copy over the old to the new but there are files in there that need to be modified to point to the new directory, so it gets complicated.

Now I know this topic is a week old but rather than creating a new one I just thought I would post this article here about IE7:

http://www.windowsitpro.com/windowspaul ... 47208.html

So basically IE 7 will be the same POS it always was except it has tabs. Whooptedoo.

Nitrofox125 · Post by **Nitrofox125** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:13 pm

Interesting article.

Heh, just took the acid2 test with IE7.... I get a huge block of red. Yay.

Topher · Post by **Topher** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:51 pm

"...Microsoft's admission that it will fail the crucial Acid2 browser-compliance test."

Come on...no browser passes the test. No browser implements CSS fully.

What people don't seem to understand is that developing software is like building a mile high sky scraper with rooms that move around and change arrangement at the same time not knowing what the guy below you is building while you're way up high doing something else.

It's not easy to do successfully and nitpicking things such as small outlier points in standards is ridiculous. Implementing a standard 100% is very, very, exponentially hard. Worse, if you break previously working websites, people will boycott your browser even more.

Of course if you want that software to be secure, it's like building a mile high sky scraper that needs to repel laser beams from space from any direction at any time. Most of the things in IE7 were under the hood. We'll have to wait and see if the improvements make the browser more secure or not.

And evaluating a product based on its beta release that does not include all of its features is beyond naive, it's just stupid. Report its flaws now, but complain and boycott when it's out in final release.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:16 am

/me dumps some gas on the thread...

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/66277

There's 2 features that I like in Firefox that I've not seen in IE.

I can highlight text in any page, right-click and to go a search instantly... that and I have a place to type a Google search without going to a Google search...

Well, there's that tabbed browser thing too... oh yea, and no ActiveX and let's see, what else....

Topher · Post by **Topher** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:05 pm

Sarge wrote:/me dumps some gas on the thread...

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/66277

There's 2 features that I like in Firefox that I've not seen in IE.

I can highlight text in any page, right-click and to go a search instantly... that and I have a place to type a Google search without going to a Google search...

Well, there's that tabbed browser thing too... oh yea, and no ActiveX and let's see, what else....

You can do both those things with Google's toolbar. IE7 also has the "search engine textbox" and has tabbed browsing.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:35 pm

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Kyouryuu · Post by **Kyouryuu** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:00 am

Tetrad wrote:But even so, there is one Firefox feature I really want, and that's middle-click open in new window.

Maybe the Mouse Gestures plug-in can help? I know it lets you arbitrarily assign functions to different gestures. Perhaps it can be made to rig buttons too?

For me, it doesn't matter what improvements IE7 brings. I'll never use IE unless there is a website I simply must get to that only functions in IE. Any other site I've just stopped visiting. If they don't have the sense to support anything other than IE, don't expect me to visit. My reason is one of security and peace of mind. IE has and always will be a flawed and hazardous program to use on the Internet. It's what all of the advertisers target and all of the virus authors target. Microsoft is the victim of its own success.

As for the web sites I make - I build them for Firefox, but make them W3 standards compliant. If IE can't handle basic HTML 4.0 Transitional standards, tough beans.

The other tech I've set my sights on for mass destruction is Flash. Flash does a lot of cool things, but unfortunately 99% of its usage is to circumvent pop-up blocking and deliver advertisements. Perfect waste of something useful, but I'm better off without Flash. And sites that support Flash as the only means of viewing them... well, forget me as a potential visitor.