Profiling

woodchip · Post by **woodchip** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:57 am

So Fernman, just how would one differentiate a Ugandan christian from a Ugandan Muslim or a Ugandan Jew? Is there some racial characteristic that stands out as does middle eastern here in the states?

roid · Post by **roid** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:01 pm

woodchip, middle eastern does not a muslim make.

roid wrote:i just realised this email isn't actually saying racial profiling. it's RELIGIOUS profiling.

it doesn't say arab in there once, it says MUSLIM.

this is a no-no. we all know that most moderate muslims don't consider extremist muslims to even BE muslims.
much like you wouldn't consider the Ku Klux Klan to be true christians.

it should also be said that in my part of the world muslims arn't even arab - they are INDONESIAN.
212 million indonesian Muslims on my doorstep. hey yeah, lets profile them all

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:24 pm

Roid,
I strongly suggest you do some research on what a "true Muslim" believes, at least what they should believe if they follow the Qu'ran. Once you do you'll be perfectly content with religious profiling in this case.
And before you throw "let's profile all religions" back in my face, there is no other mainstream religion that advocates violence toward non-believers.

Ferno · Post by **Ferno** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:13 pm

woody: those that are in the LRA.

duh.

will_kill · Post by **will_kill** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:55 pm

Fusion pimp wrote:Roid,
I strongly suggest you do some research on what a "true Muslim" believes, at least what they should believe if they follow the Qu'ran. Once you do you'll be perfectly content with religious profiling in this case.
And before you throw "let's profile all religions" back in my face, there is no other mainstream religion that advocates violence toward non-believers.

ermm...not to be contrary but I can think of one. There is a religious book with a similiar sounding name...it prolly would'nt be good for me to post the info here tho'...sorry, you'll have to guess or research or pm me.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 3:46 pm

Fusion pimp wrote:Roid,
I strongly suggest you do some research on what a "true Muslim" believes, at least what they should believe if they follow the Qu'ran. Once you do you'll be perfectly content with religious profiling in this case.
And before you throw "let's profile all religions" back in my face, there is no other mainstream religion that advocates violence toward non-believers.

You know, its funny when people start using this arguement, yet conveniently ignore certain parts of the bible that encourage stonings, and outright murder. Just because a few extremeists want to "kill all infidels" doesn't mean they all do, just like not every christian is out stoning folks for adultry or murdering their neighbor because they worked on the sabbath. Before you go on a persecution complex, I suggest you go out and actually MEET face to face the people that you're lumping with the radicals. I have, and you know what? The ones I've met were some of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing on a college campus.

Pandora · Post by **Pandora** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:57 pm

MD-2389 wrote:Before you go on a persecution complex, I suggest you go out and actually MEET face to face the people that you're lumping with the radicals. I have, and you know what? The ones I've met were some of the nicest people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing on a college campus.

I completely second that.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:30 pm

....Just because a few extremeists want to "kill all infidels" doesn't mean they all do, just like not every christian is out stoning folks for adultry or murdering their neighbor because they worked on the sabbath....

Your comparison is a bit lopsided...centuries of progress on one side of the equation is the reason, and that is why there are no christians stoning people in america or europe.....there are however, radical muslims setting off bombs and killing innocent people in those places!

There is a big difference in finding ancient reference to violence in christian documents and modern muslims actively perpetrating violence on non-believers.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:03 pm

MD-
I'm not ignoring anything. The problem is you're too young, naive and victimized by the media movement to realize the risk these people pose to our nation. You're too fearful of stepping on the toes of the people who are planning to KILL YOU and you YOUR LOVEDONES!! You want to treat these people "fairly" and "equally" and I can't understand your sympathetic nature toward a group of people who are planning YOUR death, probably as we speak. The only explaination is, you just DON'T KNOW!
Our community has quite a large Muslim population. Most of the Muslims I know grew up in the middle east and are transplants to the states within the past 10sref-15 years. They are not American highschool/college students who claim to be Muslim because their parents do.They have real world experience and will tell you stories that will send shivers up your spine. They say that most are not terrorist, but strongly support terrorist action against the west(hey! That's us!). They will tell you that we are laughed at because they know that America has lost its ruggedness and will not strike back with any real force and even if we did, it would not stop them. Striking back with real force(such as nukes, etc) will only add to their contempt for the west. They have made it clear to me that we CANNOT stop them, we can only slow them and perhaps hinder an attack, but it will only be postponed.
I asked them if they think Bush has thwarted any attacks because we have not yet been attacked since 9/11. They laughed and told me that Bush's attempts are being used as a tool to built more resistence toward the west, thus more attacks. They explained that there is are huge numbers of terrorist cells in other countries that are not being focused on, like Singapore, philippines and even small places like Granada and Panama. Ironically, they told me this a few years ago and I saw a documentary on the Discovery channel that confirmed this just a couple of months ago.

Peruse this:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908746.html

I've spent hours with these folks chatting about this topic and I don't have the desire to be more specific, it wouldn't do any good. Again, these people grew-up with terrorism..it was in their backyard. Their family members were victims of terrorist attacks. These people they grew up with weren't "extremists", they're freeking Muslims.
Spare me your "save the spotted owl" talk until you've seen a spotted owl.When you grow up, you'll realize that there are people who want to hurt simply because you're American...Weird how that works, you want to spare them simply because they're Muslim and they want to kill you simply because you're American. Be sure to smile at them just before the bomb those "extremists" are toting goes off in your face.

Profiling? F*%#ing-A.. profile away.

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:19 pm

fusion pimp that was pretty disorganised in distinction. i don't think you really want to say that muslims want to kill you and your lovedones.
but that's what it seems your post was saying.

if your muslim friends publicly mock your government administration's stupidity and lack of forsight in their war on terror, place your anger where it's due. don't go getting angry at muslims just coz they are saying what you don't want to hear.

their opinions are shared by more than just muslims.

They have real world experience and will tell you stories that will send shivers up your spine. They say that most are not terrorist, but strongly support terrorist action against the west(hey! That's us!). They will tell you that we are laughed at because they know that America has lost its ruggedness and will not strike back with any real force and even if we did, it would not stop them. Striking back with real force(such as nukes, etc) will only add to their contempt for the west. They have made it clear to me that we CANNOT stop them, we can only slow them and perhaps hinder an attack, but it will only be postponed.
I asked them if they think Bush has thwarted any attacks because we have not yet been attacked since 9/11. They laughed and told me that Bush's attempts are being used as a tool to built more resistence toward the west, thus more attacks. They explained that there is are huge numbers of terrorist cells in other countries that are not being focused on, like Singapore, philippines and even small places like Granada and Panama. Ironically, they told me this a few years ago and I saw a documentary on the Discovery channel that confirmed this just a couple of months ago.

well, it's good you now know this. i can tell you that this information, while it may have amazed you, is common knownledge for all people who care to know what's actually going on instead of swallowing everything their local propeganda outlets feed them.

yes, to get a glimpse of the truth is shocking, but don't get confused and attack the messenger. your anger is misplaced on muslims.

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:44 pm

fusion pimp that was pretty disorganised in distinction. i don't think you really want to say that muslims want to kill you and your lovedones.
but that's what it seems your post was saying.

Hey, thanks for trying to clear up what I thought I made clear. That's exactly what I am saying.

if your muslim friends publicly mock your government administration's stupidity and lack of forsight in their war on terror, place your anger where it's due. don't go getting angry at muslims just coz they are saying what you don't want to hear.

Are you kidding me? Are you retarded( developmentally disabled for you PC folks)?
Don't get mad at the people who want to kill us?
I'm supposed to be mad at our admin for doing something? Or, should I be mad at the former admin who refused to do anything, despite being warned several times?

their opinions are shared by more than just muslims.

I thought everyone in the world loved us except the Muslims?!
Look, we're discussing profiling of Muslims, not other terrorist groups. If you'd like to give me an example of another terrorist group that has attacked us in the past 10,20,30 years, or are planning to attack us in the near future I'll be happy to lend an ear. The topic is Muslim terrorists.

well, it's good you now know this. i can tell you that this information, while it may have amazed you, is common knownledge for all people who care to know what's actually going on instead of swallowing everything their local propeganda outlets feed them.

It didn't amaze me(well, some of the stories did). I was laying it out for MD in case he didn't know. I can't imagine a fella knowing their intentions and still being in favor of Muslims.

yes, to get a glimpse of the truth is shocking, but don't get confused and attack the messenger. your anger is misplaced on muslims.

What?! If it's the truth, as you suggest.. how is my anger misplaced?
Shall I be angry with Alec Baldwin because Muslims hi-jacked our planes and used them as bombs to kill Americans?

Or maybe I should be angry at Woody Allen for terrorist bombings around the world.

Wake-up!

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:49 pm

To save myself the frustration of listening to feel-gooders tell me how/why I should be in favor of accommodating terrorist Muslim groups in targeting my fellow Americans, I will avoid this thread in the future.

Carry on..

roid · Post by **roid** » Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:03 pm

uh, ok i'm not sure if that means i should not bother replying, or if it means that you won't reply to my next post (being this one). oh well, i guess someone else from your camp can try to pick up the ball if they feel up to it...

i was referring to your muslim friends telling you how they understand america.
the truth i was referring to isn't that muslims do have these opinions about america. the truth i was referring to was that these opinions are VALID AND TRUE. just stating the truth doesn't make them dangerous unless you consider information dangerous. they speak the truth.

re-reading your post, i believe it hinges on this segment:

Fusion Pimp wrote:They say that most are not terrorist, but strongly support terrorist action against the west(hey! That's us!)

*shrug* this doesn't send a chill up my spine.
the years before 2001 i read counterculture politics heavily so by the time the WTC buildings were destroyed i was not surprised. i had no delusions that "the west is great and everyone loves us for we do no wrong". when we ★■◆● up, there's consequences. how these fuckups interact with the culture, politics and religion is interesting and predictable. the west dropped the ball on that one.
to treat muslims as the problem is not the answer.

that's why i'm concerned about this kindof of religious targetted profiling. it should be used as nothing more than a desperate last option short term measure (kinda like war), to bide time until properly thought out longer term solutions have time to take effect to reduce the problem. this kindof thing only fucks things up more in the longrun (again, like war), so should be avoided if it can be.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:01 am

Will Robinson wrote:Your comparison is a bit lopsided...centuries of progress on one side of the equation is the reason, and that is why there are no christians stoning people in america or europe.....there are however, radical muslims setting off bombs and killing innocent people in those places!

There is a big difference in finding ancient reference to violence in christian documents and modern muslims actively perpetrating violence on non-believers.

Congrats Will, you missed the entire point of my referencing them. He said the muslim holy book was the only book that encouraged hatred. My previous post proved otherwise.

Fusion pimp wrote:MD-
I'm not ignoring anything. The problem is you're too young, naive and victimized by the media movement to realize the risk these people pose to our nation. You're too fearful of stepping on the toes of the people who are planning to KILL YOU and you YOUR LOVEDONES!! You want to treat these people "fairly" and "equally" and I can't understand your sympathetic nature toward a group of people who are planning YOUR death, probably as we speak. The only explaination is, you just DON'T KNOW!

Or that you're a racist bigot. Nice of you to lump every one of them into a single group. Nice tactic by the way. You of all people should know that age not maturity make. But then again, I'm the "ignorant" one here, so what would I know?

I find this rather amusing since you don't even know how old I am.

Our community has quite a large Muslim population. Most of the Muslims I know grew up in the middle east and are transplants to the states within the past 10sref-15 years. They are not American highschool/college students who claim to be Muslim because their parents do.They have real world experience and will tell you stories that will send shivers up your spine. They say that most are not terrorist, but strongly support terrorist action against the west(hey! That's us!). They will tell you that we are laughed at because they know that America has lost its ruggedness and will not strike back with any real force and even if we did, it would not stop them. Striking back with real force(such as nukes, etc) will only add to their contempt for the west. They have made it clear to me that we CANNOT stop them, we can only slow them and perhaps hinder an attack, but it will only be postponed.

Uh huh. So the next time a black dude robs a Cicle K, can I lump you with him? After all, what's a little more racism?

I asked them if they think Bush has thwarted any attacks because we have not yet been attacked since 9/11. They laughed and told me that Bush's attempts are being used as a tool to built more resistence toward the west, thus more attacks. They explained that there is are huge numbers of terrorist cells in other countries that are not being focused on, like Singapore, philippines and even small places like Granada and Panama. Ironically, they told me this a few years ago and I saw a documentary on the Discovery channel that confirmed this just a couple of months ago.

Uh huh, so you met a few radicals that were sabre rattling. Big deal. I've met my fair share of fundamentalists, and you know what? They're nothing but snivelling cowards. But then again, to you they're all radicals, and I'm just a "young whippersnapper" that just "doesn't know any better." Please mister big racist man, saaaaave me!

I've spent hours with these folks chatting about this topic and I don't have the desire to be more specific, it wouldn't do any good. Again, these people grew-up with terrorism..it was in their backyard. Their family members were victims of terrorist attacks. These people they grew up with weren't "extremists", they're freeking Muslims.
Spare me your "save the spotted owl" talk until you've seen a spotted owl.When you grow up, you'll realize that there are people who want to hurt simply because you're American...Weird how that works, you want to spare them simply because they're Muslim and they want to kill you simply because you're American. Be sure to smile at them just before the bomb those "extremists" are toting goes off in your face.

Profiling? F*%#ing-A.. profile away.

heh, by your own logic, I should lump every christian with the ilk of Fred Phelps. Congrats dude, you just made yourself look like an utter ass. I challenge you to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that EVERY muslim is a terrorist. I await your evidence mister holier than thou.

Will Robinson · Post by **Will Robinson** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:09 am

MD-2389 wrote:
Will Robinson wrote:Your comparison is a bit lopsided...centuries of progress on one side of the equation is the reason, and that is why there are no christians stoning people in america or europe.....there are however, radical muslims setting off bombs and killing innocent people in those places!

There is a big difference in finding ancient reference to violence in christian documents and modern muslims actively perpetrating violence on non-believers.
Congrats Will, you missed the entire point of my referencing them. He said the muslim holy book was the only book that encouraged hatred. My previous post proved otherwise.

Well I didn't realize you wanted to isolate your comments from the context of this debate and you only meant to inform us that the bible also contains references to violent acts. Consider it duly noted.

However, if you would like your comments to be considered in the context of the current debate, the debate you injected your comments into, regarding profiling a certain group of people because there are people of that group seeking to set off bombs in subways and busses...well in that case your comparison is way off.
Again, because although there are references of violent punishment in the bible there are no christian groups staging surprise attacks in public places stoning non-christians to death!

Are there references to stoning as punishment in the bible - Yes.
Did you mention it because you wanted to suggest we shouldn't just profile middle eastern looking people of the suicide bomber age and instead we should also include christian looking people of the stone-you-to death-age as well?
No!?!? Well then why did you mention it? To advance our knowledge of ancient christian punishment trivia?!?

The point you are so clumsily dancing around is that there are middle eastern looking people who are all radical muslims, who are all in the age range of 17 to 40 years old, that are currently setting of bombs killing unsuspecting people in busses and subways etc.
And in spite of historical references to stoning in christian texts there are not any christians going around stoning people to death.

So, in the context of this debate, the distinction between middle eastern males between the ages of 17 and 40 and all other people (including christians carrying stones) is a wise distinction to make if one is looking to maximise his efforts in identifying the next bomber before he strikes!

If anyone ends up stoned to death we will adjust the scope of our profile accordingly....

Just a friendly bit of advice:
When political correctness puts you in direct conflict with common sense, go with common sense.

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:32 am

Will Robinson wrote:Well I didn't realize you wanted to isolate your comments from the context of this debate and you only meant to inform us that the bible also contains references to violent acts. Consider it duly noted.

So noted.

However, if you would like your comments to be considered in the context of the current debate, the debate you injected your comments into, regarding profiling a certain group of people because there are people of that group seeking to set off bombs in subways and busses...well in that case your comparison is way off.
Again, because although there are references of violent punishment in the bible there are no christian groups staging surprise attacks in public places stoning non-christians to death!

Thats not the point. My point is that the qu'ran (sp?) isn't the only holy book that incites violence, and that if followers of the bible were to take every word LITERALLY and follow everything, that they would be JUST AS BAD as the muslim extremeists. If he had seperated the extremeists from the moderates (whom vastly outnumber the radicals), there wouldn't be much of an issue here. Furthermore, nowhere did I ever say that christians SHOULD or DO CURRENTLY the things I previously mentioned.

Are there references to stoning as punishment in the bible - Yes.
Did you mention it because you wanted to suggest we shouldn't just profile middle eastern looking people of the suicide bomber age and instead we should also include christian looking people of the stone-you-to death-age as well?
No!?!? Well then why did you mention it? To advance our knowledge of ancient christian punishment trivia?!?

See above.

The point you are so clumsily dancing around is that there are middle eastern looking people who are all radical muslims, who are all in the age range of 17 to 40 years old, that are currently setting of bombs killing unsuspecting people in busses and subways etc.

Are there radical muslims in that agegroup? Of course. The same could be said for just about any religion. The media just happens to focus on the radical muslims because its "popular news". You don't see them reporting on any other terrorist group do you?

And in spite of historical references to stoning in christian texts there are not any christians going around stoning people to death.

Correct, but the reason I used those examples has been elaborated quite clearly above in this post.

So, in the context of this debate, the distinction between middle eastern males between the ages of 17 and 40 and all other people (including christians carrying stones) is a wise distinction to make if one is looking to maximise his efforts in identifying the next bomber before he strikes!

And leaving a gaping hole in your security net. Bright idea. Anyone with a telephone and a few bucks can order a makeup kit and some liquid latex and radically alter their physical appearance. Hell, I could make myself look just like Ferno if I wanted, and no security officer would be the wiser. This also radically opens the way for even more abuse of power. I doubt many of you would support it if they all of a sudden decided to pick on you.

Now, just for kicks, lets just say that they are all "terrorists". In the spirit of fairness, could it work? Probably, but only on those stupid enough to go through commercial airlines or traffic. How many people do you think would be THAT stupid to travel where they would be instantly recognized by security personel? No, they would travel by means that would keep them UNDER the radar. Think stow-a-way. They could even alter their physical appearance as I mentioned above, and enter the US legally and then disappear. (Which is what I imagine a few of the terrorists responsible for 9/11 did.)

This is money that would be more well spent doing other things, like adding more security to our borders to the north and south keeping illegal immigrants out or for paying for better armor protection for our soldiers (some of which have little or no protection at all).

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:01 am

Uh huh. So the next time a black dude robs a Cicle K, can I lump you with him? After all, what's a little more racism?

I've never posted a pic, how did you know I was black?

Gooberman · Post by **Gooberman** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:00 am

Are you trying to tell me that not all pimps are black, Fusion?

TheCope · Post by **TheCope** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:34 am

Fusion pimp wrote:
Uh huh. So the next time a black dude robs a Cicle K, can I lump you with him? After all, what's a little more racism?
I've never posted a pic, how did you know I was black?

After a refrigerator crushed Barry he was re-incarnated as a black man. Barry is currently playing point guard for the New Jersey Nets and is also working on his debut rap album entitled "Street Ball: The Troof".

Fusion pimp · Post by **Fusion pimp** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:31 am

lol@ Goob & Cops!

The point I was trying to make is that he assumed I was black simply because of my name, which isn't as an extreme example, but it shows he's doing exactly what he's claiming those that support profiling in this instance do.

MD- I'm 5'8" with strawberry hair(what's left of it, anyway), shaved with no gaurd(use your imagination) with a goatee/moustache and fish belly white. I dare you to find another whiter than me. While I'm sure you're going to use this against me, I'll tell you that I'm frequently mistaken for a skinhead.

B-

MD-2389 · Post by **MD-2389** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:23 pm

Actually Barry, I was going by your post in the "Why fight state officials" thread, and assumed you were seeing as I've seen black people pulled over for no good reason at all. But meh, its spilled milk.

roid · Post by **roid** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 8:30 pm

Profiling

Should the justice department use profiling techniques?